2 Interesting things in PMPT

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Jay78

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Im reading PMPT at the moment and two things jumped out at me. first, on page 335:

"At Alfalfa's food market on May 8,1995, Jonbenet fell and landed on her nose. It was not broken. 7 and half months later, she tripped and hit her head above the left eye"

what did Schillner include these details? does he think JB was beating beat? also, its interesting that JB was sick almost her whole life with coughs, bad breath and a runny nose.

the second interesting thing on pg.337 from Linda Wilcox:

"Burke wore pullups until he was six. Jonbenet always wore them" "I told police it was curious to me that Burke stopped wetting the bed when he stopped being the focus of Patsy's attention. And that was when JB became a chronic bed-wetter"

i dont know what it means that any kid that got patsy's full attention couldnt stop wetting the bed, but it is intriguing.

another thing that has made me wonder is that Jeff Shapiro states he saw Patsy with her head bowed in church muttering "please,please" he believes she was looking for forgiveness from god.

im sure there will be more as a i read on!!
 
She could have been,at least partially,a high maintenance child.No fault of her own though.Some kids just are.
I say *could because it's not known if any of the visits were due to abuse,but
I think it's entirely possible and maybe more than likely that some were.
 
For what its worth neither friends nor family nor neighbors every witnessed them even correcting the children. Tolerance seemed to be the hallmark of the family. No one ever testified to them even raising a voice that alone lifting a hand to the children. Perhaps they were over indulged. Kept in some ways all at once immature without boundaries and yet in JB case dressed and trained to take on certain affectations of being much older in some ways. Whatever the situation remember there was trauma in that household just from CANCER. How that may have contributed to the behavioural issues you mention would have to be diagnosed by competent child psychologists.



JMO8778 said:
She could have been,at least partially,a high maintenance child.No fault of her own though.Some kids just are.
I say *could because it's not known if any of the visits were due to abuse,but
I think it's entirely possible and maybe more than likely that some were.
Click to expand...
 
coloradokares said:
For what its worth neither friends nor family nor neighbors every witnessed them even correcting the children. Tolerance seemed to be the hallmark of the family. No one ever testified to them even raising a voice that alone lifting a hand to the children. Perhaps they were over indulged. Kept in some ways all at once immature without boundaries and yet in JB case dressed and trained to take on certain affectations of being much older in some ways. Whatever the situation remember there was trauma in that household just from CANCER. How that may have contributed to the behavioural issues you mention would have to be diagnosed by competent child psychologists.
Click to expand...
By high maintenance I mean maybe she needed a lot of medical attn,in the form of dr visits.Some kids have lots of allergies,low immunity,etc.I know someone with a child like that so it does happen.
 
Jay78 said:
Im reading PMPT at the moment and two things jumped out at me. first, on page 335:

"At Alfalfa's food market on May 8,1995, Jonbenet fell and landed on her nose. It was not broken. 7 and half months later, she tripped and hit her head above the left eye"

what did Schillner include these details? does he think JB was beating beat? also, its interesting that JB was sick almost her whole life with coughs, bad breath and a runny nose.

the second interesting thing on pg.337 from Linda Wilcox:

"Burke wore pullups until he was six. Jonbenet always wore them" "I told police it was curious to me that Burke stopped wetting the bed when he stopped being the focus of Patsy's attention. And that was when JB became a chronic bed-wetter"

i dont know what it means that any kid that got patsy's full attention couldnt stop wetting the bed, but it is intriguing.

another thing that has made me wonder is that Jeff Shapiro states he saw Patsy with her head bowed in church muttering "please,please" he believes she was looking for forgiveness from god.

im sure there will be more as a i read on!!
Click to expand...
That can happen to any child, the runny noses and coughs etc.

But the bedwetting is an indication that all was not right in JBR's world.

I think the reason she regressed when being the focus of Patsys attention, shows us that JonBenet had performance issues and too much was expected of her.
Also the bedwetting is a red flag where sexual abuse is concerned.
It could have been a case of both, her struggling to keep up with Mommy Dearest demands and being sexually abused for all we know, or they are one and the same, ie abuse re:corporal punishment.


Jeff Shapiro has since changed his tune, he now thinks the Ramsey's are innocent.
 
coloradokares said:
For what its worth neither friends nor family nor neighbors every witnessed them even correcting the children. Tolerance seemed to be the hallmark of the family. No one ever testified to them even raising a voice that alone lifting a hand to the children. Perhaps they were over indulged. Kept in some ways all at once immature without boundaries and yet in JB case dressed and trained to take on certain affectations of being much older in some ways. Whatever the situation remember there was trauma in that household just from CANCER. How that may have contributed to the behavioural issues you mention would have to be diagnosed by competent child psychologists.
Click to expand...
Noone did, but we have first hand accounts of Patsys underlying rage brimming to the top more than once, so we know she has a fiery temper.

Of course they were, we're talking your classic spoiled 'rich kids' here.
 
I think the reason she regressed when being the focus of Patsys attention, shows us that JonBenet had performance issues and too much was expected of her.
Also the bedwetting is a red flag where sexual abuse is concerned.
It could have been a case of both, her struggling to keep up with Mommy Dearest demands and being sexually abused for all we know, or they are one and the same, ie abuse re:corporal punishment.
Click to expand...

That could be it.

Jeff Shapiro has since changed his tune, he now thinks the Ramsey's are innocent.
Click to expand...

He may have changed back. He was on Bill O'Reilly's program a few days after Patsy's death, and he basically made the police case.
 
OH!!! My grandaughter is very high girlie girl high maintenance. Mainly cause she has been indulged at every whim....now she is 16 and the war of wills is in full swing. You meant medically. Jon Benet may have been one of those little girls who bubble baths and such irritated. However I don't believe the Pediatrician ever did an internal examination of her. So maybe he didn't realize what was found at the autopsy.



JMO8778 said:
By high maintenance I mean maybe she needed a lot of medical attn,in the form of dr visits.Some kids have lots of allergies,low immunity,etc.I know someone with a child like that so it does happen.
Click to expand...
 
JMO8778 said:
By high maintenance I mean maybe she needed a lot of medical attn,in the form of dr visits.Some kids have lots of allergies,low immunity,etc.I know someone with a child like that so it does happen.
Click to expand...

The poor child slept in a bedroom full of stuffed animals, thick curtains, carpet, dirty clothes in a heap, etc...no wonder she had sinus problems.

Most people say that kids nowadays are spoiled. Reason being is that most parents are too lazy to teach their kids manners or discipline them when they do wrong. It takes lot's of time to teach your child right from wrong. The term "spoiled" does not have the same meaning it did decades ago.

IMO, Patsy was a lazy mother who did not put any effort into raising polite and respectful children.

She did not spoil her children....she neglected them.
 
I feel the Ramseys are guilty of alot of things, including her death. But I have to jump in here and speak about bedwetting.
My father wet the bed til he was 12, my brother until he was 10 and my daughter until she was about 9. I can assure you that we have a well adjusted family with no abuse. Bedwetting does tend to run in families and all of the doctors for our family told us that our bedwetters would sleep so deeply that the urge to urinate would not even wake them. As they grew older, sleep patterns change and bodies mature and it stopped.
I am by no means taking up for the Ramseys and the bedwetting, just saying that sometimes it just happens.

What DOES bother me, and hints at abuse is the fact that JB would do it during waking hours and even soil herself as well. I see a bad pattern with those things.
 
Toltec said:
The poor child slept in a bedroom full of stuffed animals, thick curtains, carpet, dirty clothes in a heap, etc...no wonder she had sinus problems.

Most people say that kids nowadays are spoiled. Reason being is that most parents are too lazy to teach their kids manners or discipline them when they do wrong. It takes lot's of time to teach your child right from wrong. The term "spoiled" does not have the same meaning it did decades ago.

IMO, Patsy was a lazy mother who did not put any effort into raising polite and respectful children.

She did not spoil her children....she neglected them.
Click to expand...
I agree,they could have taken the carpet and curtains out,put in miniblinds, etc.I've known ppl who've had to do that.Even so,some kids can continue to have probs after that.But IA,they should have done more about it.That Dr Buef sounds like Dr GOOF to me.(Did PR just happen to like his french name?).I suspect he mentioned the 'plain water baths' for JB in case their was any parental dna left on her.(wouldn't want to appear that got washed away with soap ,would he???) :rolleyes:
I suspect he only said that for the R's sake.I went to nursing school and we were always taught that in order for an area to heal,do 2 things...keep it clean and dry.I would think he would have suggested a bit of baby bath at least,and or a soft cloth wipe to get clean.And perhaps some ointment?
But just plain water????WTH??? I've never heard of that.Doesn't sound very sanitary to me. :(
 
santos1014 said:
What DOES bother me, and hints at abuse is the fact that JB would do it during waking hours and even soil herself as well. I see a bad pattern with those things.
Click to expand...
Me too,it sounds like JB was a very stressed out child,at least and esp. for the last month of her life.
 
santos1014 said:
I feel the Ramseys are guilty of alot of things, including her death. But I have to jump in here and speak about bedwetting.
My father wet the bed til he was 12, my brother until he was 10 and my daughter until she was about 9. I can assure you that we have a well adjusted family with no abuse. Bedwetting does tend to run in families and all of the doctors for our family told us that our bedwetters would sleep so deeply that the urge to urinate would not even wake them. As they grew older, sleep patterns change and bodies mature and it stopped.
I am by no means taking up for the Ramseys and the bedwetting, just saying that sometimes it just happens.
Click to expand...
True;I do try to be fair.I think there is a med they can give kids for it now.I wonder why PR didn't ever pursue it.
 
I have to wonder about that as well, JMO. I wonder why Patsy didn't think taking JonBenet to a pediatric urologist would have been a good idea. I know she said Dr. Beuf didn't think she needed a second opinion on JonBenet's urinary health, but wetting yourself during the day as well as at night is beyond simple bedwetting (especially when it causes a child under 7 years old to have 5 or 6 vaginal exams in three years time), and ultimately, the pediatrician does not get to decide what other doctors you take your child to. It's up to the parents to see to a child's health whether the regular pediatrician agrees or not. I really have to wonder why Patsy thought it was nothing to be concerned about and not worth checking into - JonBenet couldn't possibly have enjoyed it. There may have been a health issue that Dr Beuf was not seeing that a specialist would have found.
 
Nuisanceposter said:
I have to wonder about that as well, JMO. I wonder why Patsy didn't think taking JonBenet to a pediatric urologist would have been a good idea. I know she said Dr. Beuf didn't think she needed a second opinion on JonBenet's urinary health, but wetting yourself during the day as well as at night is beyond simple bedwetting (especially when it causes a child under 7 years old to have 5 or 6 vaginal exams in three years time), and ultimately, the pediatrician does not get to decide what other doctors you take your child to. It's up to the parents to see to a child's health whether the regular pediatrician agrees or not. I really have to wonder why Patsy thought it was nothing to be concerned about and not worth checking into - JonBenet couldn't possibly have enjoyed it. There may have been a health issue that Dr Beuf was not seeing that a specialist would have found.
Click to expand...
It's the constant daytime wetting which should raise a red flag when a child is already six years old. I don't remember who it was that said JB's underpants were aways wet (it is in PMPT).
Then there were JB's soiling accidents where she then asked even non-family members to wipe her. Highly unusual behavior too, which might point to her having had boundary issues.
 
SuperDave said:
That could be it.



He may have changed back. He was on Bill O'Reilly's program a few days after Patsy's death, and he basically made the police case.
Click to expand...
Geez, it's hard to keep up!
Thanks Dave.
 
Toltec said:
The poor child slept in a bedroom full of stuffed animals, thick curtains, carpet, dirty clothes in a heap, etc...no wonder she had sinus problems.

Most people say that kids nowadays are spoiled. Reason being is that most parents are too lazy to teach their kids manners or discipline them when they do wrong. It takes lot's of time to teach your child right from wrong. The term "spoiled" does not have the same meaning it did decades ago.

IMO, Patsy was a lazy mother who did not put any effort into raising polite and respectful children.

She did not spoil her children....she neglected them.
Click to expand...
That is exactly what I meant Toltec.
 
narlacat said:
Noone did, but we have first hand accounts of Patsys underlying rage brimming to the top more than once, so we know she has a fiery temper.

Of course they were, we're talking your classic spoiled 'rich kids' here.
Click to expand...
I totally agree. I can't tell you who as they are not part of any forum and treasure their privacy. However I know someone who knew the Ramseys. It was said of her that she could be sweeter than honeysuckle on the vine...Yet you always felt like you would not want to be on her list if you know what I mean. Yet they never even corrected the kids. Didn't make them pick up after themselves and in particular JonBenet could be challenging. More vocal. Whatever that meant. Burke more quiet. I will make a personal observation if kids don't have boundaries. They will push till you either establish boundaries or they trip your trigger. Best to have set expectations and boundaries. Not that this is a discussion on parenting 101. I digressed. Actually what was said is Patsy was great as long as she was in charge and doing the delegating but you didn't want to be on her bad side ever. You just somehow sensed or knew that she'd be a firebrand to contend with if you didn't go along.
 
coloradokares said:
I totally agree. I can't tell you who as they are not part of any forum and treasure their privacy. However I know someone who knew the Ramseys. It was said of her that she could be sweeter than honeysuckle on the vine...Yet you always felt like you would not want to be on her list if you know what I mean. Yet they never even corrected the kids. Didn't make them pick up after themselves and in particular JonBenet could be challenging. More vocal. Whatever that meant. Burke more quiet. I will make a personal observation if kids don't have boundaries. They will push till you either establish boundaries or they trip your trigger. Best to have set expectations and boundaries. Not that this is a discussion on parenting 101. I digressed. Actually what was said is Patsy was great as long as she was in charge and doing the delegating but you didn't want to be on her bad side ever. You just somehow sensed or knew that she'd be a firebrand to contend with if you didn't go along.
Click to expand...
Sounds like you've got her pegged Colorado and we've all met people like PR before haven't we?

I can see her losing it that night, she had alot on her plate.
 
narlacat said:
Sounds like you've got her pegged Colorado and we've all met people like PR before haven't we?

I can see her losing it that night, she had alot on her plate.
Click to expand...
Yes we have :banghead:
 
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