Time of Death: Rigor Mortis etc

Hi all.

Yoooo-hoooo: "Is there a Doctor in the House ???" LOL.... (you're needed here!)

Just thinking about Rigor Mortis. If mild, RM may start a couple of hours after death. From what I've read, RM can commence in minutes - and may anything from 3/4 to 12 hours to 'set'. The body relaxes around 36 after RM has completed its course.

OK, so we don't know what stage of RM Michelle's body had reached when Meredith discovered her; suffice to say Meredith confirmed MY was cold to the touch and she couldn't move her. This was a 'deadweight' ... on top of which it appeared Michelle was lying at an awkward angle.

From lividity, or Livor Mortis - the pooling of blood in the body after death - the coroner and med forensics will be able to determine if MY was moved after her murder. LM will also assist establishing TOD.

As novices, perhaps we're assuming MY had been dead 12 hours by the time Meredith arrived? Maybe ... maybe she had only been dead ... say 6 hours???

Possible?

Approximate times for algor and rigor mortis in temperate regions

Body temperature - Body stiffness - Time since death

warm - not stiff - dead not more than three hours
warm - stiff - dead 3 to 8 hours
cold - stiff - dead 8 to 36 hours
cold - not stiff - dead more than 36 hours


http://www.deathreference.com/Py-Se/Rigor-Mortis-and-Other-Postmortem-Changes.html

interesting stuff.....imo

Michelle was "cold" & "stiff" per Meredith....

Thanks for the info. Some would think we are morbid by wanting and looking up this kind of information but I think it is very important information.

I have to wonder how long it took her to die, being that there was so much blood makes me think it took awhile. You don't bleed after you are dead. Do you think that the killer left before knowing she was dead? If she was attacked in the bed and ended up on the floor she might have been barely alive.

packerdog said:

Thanks for the info. Some would think we are morbid by wanting and looking up this kind of information but I think it is very important information.

I have to wonder how long it took her to die, being that there was so much blood makes me think it took awhile. You don't bleed after you are dead. Do you think that the killer left before knowing she was dead? If she was attacked in the bed and ended up on the floor she might have been barely alive.

Click to expand...

i agree..it's important information for sure, packer.....

gosh, i just don't know enough about it all, but from everything i've read/heard, head wounds bleed a lot, soooo if Michelle was hit 2, 3, or maybe even 4 times???....that's a lot of blood....i'm going to guess that the first blow didn't kill her...not real sure why i think that, but i do...i think Michelle struggled for her life, but that's not been reported anywhere.....

& you could be right about her not being dead, when the killer left, & maybe she DID end up on the floor ...... whoever did this, IMO, hated her....so i tend to think they made sure she was dead when they left....

i'm STILL going with her being found on the bed, only because of the info you posted from a news link a week ago or so.....about her being "found laying on the bed"......i understand there's all kinds of 'positions' likely, if she fell off the bed, maybe crawling toward a door, etc......but if she was attacked while in the bed, & there was some type of brief struggle, i think it's possible she ended up in somewhat of a fetal position, trying to guard her head...????

i'm thinking out loud now...

close_enough said:

i agree..it's important information for sure, packer.....

gosh, i just don't know enough about it all, but from everything i've read/heard, head wounds bleed a lot, soooo if Michelle was hit 2, 3, or maybe even 4 times???....that's a lot of blood....i'm going to guess that the first blow didn't kill her...not real sure why i think that, but i do...i think Michelle struggled for her life, but that's not been reported anywhere.....

& you could be right about her not being dead, when the killer left, & maybe she DID end up on the floor ...... whoever did this, IMO, hated her....so i tend to think they made sure she was dead when they left....

i'm STILL going with her being found on the bed, only because of the info you posted from a news link a week ago or so.....about her being "found laying on the bed"......i understand there's all kinds of 'positions' likely, if she fell off the bed, maybe crawling toward a door, etc......but if she was attacked while in the bed, & there was some type of brief struggle, i think it's possible she ended up in somewhat of a fetal position, trying to guard her head...????

i'm thinking out loud now...

Click to expand...

Alot of really good thoughts there. Maybe the person did make sure she was dead before they left. I would think that blood would cast of on the walls and stuff. In the 911 call M said that there was blood everywhere.

packerdog said:

Alot of really good thoughts there. Maybe the person did make sure she was dead before they left. I would think that blood would cast of on the walls and stuff. In the 911 call M said that there was blood everywhere.

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yeah, she did....those of Cassidy's footprints & i'd be willing to bet when she said "there's blood everywhere" she was probably just outside the bedroom, looking in....remember she said at one point, that she wasn't right there at Michelle's body...she was trying to keep Cassidy outside of the room, is how i took it...like maybe she was in a hallway, looking into the room during a part of the call.....i'm thinking there was a LOT of blood spatter/splatter in that bedroom....headboard, walls, floor, bed, nightstands, etc......

packerdog said:

Thanks for the info. Some would think we are morbid by wanting and looking up this kind of information but I think it is very important information.

I have to wonder how long it took her to die, being that there was so much blood makes me think it took awhile. You don't bleed after you are dead. Do you think that the killer left before knowing she was dead? If she was attacked in the bed and ended up on the floor she might have been barely alive.

Click to expand...

Absolutely agree, packerdog. This information is critical to the homicide as well as the timelines of any/all others that may be current POI's. Folk are coming down on those of us (yeah ... shudder ... includes me...) that believe JY did it. If we are able to establish or understand how far along RM and lividity had set in ... we're able to understand the approximate TOD, and thus better equipped to 'judge' (layman's terms, that is), JY's involvement.

Be that as it may: nothing has been released. So, we're once again speculating and LORD KNOWS, that speculation-yardstick is eternal.

SO! I feel MY was surprised and attacked while in bed. Whether 'left for dead' and, as you suggest as an option, may have struggled to the floor herself ... then blood patterns and lividity will explain this ... or help explain this.

If the attack continued with MY in, and then leaving, the bed before she was killed, we'll also find that out. None of us have knowledge of the autopsy report. Judging by the 'skewed body' in its final fall, it might be assumed that MY's last breaths were taken from bed-to-floor. How long those last breaths lasted is a professional's opinion and deduction.

But ... it's not unreasonable to presume that MY was still alive as she hit the floor, as the heart would not pump blood if she were dead; there would be no pools of blood for Cassie to step in.... (basically...). If left on the bed, the bedclothes would have absorbed the blood. Cassie wouldn';t have had that many footprints.

I want to know what/how much blood was on the pillow - and if the pillow (speculation) may have been placed atop MY to prevent Cassie seeing too much? Or did MY pull the pillow with her? Did it fall on her? Why did Meredith need to touch the pillow?

For Cassie to have stepped in the blood - and run her footprints around the house - there had to have been substantial blood pooling. If... as we might *ASSUME* .... Meredith did not see the extent of her sister's injuries, then MY may not have been disturbed post attack ... and the injuries were underneath her and Meredith did not see all of her wounds (because pooling can't happen - say - if she was struck on the back of head if she was found face down... unless she was turned.) So a Med Examiner will be able to check if she was 'positioned' (turned, etc...) from those injuries ... or if and how she struggled in her last breaths of life.

By LE's description of a horrendous attack, seems likely we might assume MY fought for her life... but if there was a lot of blood matted in her hair (back of head) and she was found face down ... some one may have moved her.

To me, (a crime-murder addict), seems clear MY was not clinically dead as she hit the floor, for Cassie to have stepped in her blood and for Meredith to say "There are bloody footprints all over the house..." (or word to that effect). If Rigor Mortis started later say 10:00 am then the crime might have happened early hours of the morning. Aound 6 or 7 am.

What if JY drove back early am, before dawn, committed crime and left for his journey? He has 10 - 15 hours from the 11:00 pm (alleged) phone call to the 3 pm arrival at his parents. To eliminate JY, we need to identify his timeline. What if he 'faxed himself' via website on PC in early hours of 4th November?

Just thinking aloud... (but what if he checked out of his hotel early am, went by his house and then allegedly headed for VA or South Carloina briefly before driving to his parents? Gas, calls and records might prove this).

Throwing things out of my cot!

close_enough said:

i agree..it's important information for sure, packer.....

gosh, i just don't know enough about it all, but from everything i've read/heard, head wounds bleed a lot, soooo if Michelle was hit 2, 3, or maybe even 4 times???....that's a lot of blood....i'm going to guess that the first blow didn't kill her...not real sure why i think that, but i do...i think Michelle struggled for her life, but that's not been reported anywhere.....

& you could be right about her not being dead, when the killer left, & maybe she DID end up on the floor ...... whoever did this, IMO, hated her....so i tend to think they made sure she was dead when they left....

i'm STILL going with her being found on the bed, only because of the info you posted from a news link a week ago or so.....about her being "found laying on the bed"......i understand there's all kinds of 'positions' likely, if she fell off the bed, maybe crawling toward a door, etc......but if she was attacked while in the bed, & there was some type of brief struggle, i think it's possible she ended up in somewhat of a fetal position, trying to guard her head...????

i'm thinking out loud now...

Click to expand...

Hi close... let's say MY was found on the bed: (perhaps this was spliced out of the tape, so it's pretty darn feasible...) ... then Cassie would have had to be near or next to her mom pretty quickly to get enough blood on her feet to run bloody footprints all over the house.

In getting on the bed, climbing over her mom, Cassie would have blood all over her (if we imagine the sweet clamberings of a 2 year old all over us). Ther may have been body smears on Cassie and perhps more fingerprints: but I took it that cassie stood in the blood to leave a trail.

Sooo interesting ... until we get the autopsy report, it's great to understand and accept different POVs.

Whew .... wish there was a little more detail! Not on the perp - but even on the crime scene. But we know LE withhold all details to close in on testimony.

Ack! ... LOL Inspectors Cleauseux-rette here ...

close_enough said:

i agree..it's important information for sure, packer.....

gosh, i just don't know enough about it all, but from everything i've read/heard, head wounds bleed a lot, soooo if Michelle was hit 2, 3, or maybe even 4 times???....that's a lot of blood....i'm going to guess that the first blow didn't kill her...not real sure why i think that, but i do...i think Michelle struggled for her life, but that's not been reported anywhere.....

& you could be right about her not being dead, when the killer left, & maybe she DID end up on the floor ...... whoever did this, IMO, hated her....so i tend to think they made sure she was dead when they left....

i'm STILL going with her being found on the bed, only because of the info you posted from a news link a week ago or so.....about her being "found laying on the bed"......i understand there's all kinds of 'positions' likely, if she fell off the bed, maybe crawling toward a door, etc......but if she was attacked while in the bed, & there was some type of brief struggle, i think it's possible she ended up in somewhat of a fetal position, trying to guard her head...????

i'm thinking out loud now...

Click to expand...

Hi close... let's say MY was found on the bed: (perhaps this was spliced out of the tape, so it's pretty darn feasible...) ... then Cassie would have had to be near or next to her mom pretty quickly to get enough blood on her feet to run bloody footprints all over the house.

In getting on the bed, climbing over her mom, Cassie would have blood all over her (if we imagine the sweet clamberings of a 2 year old all over us). Ther may have been body smears from Cassie and fingerprints: but I took it that cassie stood in the blood to leave a trail.

Sooo interesting ... until we get the autopsy report, it's great to understand and accept different POVs.

Whew .... wish there was a little more detail! Not on the perp - but even on the crime scene. But we know LE withhold all details to close in on testimony.

Ack! ... LOL Inspectors Cleauseux-rette here ...

ugh....i'm having a VERY hard time posting here right now

"server busy".....anyway, i've got to head out for today's bowling match, but will be back this evening...good reading POLK!!

There was one early statement in a link that she was found on the bed, but the Media is often wrong,

I agree with you Annie that Cassidy had to step on blood on the floor to track it all over. And also that to have that much pooling blood on the floor she would still been alive when she landed on the floor. With the bashing at the back of the head to create that much blood she would probably be unconscious and I don't know how long it would take her to die.

But I think the 11pm call was made for a specific reason to see if the friends had left as I think he went right back within an hour or so to kill her to expediate time and get it over with. How could he go to sleep knowing what he was going to do in a few hours?

Even though Baden said her skull was cracked open to the point where the brain was damaged {and I don't think he would say this unless he had inside info which is very possible as these forensic Dr's talk between themselves}, and knowing that in Michelles photos she had longer dark hair, the blood would matt with the hair and one would not see the damage readily unless the hair was moved. Her hair was probably tangled too.

What I'm getting at is I don't think Meredith realized the damage that had been done to Michelle at first glance.

Close, you mentioned you thought Meredith stood out in the hall to look across at Michelle. I don't picture it that way at all, as the sense I get from everything Meredith said is she went right over to Michelle and was right there beside the bed and in a media link I read that Cassidy was also found close to her mother. Just thinkin, or trying to as usual. LOL

Scandi


ETA: I'm having a hard time too Close, as it keeps saying the server is busy and then times out. What the . . .!

scandi said:

There was one early statement in a link that she was found on the bed, but the Media is often wrong,

I agree with you Annie that Cassidy had to step on blood on the floor to track it all over. And also that to have that much pooling blood on the floor she would still been alive when she landed on the floor. With the bashing at the back of the head to create that much blood she would probably be unconscious and I don't know how long it would take her to die.

But I think the 11pm call was made for a specific reason to see if the friends had left as I think he went right back within an hour or so to kill her to expediate time and get it over with. How could he go to sleep knowing what he was going to do in a few hours?

Even though Baden said her skull was cracked open to the point where the brain was damaged {and I don't think he would say this unless he had inside info which is very possible as these forensic Dr's talk between themselves}, and knowing that in Michelles photos she had longer dark hair, the blood would matt with the hair and one would not see the damage readily unless the hair was moved. Her hair was probably tangled too.

What I'm getting at is I don't think Meredith realized the damage that had been done to Michelle at first glance.

Close, you mentioned you thought Meredith stood out in the hall to look across at Michelle. I don't picture it that way at all, as the sense I get from everything Meredith said is she went right over to Michelle and was right there beside the bed and in a media link I read that Cassidy was also found close to her mother. Just thinkin, or trying to as usual. LOL

Scandi


ETA: I'm having a hard time too Close, as it keeps saying the server is busy and then times out. What the . . .!

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when did Baden say this?????....(i don't doubt that her skull was cracked, but when did Baden say this?)


also you're right...Meredith was right there with Michelle most of the call, but not all of it....

this is the part of the call, just before the dispatcher is trying to get Meredith to see if Michelle is dead or not....

dispatcher...."are you right by her now?"

Meridith..."i'm keeping her dauther out of there"

dispatcher..."ok, so you're not with her?"

Meredith...."im right outside the bedroom"

dispatcher..."alright, can you carry the phone where she's at?....can you secure her daughter?"

this is when Meredith asks Cassidy to go to her room....& we hear Cassidy say as plain as day "OK"...bless her heart

I agree Close, but the call had been ongoing for at least a minute or minute and a half. Don't you think Michelle was at her side and then the dispatcher asked her to put Cassidy in her room which is what she did?

And Dr Baden made that statement on Greta's show of the 17th I believe. I'll never forget the word cracked. It was so horrible to even imagine that.

Scandi

scandi said:

I agree Close, but the call had been ongoing for at least a minute or minute and a half. Don't you think Michelle was at her side and then the dispatcher asked her to put Cassidy in her room which is what she did?

And Dr Baden made that statement on Greta's show of the 17th I believe. I'll never forget the word cracked. It was so horrible to even imagine that.

Scandi

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right Scandi...the call had gone on for a minute or so, & Meredith had already told the dispatcher, the first time, that Michelle was cold...but at a point, right after that, Meredith must have taken Cassidy out of the room & was speaking to the dispatcher from outside the bedroom door....when the dispatcher realized Meredith wasn't in the room with Michelle, that's when he asks Meredith to secure Cassidy somewhere else, so Meredith can check to make SURE if Michelle is dead or not....course it didn't really matter anyway; Cassidy came back in the room...you can hear her through most all of the call...

i'm just surprised that Baden would know any info from the ME's office, to be honest....& if he does, i'm surprised he'd leak that info on Greta's show....i'm not saying you didn't hear it, but i'm just puzzled how he would know...

Hi Close, I snuck back in too! LOL I don't know. Those guys all talk among themselves and know each other very well after all the years. But when he said her skull was cracked to the point it disturbed the brains is when I knew it had to have been something he had heard or he wouldn't just say that. A crack in the skull might not necessarily go all the way through to expose what is inside.

Nitey Nite Scandi

scandi said:

Hi Close, I snuck back in too! LOL I don't know. Those guys all talk among themselves and know each other very well after all the years. But when he said her skull was cracked to the point it disturbed the brains is when I knew it had to have been something he had heard or he wouldn't just say that. A crack in the skull might not necessarily go all the way through to expose what is inside.

Nitey Nite Scandi

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I heard it to Scandi. I thought he said that there was brain damage from the blows to the head and it was severe.

ok...cool

O/T...i wonder where Polk is????

Yea Packerdog, I think that is what he said too but kept my comments conservative as I didn't tape it. Now with your confirmation I agree that's what he said. Do we have that transcript on the links thread? We should ask Close as she seems to be the Mistress of the Links Thread!

Scandi

PS: Mornin' Close. I miss her too! I know she was going to England on a business trip, so maybe she left. I think she leads a most interesting life.

scandi said:

Yea Packerdog, I think that is what he said too but kept my comments conservative as I didn't tape it. Now with your confirmation I agree that's what he said. Do we have that transcript on the links thread? We should ask Close as she seems to be the Mistress of the Links Thread!

Scandi

PS: Mornin' Close. I miss her too! I know she was going to England on a business trip, so maybe she left. I think she leads a most interesting life.

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ooooh, ok...i forgot about her trip this weekend...thanks Scandi....i miss her

close_enough said:

ok...cool

O/T...i wonder where Polk is????

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hello close & scands ... you're not that lucky...

"Hi Honey ...... I'm HOME!!!"

Been busy: had an expo to attend plus our now-regular "Open House BBQ" on Friday eve; dressed the Christmas Tree, yay! Now ... if there is a Glorious Marriage in this world: it's me and Chrtismas Tree decoratin, darlin! We don't see each other often enough to get a divorce and pack any problem-areas away in the broom cupboard for 11 months, hahaha...

You're right scandi ... leave for UK on 13 Dec @ 3 days! Rec'd a PM from a dear co-poster stating there's a 'new article'. Oooh er... must go read.

BRB to catch up!

How's everyone doing?