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  1. #1
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    JonBenet's body

    I am not sure why now, but suddenly last night as I was reading about this crime, once again, it hit me that when John brought JB's body up from the basement, she was in full rigor mortis and he picked her up and held her around her waist. This would be the equal to carrying a mannequin, I would suppose. What a horrible sight that must have been for the others present. I mean, it was horrible anyway, but to think of her so stiff and unhuman-like, just sends chills up my spine. I hope this makes sense to anyone that reads it.

    this really has nothing to do with anything in particular, I just realized it.

  2. #2
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    If that is indeed the way John brought JB up the stairs, that speaks volumes to me.
    I would have been holding my child (God forbid) the full length of my body in an embrace of never letting go.

    The way he carried her seem very detached to me.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2XL
    If that is indeed the way John brought JB up the stairs, that speaks volumes to me.
    I would have been holding my child (God forbid) the full length of my body in an embrace of never letting go.

    The way he carried her seem very detached to me.
    He may have held her close to him, but around the waist- her arms would have been straight up in the air, it may have been the only way to hold her, and get her up the stairs from the basement.


    From the book- The Cases That Haunt Us- page 380-

    "Fleet touched JonBenet's ankle, it was cold. He turned and raced up the steps for help. John knelt down over her and ripped the tape from her mouth, pulled off the blanket and began to loosen the wrist binding. All the while he said he begged her to talk to him. Her eyes were closed.
    He picked her up and carried her stiff body upright around the waist, up the stairs into the living room where Linda Arndt was."

    Later in that paragraph it states-
    "John laid JonBenet on the floor next to the Christmas tree, uttering words of comfort as ARndt checked for vital signs. But the detective could see that the child was in full rigor mortis and her lips were blue."

  4. #4
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    It's a truly horrible and gruesome thought. JR says in DOI that JonBenet's skin was cool to the touch, and that she was stiff as he carried her, but then he needed Detective Arndt to tell him she was dead...how could he not realize? If she's cold when you touch her and maintains a stiff and inflexible posture when she's picked up, she's not unconscious, she's gone.

    I cannot imagine how horrible it must have been for everyone in that house to have to see JonBenet dead and cold. JR would have done far better to leave her where he found her and call for the detective to come to him, rather than run through the house with the child and make a spectacle of the whole thing.

    And I just don't buy the whole "he was so upset and so distraught that he didn't even think" excuse. IMO, he knew. He knew she was dead, he knew she was in that room, and he knew picking her up was not the correct way to deal with the scene to preserve evidence. Patsy knew too - that's why she didn't just get right up and go running when she heard JR say he'd found JB - she had to be led down the hall by friends because she didn't want to have to see her own daughter lying there dead, either....but the show must go on, and Jesus must be begged.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuisanceposter
    It's a truly horrible and gruesome thought. JR says in DOI that JonBenet's skin was cool to the touch, and that she was stiff as he carried her, but then he needed Detective Arndt to tell him she was dead...how could he not realize? If she's cold when you touch her and maintains a stiff and inflexible posture when she's picked up, she's not unconscious, she's gone.

    I cannot imagine how horrible it must have been for everyone in that house to have to see JonBenet dead and cold. JR would have done far better to leave her where he found her and call for the detective to come to him, rather than run through the house with the child and make a spectacle of the whole thing.

    And I just don't buy the whole "he was so upset and so distraught that he didn't even think" excuse. IMO, he knew. He knew she was dead, he knew she was in that room, and he knew picking her up was not the correct way to deal with the scene to preserve evidence. Patsy knew too - that's why she didn't just get right up and go running when she heard JR say he'd found JB - she had to be led down the hall by friends because she didn't want to have to see her own daughter lying there dead, either....but the show must go on, and Jesus must be begged.
    In the retelling of this whole scene add to it that Linda Arndt made eye contact with John Ramsey and in the moment knew.... and mentally started to count her bullets thiking the scene might require this.......Later on somehow apparently Arndt was schmooozed. I now await the book.

  6. #6
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    I have always been bothered by the fact that John carried JB upstairs. I understand
    that logic goes out the window in a situation like that but I would think my response would be to just scream and scream. I would be frozen and assume the police and everyone else would run down to me. I understand the untying and the removal of the tape, but choosing to carry her upstairs is strange to me. It is also inconsistant with the attempt to remove the tape and ties, to give aid to JB. I would be curious how many people who discover and injured or dead body actually move the body .

    mjak

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by coloradokares
    In the retelling of this whole scene add to it that Linda Arndt made eye contact with John Ramsey and in the moment knew.... and mentally started to count her bullets thiking the scene might require this.......Later on somehow apparently Arndt was schmooozed. I now await the book.
    I read that part too- makes you wonder the intensity of the eye contact for her to count her bullets and mentally know that she had 18, in case it came to it. As far as I know, she has never elaborated on this comment. If anyone knows different, please tell!

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by coloradokares
    In the retelling of this whole scene add to it that Linda Arndt made eye contact with John Ramsey and in the moment knew.... and mentally started to count her bullets thiking the scene might require this.......Later on somehow apparently Arndt was schmooozed. I now await the book.
    Usually our first impressions seem to be the correct assumptions. I think Linda Arndt was right in her assumption that she was not looking into the eyes of a father that had nothing to do with his daughter's death.

    I too get traumatized when I think about John "finding" her and carrying her up the stairs. My whole body aches when I even try to imagine what happened in that house during those few minutes of hell on earth. I'm sure that the people there that day (the witnesses like the Fernies, Fleet White) have had counseling to try to deal with the nightmare of that day. Beyond hell on earth.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by coloradokares
    In the retelling of this whole scene add to it that Linda Arndt made eye contact with John Ramsey and in the moment knew.... and mentally started to count her bullets thiking the scene might require this.......Later on somehow apparently Arndt was schmooozed. I now await the book.
    me too.I think she should have went with her first reaction ..I believe she was right on then...how quickly she forgot.
    something to ponder:

    When the corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and the mortal have put on immortality, then shall we be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?

    The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
    But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    1 Corinthians 15:54-57

  10. #10
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    Fleet White knew from her cold feet that she was dead.

    John knew he was messing the crime-scene up by bringing JonBenet's corpse upstairs, and once Patsy flung herself over JonBenet they would have both known, even without communicating, that the forensic evidence was now corrupt.


    John had to find her body nobody else had, and he preferred daylight to fly to another state. Any profiler worth his salt will tell you that this was a red-flag!


    .


  11. #11
    After thinking about what I would do...I have no idea. I never had something that horrible happen to me.

    A parents first instinct is to not believe what they are seeing.

    Anyone ever pick up a stiff dead body?
    ...We have said to ourselves, look, there is never going to be a victory in this, there is no victory...John Ramsey: 6/24/98

  12. #12
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    I've picked up a dead stiff body - but just a pet, never a human, let alone my own child. One of my cats went out and ate something he shouldn't have, and came home and died in the chair in the living room overnight. He was stiff when I found him the next morning, and I had to lift him to wrap him in towels to bury him. I knew he was dead before I picked him up, and I knew he would feel like wood in my hands. As soon as I looked at him, I could tell he was gone. I called his name anyway.

    If JR ripped the tape off of her face, and tried to untie the knots, he must have noticed she was cold and stiff, even if he didn't know it just by looking at her. He certainly should have noticed she was too stiff to be alive the second he lifted her up off the floor. I think he carried her upstairs because he wanted to corrupt the crime scene...but I wonder about him doubting what he saw, since I think he already knew she was dead and that she was in that room waiting to be found.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy
    Fleet White knew from her cold feet that she was dead.

    John knew he was messing the crime-scene up by bringing JonBenet's corpse upstairs, and once Patsy flung herself over JonBenet they would have both known, even without communicating, that the forensic evidence was now corrupt.


    John had to find her body nobody else had, and he preferred daylight to fly to another state. Any profiler worth his salt will tell you that this was a red-flag!


    .

    UKGuy,

    Correct. John was a crime buff of sorts and certainly knew from his readings that a crime scene should not be disturbed, especially the body at a murder scene. As far as trying to leave the state and fly to Georgia, John is carrying out an irresistable behavior displayed in most criminals when caught. They want to flee in order to buy time to establish their alibi.

    Incidentally, John didn't carry JonBenet upstairs and put her in the living room near the Christmas tree. John laid JonBenet down on the floor at the top of the basement stairs. It was Linda Arndt who moved JonBenet from that spot to the Christmas tree in the living room.

    BlueCrab

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCrab
    UKGuy,

    Correct. John was a crime buff of sorts and certainly knew from his readings that a crime scene should not be disturbed, especially the body at a murder scene. As far as trying to leave the state and fly to Georgia, John is carrying out an irresistable behavior displayed in most criminals when caught. They want to flee in order to buy time to establish their alibi.

    Incidentally, John didn't carry JonBenet upstairs and put her in the living room near the Christmas tree. John laid JonBenet down on the floor at the top of the basement stairs. It was Linda Arndt who moved JonBenet from that spot to the Christmas tree in the living room.

    BlueCrab
    It was Patsy who watched part of the OJ Simpson trial. When he was found not guilty...she runs out to the backyard and tells the gardener.
    ...We have said to ourselves, look, there is never going to be a victory in this, there is no victory...John Ramsey: 6/24/98

  15. #15
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    I do not think picking up the body is what is questionable here. I can deffinitly understand a parent instinctivly putting their child in their arms. Its the carrying the child upstairs that does not sit right with me.

    mjak

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