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  1. #31
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    Richard

    Let me be clear. You haven't actually "stated" that the "Over 15" sighting isn't credible...but you "imply" that it isn't when you make comments such as this one from the above post #36.

    The sighting was somewhat questionable (by police) at the time and later. And the time of the sighting was only a rough estimate by two teenaged boys - given several days after the event.

    Then again in post #37

    Again, this was an estimate given on or about the 28th of March, some three days after the girls went missing.

    You said that the police at the time and later found this sighting to be questionable...but just today you said

    MCP stated about the sighting of "Over 15" and his friend that they were "95 per cent sure that the latest witness saw the girls." This was in a press conference given on Wednesday, 16 April 1975 and reported the next day in the Washington Post.

    I'm just saying that you "imply" that the "Over 15" sighting isn't credible and keep pointing out that this sighting came from 2 teenage boys days after the fact. But when you talk about "Jimmy" and his friend,also 2 teenage boys who came forward days after the fact, you seem to see it as something far more credible than the "Over 15" story.

    To quote you...

    "Jimmy" made a significant statement about the girls as well, saying that he had seen them, and then when he elaborated his sighting by saying that he had seen them "talking to a reporter". His time frame for this was also an estimate of "between 1:00 and 2:00 PM. He was also specific about where he saw them and in what direction the girls went immediately afterward.

    "Over 15" was specific about where he saw them too and said they were headed toward their house. MCP said that would have been the girls' most direct route.

    It just "seems" as though you are very biased.

  2. #32
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    My comments in posts 36 and 37 were not made to in any way imply that the "Over 15" story is not true or that it couldn't possibly happen. I was replying to the previous post which discussed a scenario involving a specific possible arrival time of the girls at their home on the afternoon of 25 March 1975.

    What I meant in my comments was that you cannot be very precise in such a calculation when the Drumm/Devin sighting time is only a rough estimate within an hour-long window.

    In my previous post, I compare both Jimmy's information with that of "Over 15" and you will find that both contain similar bits of information:

    1. Positive identification of the girls.
    2. And estimated time of within one hour.
    3. What the girls were doing.
    4. A geographic location.
    5. A direction of movement.

    Similarities in statements:

    1. Both statements were made about the same time following the girls' disappearance.
    2. Both eyewitnesses were teen-aged boys
    3. Both statements were corroborated by other teen-aged boys.

    I have always tried to be as straight forward as possible in what I say, but I guess that one can "infer" a different meaning at times. Sometimes in relating the story, the wording used can add unintentional meaning.

    Here is an example, using a quote from your post:

    [quote] "Over 15" was specific about where he saw them too and said they were headed toward their house. MCP said that would have been the girls' most direct route. [unquote]

    Actually, "Over 15" was quoted in the press as specifically stating that the girls were alone and "just walking normally along the roadway". The girls were headed west on Drumm near Devin between 2:30 and 3:30PM.

    He did NOT say that the girls were headed toward their house, and in fact, he might not have known where they lived. Police did say in the same briefing that the sighting was within a half mile of the girls' home.

    Of course, we know that their observed location and direction of travel would have indicated that they were headed in the direction of their house, but that is a conclusion of the reader, not a direct quote of the eyewitness or of the news report.

    Some of what I have written on this case are direct quotes of eyewitnesses, of police, or of newspaper stories. But I also write from memory and sometimes tend to interpret events and information in my own words. An example would be (again quoting from your post):

    MCP stated about the sighting of "Over 15" and his friend that they were "95 per cent sure that the latest witness saw the girls." (the quotation marks indicate exactly what MCP stated in their press briefing).

    The sighting was somewhat questionable (by police) at the time and later. My words. Note that I consider "95 percent sure" to be somewhat questionable at the time.
    Last edited by Richard; 10-04-2011 at 10:48 PM.

  3. #33
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    Richard

    My apologies...you're right...it wasn't "Over 15" who said that the girls were heading towards their house. It was you who made that comment.

    From your post #27 of this thread.

    Between 2:30 PM and 3:30 PM
    - Another boy later reported seeing them walking west (toward home) on Drumm Avenue near Devon Street. Drumm Avenue, a residential street, was part of the most direct route from Wheaton Plaza to their home.

    This is another example of how,in my opinion, you seem to discredit or not report fairly on the "Over 15" sighting.

    Taken from the Potential Suspects thread...your post #98

    The names of the two boys in the car have never been released to the press or public. They should be considered persons of interest in this case. They should be located and questioned again about the events that they claimed to have witnessed. There are several possibilities regarding their story:

    1. It is possible that they told the truth and that the girls actually were at Drumm and Devon heading west that afternoon. If so, it is significant in nailing down more accurately the time and location of their abduction. It would be interesting to study their full statements to ascertain exactly what they said.

    2. It is also possible that they were mistaken and that it was two other girls who were seen that day. Knowing whether or not the boys correctly described the girls clothing might verify that.

    3. Police have stated that it is possible that the boys had seen the girls on a different day, and say that because of the length of time between the sighting and the news reports (about two weeks), the story cannot be considered accurate or reliable. Actually the boys came forward on or about 28 March to police, but their story was not made public right away. The statements by the boys were made only about three days after the girls disappeared.

    4. The possibility also exists that these guys were lying or making the story up for whatever reason.

    5. Another possibility, not previously considered, is that these boys could have played a much greater part in the girls' disappearance.

    Consider the last point for a moment. These boys claimed to have been driving a vehicle down the same residential streets that the girls were walking, at the same time, and they claim to have not only seen, but to have recognized the girls. Actually "Over Fifteen" claimed to have known Sheila Lyon, while the older boy (the driver) stated that he did NOT know the girls, but he confirmed the rest of the "Over Fifteen" story.

    It has been suggested or theorized that perhaps the girls knew their abductor. Could it be that these boys actually picked the girls up and took them somewhere? Did police consider this and was the car driven by the boys gone over? How thoroughly were the boys questioned?

    If these boys were telling the truth about seeing the girls and if they did not pick them up, there would have only been a short window of opportunity for someone else to have abducted them. Does their statement mention any other vehicles or persons in the area at the same time as the sighting?

    When was the last time investigators spoke with these two?

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Last edited by Richard; 11-19-2009 at 10:39 AM. Reason: wording


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    #99 11-20-2009, 06:57 PM
    Motherof5
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    In the above post...you have...

    Stated that it's possible that "Over 15" and friend could have seen the girls on a different day.(as stated by you above in #2...I realize that you aslo stated that LE said the same) The same could be said for "Jimmy" and friend. Why is it so hard to believe that "Over 15" saw them THAT day? "Over 15" knew Sheila...and yet you say that it's possible that "Over 15 saw 2 different girls that day.


    I don't understand #3. Police say that "Over 15 could have seen the girls on a different day(as I've said...same could be said for "Jimmy")...but I don't understand this part..

    because of the length of time between the sighting and the news reports (about two weeks), the story cannot be considered accurate or reliable

    This reads as if you're saying that LE finds the "Over 15" story not reliable because of the 2 weeks between the sighting and it's being reported in the news...did I misunderstand?

    You've said that...."The possibility also exists that these guys were lying or making the story up for whatever reason."........Again..the same could be said for "Jimmy and friend" but you don't mention that.

    You've said that "Over 15" and friend should be considered person's of interest,that they could have "played a much greater part in the girls' disappearance"...... even posted a theory on how "Over 15" and friend could be involved.

    It has been suggested or theorized that perhaps the girls knew their abductor. Could it be that these boys actually picked the girls up and took them somewhere? Did police consider this and was the car driven by the boys gone over? How thoroughly were the boys questioned?

    "Over 15" has gone from being a witness to actually being involved in the abduction? How is that not trying to discredit "Over 15"? If we're looking at that angle.....why not make "Jimmy" a person of interest as well? "Jimmy" claims to have seen the girls too....did he help TRM to somehow abduct the girls? I don't believe that for a minute...just putting the same spin on it that you did.

    I'm of the "taken by someone known to them" group....but I seriously doubt that "Over 15" and friend would abduct the girls and then go to police and report having seen them that day.


    I guess we just agree to disagree. We believe different things took place that day and we don't agree on the same suspect... that's ok...different thoughts from different people are why we're all here. I just don't understand your thinking...but you can say the same about me.

  4. #34
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    Over 15 Overtaken by events...

    The story of the Lyon sisters, as reported by police and the news media was a fast moving story with a lot of false leads and a lot of speculation, searching, and family agony.

    "Jimmy" and his story of the Tape Recorder Man seen talking with Sheila and Kate was hailed by police and the media as a timely and strong clue in the girls' disappearance. It was the lead story for a while, and many other people called in to substantiate it by reporting other similar sightings of the strange man and his microphone at other area malls.

    The "Over 15" boy's story of seeing the girls walking west on Drumm, on the other hand, did not appear in the papers until 17 April 1975. By that time, other events had taken place which kind of bypassed the story that the boy had related.

    Among those events; there had been numerous reported sightings of the girls around the country and the story of the Tan Ford Station Wagon had gripped the Washington Metropolitan area. There was also a story about a ransom attempt. And then a Mass Murderer (Pearch) began a shooting spree right at Wheaton Plaza parking lot, which ended in a number of people wounded and killed.

    I am not minimalizing the "Over 15" boy's information, simply saying that it did not make as big a splash in the press as some of the other stories of the day. And perhaps for that reason, "Over 15" was never interviewed by the media in the way that "Jimmy" was.

    As a result, the only information that we have is what Montgomery County Police said about the "Over 15" report. I have typed up that news story and included it in the Thread on News Articles and Links.

    Note in that article of Thursday 17 April 1975, that police claim they received the information from the boy (Over 15) the previous week and withheld it in order to verify it. If police were quoted correctly, this means that "Over 15" came forward with his story sometime between April 6th and April 12th, or between 12 and 18 days after the girls disappearance.

    Note also that this news story states in two places that Police had dismissed or doubted another boy's story about seeing the girls at 7:30 PM. This would have been the David Reed sighting about which police had begun to express doubts as early as 27 or 28 March. The article mentions that it was this publicly expressed doubt that caused "Over 15" to come forward with his information.
    Last edited by Richard; 10-05-2011 at 02:33 PM. Reason: more information

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    12. James Mann, age 50 in 1975, lived in a house on the corner of Drumm and Devin. Claimed (in a 2005 interview) to have seen and waived at the girls as they walked past his house on their way home.
    James Mann (through internet search) passed away 1/3/2012.

  6. #36
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    James Martin Mann obituary

    Quote Originally Posted by cgoodwin22 View Post
    James Mann (through internet search) passed away 1/3/2012.
    Thank you for this information. He lived on the corner of Drumm and Devin in 1975 and was still living there in 2005 when he was interviewed by a reporter. Some time later, he moved to Georgia.

    I was able to locate an obituary for Mr. Mann, which is linked below:


    JAMES MARTIN MANN
    On Tuesday, January 3, 2012 of Marietta, GA and formerly of Kensington, MD. Beloved husband of the late Doris M. Mann;....
    Mr. Mann was employed as a mechanic for Jim Coleman Cadillac for over 50 years. ... Interment Parklawn Memorial Park.

    www.COLLINSFUNERALHOME.com

    LINK:

    http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/was...6593&fhid=6151

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by laughin View Post
    Bedford County search is part of open homicide investigation in Maryland

    http://www.wdbj7.com/news/local/lync...ain-r/28083490
    They are searching for the Lyon sisters here in our neighborhood. I was there today, spoke to reporters and watched the search and rescue team go in and out of the woods.
    When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained.

    Mark Twain

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