I have read many testimonials to the fact of JonBenet having loved her father John and being very proud she was named after him. But, despite my best efforts to do so, I have found not a word written which says that JonBenet loved her mother Patsy or was proud of (or even acknowledged) having her middle name be Patricia. JonBenet is never referred to as Jonnie P. JonBenet's name is never abbreviated as JPR, as John Andrew's is abbreviated JAR. Even in the testimonial book to Patsy's character, JONBENET'S MOTHER, nobody says it was clear that JonBenet loved Patsy. Could it be that years of devoting her heart and soul to her child, and having all that effort and love be denied, would drive Patsy over the edge and take her child's life in one final gesture which would forever bind JonBenet to Patsy in the eyes of her family, her friends, the world and history? Could the ultimate stressor for Patsy have been an occasion when Patsy went to bed, but left the bed (after John had fallen asleep) for one last effort to see if JonBenet could be woken and made to go to the bathroom to avoid a morning impossibility of cleaning up bedwetting, only to have JonBenet give her an elbow to the face and a childish "I don't love you, Mommy"? Why is it that Patsy has never spoken of remembering fondly JonBenet's words to her on Christmas Day? The last conversation Patsy admits to with JonBenet is an argument about clothes. After that, all she will admit to is being in the same room as JonBenet, though we all know that arguing spouses can stand to be in the same room as each other, taking out their hidden angers with each other through not speaking to each other.
I present this challenge. Find anecdotal evidence that JonBenet loved her mother, to even a percentage of the degree to which evidence can be found that she loved her father.
I've never seen such ancedotes either and think this is a good challenge. They apparently did fight about clothing and appearances frequently. The evening before about some velvet shoes and getting them dirty and the 25th about matching attire. I'm not so sure she wanted to be in those scratchy pageant costumes after all. It is interesting that non of the Ramseys remember or admit the final last converstions they had with JonBenet, as in it was a fight to the end.
~and about her regressed potty training, it's done to please your mother, to show your love for her, with a 6-year old having frequent accidents and wearing pull-ups this was an issue.~
If you can't find the words you can also tell from photographs and the body language presented much about relationships. It could be the other way around too, That Patsy didn't love JonBenet. She may have loved her daughter and the pageants and everything but not clicked with JonBenet's personality.
To love, one normally has to be loved. Are you saying Patsy really didn't love THAT CHILD?
There's been discussion over the years regarding the possibility that narcissism played a part in this. If indeed that is the case, we all know that love for others lasts only as long as the narcissist's needs are being met. When the love object is no longer compliant and useful they are discarded. The only person a narcissist loves is him or herself. I know a man who is a classic narcissist and he has no lasting friendships, in fact has alienated everyone in his family and has absolutely no sense of wrongdoing regarding his own behavior. He uses people for his own purposes and never reciprocates by offering his help when someone else needs something. He would be a lonely man if he didn't have his great love for himself. I have recently had a chance to see him in action in the business world and he easily fools those who have only brief dealings with him. I was amazed given what I know about him to see how charming and caring he seems to be. Scary!Originally Posted by BlueCrab
Oh c'mon! I do not think it is fair to question whether or not JonBenet loved her mother - or whether her mother loved her! Of COURSE they loved each other. I do not doubt that for one second. It is obvious Patsy loved her little girl very, very much. And while JonBenet may have been indulged and pushed into pageants by her mother - it is a real stretch to try and suggest that she did not "love" her mother. There were some "enmeshment" issues yes (Patsy even titled an entire chapter in their book: "Like Mother, Like Daughter") - but no relationship is perfect!
However JonBenet died and whoever was the actual killer and/or stager (Patsy or otherwise) - her mother surely will be heartbroken the rest of her life. Of that I have no doubt.
This post is my opinion.
Angelica - very good post. I know people like this. What you say is true.Originally Posted by Angelica
Also - there are varying degrees of narcissism. And they can be very difficult people to have relationships with. If at all. It is as if they have no conscience sometimes isn't it? All that matters is how something affects THEM. People are objects. To be used and discarded.
I'm reading an Ann Rule book right now about one such man. Tom Capano.
This post is my opinion.
I think most little kids love their parents. It's just natural bonding, if nothing else. JonBenet sometimes expressed anger towards Patsy, if Randy Simon's account of JBR kicking Patsy are true. But that doesn't mean she didn't love her.
I've always wondered what information led Hunter to describe the relationship between Patsy and JonBenet as being "fused".
Dear Diary, Today was the 1st day of school. I have all my opens with Peter & Christy. Tonight I went pool hopping ...When I got home my mom was really ticked at me. She might not let me go to the Allman Brothers concert with Peter which he asked me to go to today. She was being such a *****. A royal *****. She knows that I really want to go.
I think if JonBenet had written the above it would be shouted from the rooftops that this was 'proof' she hated her mother, they had a terrible relationship, and confirms Patsy's 'motive' to kill her.
Oh, Maxi...I can tell you some stories about little girls kicking their mommy's. In fact, I can tell you about a certain little girl who decided to pop mommy in the mouth just last night...Originally Posted by Maxi
I think, if anything, Patsy loved JBR too much, if that is possible. I recognize Patsy, as a mommy, and I feel for her, no matter what I think about the end of her story.
Women who have little girls, especially very wanted (and needed, perhaps) little girls, can have a tendency to fuse with 'that child.'
They love their child so much that it is at times difficult to distinguish where the mom ends and the child begins. If that makes any sense.
Some of us who emotionally squeeze their child too much (I confess
) are quickly put in their place by a rebellious daughter with a swift foot.
Of course, because we love too much, we under-discipline and thus allow the child to get away with this bad behavior. The whole cycle repeats itself over and over again.
I think Patsy, because she was so close to JBR, had trouble when the girl would not conform to Patsy's way of thinking. I mean, if JBR was just an extension of Patsy, then, she should agree with everything Patsy said or wanted, right?
Well, there are not too many words more biting than "None of your business MOM!" or "I WILL wear THAT outfit!" when the words come from the child you have been so close to all of these years, the child who looks like you, acts like you, the child whose thoughts you can read, etc.,etc.
I admit, one of the saddest moments of my life was walking my daughter to her kindergarten door this fall as she held up her hand to me and commanded, "LEAVE NOW MOMMY!" as though I was invading her territory, lol. And, I suppose a mom shuffling around outside of the building when all other moms have gone home CAN be embarassing. I think she is so much a part of me that I have a right to experience any aspect of her life along with her...I am wrong and it is a painful thing to realize. I WAS invading.
Those of us who are rational and not burried in stress are merely hurt by our children's words and actions. We learn from our mistakes and vow to go on, with a better discipline plan perhaps. After all, we created the 'monster.'
Patsy, on the other hand, faced a spoiled child (or two), coupled with her bout with cancer, John's trips away from home, etc. I think it boiled over one night. For whatever reason, she could not take another dispute with JBR, this tiny version of her own self, one moment longer.
The above is my opinion only based on published accounts of the case.
I would think that all little kids love their parents. The love boys have for their mothers and girls have for their fathers could be different than boys with their fathers and girls with their mothers. Maybe this love is expressed more in pursuing similar activities and hanging out together. I would have been more inclined to tell my opposite sex parent that I loved them.
This is my opinion, and change is good.
Tipper, if JonBenet wrote that she'd have been 16, not 6...Originally Posted by tipper
No matter what else happened I have no doubt in my mind that Jonbenet loved her mother and that her mother loved her. It is rare to find a child that does not love it's parents or parents who do not love their children.
I remember Patsy in an interview holding a small white dress glove that she carried of JBRs and saying that it always reminded her that happy little hands were once inside it. Her look of total grief as she said it looked very genuine to me.
I don't think my own daughter ran around as a small child telling other people how much she loved me....but I know she did.....even when she acted like she hated me when she couldn't go to sleepovers and slammed the door to her room in my face.
Last edited by Maybe So; 01-27-2004 at 01:19 AM. Reason: spelling
I agree with you completely. Children, especially children who are swamped by love, rarely 'show' their love. At least, that has been my experience.Originally Posted by Maybe So
Last year, I was a little worried because my Wolfchild never (and I mean NEVER) would use the words, "I love you," to anyone. So, we started an "I love you," session where each of us would tell the other "I love you!" and we would end with bunches of kisses and hugs.
Now, she sometimes hugs us, unprovoked. But, still, the "I love you"s rarely come out at all!
I think kids like that get smothered by too much love. The fact that JBR showed more 'love' towards John is probably a sign that there was an absence of John in her life. Being with Daddy was a treat. Being with Mommy was normal.
The above is my opinion only based on published accounts of the case.
Originally Posted by tipper
Tipper...I'm on your page/wavelength FWIW IMHO?!?! IMHO JonBenet and Patsy were not in agreement/together on issues/life...
Originally Posted by WolfmarsGirl
WOW...inspirational...I've WALKED 3 girls and 1 boy to KINDERGARDEN... LOL? ... and now I'm 45 and dealing w/menopause go figure? ...what did i learn...??? I learned how to juggle/walk in other's shoes... FWIW...
p.s....I've got a wonderful great/good hubby (2nd time around w/kids) to support me in my "thinking!"!
[QUOTE=why_nutt]I have read many testimonials to the fact of JonBenet having loved her father John and being very proud she was named after him. But, despite my best efforts to do so, I have found not a word written which says that JonBenet loved her mother Patsy or was proud of (or even acknowledged) having her middle name be Patricia. JonBenet is never referred to as Jonnie P. JonBenet's name is never abbreviated as JPR, as John Andrew's is abbreviated JAR. Even in the testimonial book to Patsy's character, JONBENET'S MOTHER, nobody says it was clear that JonBenet loved Patsy. Could it be that years of devoting her heart and soul to her child, and having all that effort and love be denied, would drive Patsy over the edge and take her child's life in one final gesture which would forever bind JonBenet to Patsy in the eyes of her family, her friends, the world and history? Could the ultimate stressor for Patsy have been an occasion when Patsy went to bed, but left the bed (after John had fallen asleep) for one last effort to see if JonBenet could be woken and made to go to the bathroom to avoid a morning impossibility of cleaning up bedwetting, only to have JonBenet give her an elbow to the face and a childish "I don't love you, Mommy"? Why is it that Patsy has never spoken of remembering fondly JonBenet's words to her on Christmas Day? The last conversation Patsy admits to with JonBenet is an argument about clothes. After that, all she will admit to is being in the same room as JonBenet, though we all know that arguing spouses can stand to be in the same room as each other, taking out their hidden angers with each other through not speaking to each other.
I present this challenge. Find anecdotal evidence that JonBenet loved her mother, to even a percentage of the degree to which evidence can be found that she loved her father.[QUOTE]
Letter to Patsy Ramsey
Excerpts of Vassar College professor and handwriting expert Donald Foster's June 18, 1997, letter to Patsy Ramsey:
• "I am terribly sorry for your irremediable loss. JonBenet was a remarkably charming and talented little girl, and I believe that you were an ideal mother, wise, protective, caring, truly devoted."
• "I know that you are innocent -- know it, absolutely and unequivocally. I would stake my professional reputation on it -- indeed, my faith in humanity."
• "I know that you are innocent. It has become obvious to me that you loved JonBenet very much,
...FYI and for additional info pull/search URL below...
When Patsy and her friends saw the lifeless JonBenet, Patsy threw herself over JonBenet’s body screaming hysterically, “Jesus, you raised Lazarus from the dead, please raise my baby!” The Reverend had everyone join hands as they prayed the Lord’s prayer over her. Arndt called for an ambulance and back up officers. The Ramsey child had been found dead in her own home. Detective Arndt, as a law enforcement officer, made yet another crucial error by moving JonBenet’s corpse. There could be trace evidence lost and precious little to be gained by moving the body. And once she was moved, someone covered her with a sweatshirt sitting nearby, and then she was covered again with a blanket. At that point, she could have picked up evidence from John (who ripped duck tape off her mouth) Patsy (who threw herself on the body) and evidence from Detective Arndt, the blanket and sweatshirt. Even Fleet White, because he felt JonBenet’s lifeless foot. The number of people in the house combined with the shock of finding JonBenet dead, it was complete and total chaos. The Reverend tried to help Patsy, she was hysterical. Finally back up arrived, but by that time, it was too late to get the scene under control. Officers could only try and salvage what was left and get everyone out of the house. At 10:40 PM, JonBenet was wheeled away to the county morgue.
Patsy abandoned JonBenet, physically and emotionally.
This happened when she went to the NIH for cancer treatment when JonBenet was 3, a very tender age. Though not intentional it was just as damaging as if Patsy had left her at a bus station. Even though she came back the bond was not broken but bent enough to alter the normal loving relationship between mother and child. For Burke's stage of development at 6, he didn't rely or need his mother as much allowing that relationship to procede more normally.
This could be the reason JonBenet favored John. This could have lead to toileting and feeding problems. JonBenet felt Patsy didn't love her when she left, a three year old lives in a fantasy world of the here and now. The love from Patsy was suddenly gone, the love that had sustained her on a daily basis all her life. The love from Patsy was suddenly gone, it doesn't matter why to a three year old. After Patsy came back; JonBenet, in an unconscious effort to protect herself, her own little ego, would have a difficult time loving Patsy. By loving Patsy, JonBenet would be setting herself up for another fall.
Maxi, that "fused" comment by Hunter is an interesting observation. I've long said that this crime was driven by an identity problem. And pathological narcissism plays a large part also, not only in Patsy but in Nedra Paugh as well. Sins of the parent are passed to the offspring.
The story of The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie is about the struggle of a young girl to free herself from the influence of a pathological narcissist. I think Patsy sensed this need in herself but became the very thing that she could not free herself from.
Good opening salvo Angelica.
Love is never an excuse for doing the wrong thing.
When my Aunt gave birth to her daughter she made a comment that she never wanted a girl because she didn't like girls, to this day she favors her son over her daughter and her daughter is an adult now with two little girls of her own. So therefore, I don't think she ever loved her the way a mother should have loved her daughter. So it does happen, rarely, but it happens.
There is a very big difference between "loving a child too much" as WolfmarsGirl put it and not knowing where you end and your child begins. I too am guilty of "loving too much" my youngest child who came into my life in middle age. She is like an only child as my other kids are adults now and all our attention is focused on her. I am considered to be overly concerned about her safety and get razzed quite a bit by my grown kids about my paranoia. I am able to stay home with her whereas I worked full time while raising my older kids and feel that being able to be involved in every aspect of her life has lead to my being somewhat overly attached to her. She tells us she loves us all the time but I see her face light up when her Daddy comes home. I know my mother did everything for us when we were small but I was Daddy's girl and he was the one I wanted to impress because he wasn't home as much. We do tend to take for granted that which we're sure of. It's not unusual for a little girl to express love for her Daddy, in my opinion it's quite normal. What is not normal is a mother's need to control every bit of a child's life, choosing their clothes and telling them what to think. Seeing a child as an extention of yourself is a very unhealthy thing. When that child begins to rebel and want to go their own way it is devastating for the controller. If narcissism is a factor it wouldn't surprise me if a psychotic break were to occur.
I think before one can interpret what Hunter meant by the 'fused' comment one would have to know more about his relationship with his own children.
Originally Posted by tipper
Can you elaborate on this thought a little more? Thanks.
Patsy might have been one who needed HER mother's approval to validate her (Patsy's) self worth. In order for JB to be accepted, for lack of a better word, by Nedra, Patsy might have been trying to control how JB appeared to Nedra. There's a book called "My Mother, Myself", an interesting read. JMO
What I meant was if Hunter and his children were very different from each other and clashed on a regular basis; he might consider a parent and child who enjoyed the same activities and enjoyed doing them together to be overly connected or 'fused.'
Last edited by tipper; 01-27-2004 at 02:09 PM.