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  1. #1
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    Psychological Autopsy of Patsy Ramsey

    The key question in the JBR case for me is "Who was Patsy Ramsey"?

    One major difficulty is that, since the Ramseys have successfully evaded justice, no professional psychological evaluation has ever been done on them.
    So when trying to analyze her, we'll largely have to rely on our own psychological knowledge, our own experience.
    At an autopsy, the first step is always to view the body from the outside, and I'll try to approach the person Patsy that way too as a first step:

    Patsy "seen from the outside" seems to have been a woman upon whom the Goddess Fortuna had showered a cornucopia of precious gifts:
    Not only was Patsy beautiful, she was also intelligent and had a university degree. She did not come from a broken home, but from a close-knit middle class family.
    She struck it rich in her marriage, her doting and generous multimillionaire husband denying her nothing, enabling her to indulge in lavish decorating sprees in her splendid homes.
    She had two healthy, beautiful and intelligent children, a boy and a girl.
    What more could Patsy Ramsey wish for in her life ? She "had it all", so to speak.
    And even when a dark shadow - cancer - showed up in her paradise, Patsy again was among the fortunate ones in the end. For she could pay for the best medical treatment available, and finallly beat ovarian cancer, one of the most aggressive and rapidly fatal cances which exist. Again she was lucky.

    But what lay behind that glamorous surface? What do we really know about this woman's inner life?
    The picture which poster Cookie (who is great photographer) put in the "New Globe is out" thread on FFJ(#138 post) is very interesting:

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/sho...ge=12&pp=12

    Cookie is actually Judith Phillips, a friend of Patsy's whose comments on the family are also in Schiller's book PMPT.
    She seems to have known Patsy pretty well.
    That picture sent chills down my spine. Nedra looks like a 'battleax' type of woman and I ask myself what kind of mother she was to her daughters. Probably not the warm and giving type, more a very demanding type.
    It is also immensely interesting what Judith Phillips said about Patsy's mother Nedra: (PMPT, pb., p. 249):

    "Well, Judith, we're just getting Jon Benet into a few pageants ."
    "Why would you do something like that?"
    "You know, she's not too young to get started."
    "And what if JonBenet isn't willing" I asked. "What if she says, I'm not going to do it? How would you respond to that"
    "Oh Judith, we would never consider her saying no. We would tell JonBenet, "You must do it. You will be Miss Pageant."

    It was sort of eerie. A litte scary. The inevitability of it - from grandmother to mother and now to daughter.

    Eerie indeed. How many "choices" did a mother like Nedra leave to her daughter Patsy? What could Patsy decide for herself?
    What seems to be completely missing in Patsy's life was a 'phase of rebellion' which so many young people go through. Where they question their parents' values, where they try to find out who they are and what they really want for themselves, but in Patsy's case, nothing of the kind happened.
    Patsy seems to have wanted what Nedra wanted, and took over right where Nedra left off: Patsy was a Miss West Virginia, and JonBenet was destined to climb the next step: Miss America.
    Was Patsy Ramsey a dutiful daughter almost "too good to be true"? Was she so trained and conditioned to be constantly put on display that in the process she lost contact to her inner self?

    From one of UKGuy's posts on another thread:
    psychology: Some profilers include a Psychological Autopsy in their toolkit, try google:http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...G=Google+Search

    Its used a lot by the US armed forces and the insurance industry, as well as Law Enforcement.

    I haven't looked it up yet, but it sure sounds interesting.

  2. #2
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    Quote:
    "And even when a dark shadow - cancer - showed up in her paradise, Patsy again was among the fortunate ones in the end. For she could pay for the best medical treatment available, and finallly beat ovarian cancer, one of the most aggressive and rapidly fatal cances which exist. Again she was lucky."
    End Quote.

    Um...I don't know if you wrote that Rashomon, or if it was copied from the link you provided, but either way it's way off base. Patsy wasn't lucky in regards to her ovarian cancer. Patsy didn't beat her ovarian cancer. It is what killed her at such a young age. I don't know how it can be said that "she was one of the fortunate ones in the end"-----NO, in the end, it killed her. What is so "lucky" about that????

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by julianne
    Quote:
    "And even when a dark shadow - cancer - showed up in her paradise, Patsy again was among the fortunate ones in the end. For she could pay for the best medical treatment available, and finallly beat ovarian cancer, one of the most aggressive and rapidly fatal cances which exist. Again she was lucky."
    End Quote.

    Um...I don't know if you wrote that Rashomon, or if it was copied from the link you provided, but either way it's way off base. Patsy wasn't lucky in regards to her ovarian cancer. Patsy didn't beat her ovarian cancer. It is what killed her at such a young age. I don't know how it can be said that "she was one of the fortunate ones in the end"-----NO, in the end, it killed her. What is so "lucky" about that????
    Julianne at the time of JonBenet's death Patsy was considered to be cancer free. It claimed her life in a return battle 9 years 6 months after JonBenets death. Please understand that is incredible longevity for stage 4 ovarian cancer. Not that death is easily ever acceptable due to cancer. However prognosis on Ovarian cancer discovered at that level is far far less. Usually months. Maybe a few years if all stops are pulled out. So this is to many families who have lost loved ones due to this cancer would seem incredible. I think that is what was being said was Patsy was indeed fortunateto have incredible resources to help enable her to fight this at her disposal Not all cancer patients receive that level of care. Uninsured and underinsured patients do not receive cutting edge treatment. Many choose hospice knowing the extreme financial hardship that would be placed on them at this already difficult time. I had a friend who thought she'd really been blessed to have the additional 19 months she lived with the same diagnosis. Another lived not quite 6 months. One day lets hope there is a measure of equality for all. Every life is equally valuable. CK

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by rashomon

    She struck it rich in her marriage, her doting and generous multimillionaire husband denying her nothing, enabling her to indulge in lavish decorating sprees in her splendid homes.

    rashomon,

    The above sentence could be misinterpreted. Actually, when John and Patsy married, John was not rich. John and Patsy started the business together in their garage, and they made it a success together.

    BlueCrab

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCrab
    rashomon,

    The above sentence could be misinterpreted. Actually, when John and Patsy married, John was not rich. John and Patsy started the business together in their garage, and they made it a success together.

    BlueCrab
    While that is true, it was not years and years in coming. John was always the force of the business and I don't think Patsy had any problem at all acknowledging that. The garage didn't last long at all.

  6. #6
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    I agree with Julianne that having cancer that ends up taking your life is not fortunate or lucky,whatever the means you have to battle it,cancer is cancer ... it's not lucky.It's not fortunate.

    I agree with BlueCrab,that Patsy was not forunate or lucky to marry into money,they were struggling from the beginning,and they both worked at it to bring the business to where it was successful.

    As far as Nedra ... I don't know how one picture can give you chills,and bring you to the conclusion she was a battleaxe,when she was told to pose straight and serious like a soldier. As far as the quote you took from Judith Philllips,Judith also says,that Nedra was kind to her,and she didn't see her as the tyrant type.She also was amazed at the dedication Nedra gave to Patsy at her time of need,when she was recovering from cancer.

    Rashomon,it seems your psychological autopsy of Patsy Ramsey has many flaws.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCrab
    rashomon,

    The above sentence could be misinterpreted. Actually, when John and Patsy married, John was not rich. John and Patsy started the business together in their garage, and they made it a success together.

    BlueCrab
    I know about this, BlueCrab. I meant by 'struck it rich' the later financial status of the marriage, when John became rich.
    I meant it in the sense of 'again Patsy was lucky': the man she married was such a successful businessman later that he became a multimillionaire.
    And Patsy's ambition and drive certainly had been of help to John here.

    But you are right, "she struck it rich" could be misinterpreted of her marrying someone who was already rich (and maybe marrying him because he was rich). But this was not the case here.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by capps
    I agree with Julianne that having cancer that ends up taking your life is not fortunate or lucky,whatever the means you have to battle it,cancer is cancer ... it's not lucky.It's not fortunate.

    I agree with BlueCrab,that Patsy was not forunate or lucky to marry into money,they were struggling from the beginning,and they both worked at it to bring the business to where it was successful.

    As far as Nedra ... I don't know how one picture can give you chills,and bring you to the conclusion she was a battleaxe,when she was told to pose straight and serious like a soldier. As far as the quote you took from Judith Philllips,Judith also says,that Nedra was kind to her,and she didn't see her as the tyrant type.She also was amazed at the dedication Nedra gave to Patsy at her time of need,when she was recovering from cancer.

    Rashomon,it seems your psychological autopsy of Patsy Ramsey has many flaws.
    Photograpy is my hobby, and I'm often surprised at how much people's personality will still shine through even if they are told to pose as someone else, or like someone else.
    Judith Philips said that Nedra was kind to her, but also that it was clear that Nedra was the head of the family.
    'Commanding officer' Nedra. That's what I see in his picture.
    And that to Nedra it was completely out of the question for JB to say "no" to the pageants is also very telling imo.
    If she was that pushy with her granddaughter, how pushy had she been with her own daughter Patsy?
    Nedra obviously was a very strong presence also in Patsy's adult life.
    "As long as John Ramsey brings in the money, we're going to spend it", quite a selfish comment by Nedra. It's the "we" (Patsy and Nedra? Or the whole Paugh clan?) which stands out here. Nedra obviously felt it she too had the right to spend John's money, although it wasn't her money.
    S. Thomas visited Nedra at her home and was struck how totally obsessed she was with pageants. And at JB's funeral ceremony, she proudly showed visitors the embalmed child in her pageant outfit and tiara. (ST, p. 62). Chilling.

    Rashomon,it seems your psychological autopsy of Patsy Ramsey has many flaws.
    It is not 'my' psychological autopsy of Patsy Ramsey; I have started a thread because it interests me very much how we all see her.
    Last edited by rashomon; 02-06-2007 at 12:01 PM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by rashomon
    Photograpy is my hobby, and I'm often surprised at how much people's personality will still shine through even if they are told to pose as someone else, or like someone else.
    Judith Philips said that Nedra was kind to her, but also that it was clear that Nedra was the head of the family.
    'Commanding officer' Nedra. That's what I see in his picture.
    And that to Nedra it was completely out of the question for JB to say "no" to the pageants is also very telling imo.
    If she was that pushy with her granddaughter, how pushy had she been with her own daughter Patsy?
    Nedra obviously was a very strong presence also in Patsy's adult life.

    It is not 'my' psychological autopsy of Patsy Ramsey; I have started a thread because it interests me very much how we all see her.
    It's simply a matter of opinion---Photography has also been my hobby for a great many years, and if you are involved in photography yourself, surely you must know that a photograph can depict a completely different story than the one "real life" is portraying. I have taken hundreds of photographs that attest to the fact that you can capture subjects on film who, by simple elements such as posing & lighting, can "appear" completely opposite than they are in real life. So, while it can be said that oftentimes peoples personalities show through on film, there is another side of the coin that figures just as prominently that film can hide and even "change" someones real life perceptions. The very first thing you learn about photography is that although a photo can tell many stories, it's just as easy for the photo to depict and portray certain nuances of someone that is opposite from who they really are, by simple lighting and posing elements.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by rashomon
    I know about this, BlueCrab. I meant by 'struck it rich' the later financial status of the marriage, when John became rich.
    I meant it in the sense of 'again Patsy was lucky': the man she married was such a successful businessman later that he became a multimillionaire.
    And Patsy's ambition and drive certainly had been of help to John here.

    But you are right, "she struck it rich" could be misinterpreted of her marrying someone who was already rich (and maybe marrying him because he was rich). But this was not the case here.
    John was never so poor he didn't have two nickles to rub together in the pockets. Upper Middle Class ......He at least had the money and wherewithall to get the business going with a small loan from his father in law Don Paugh. So lets not put them on the downtrodden list. He'd just been through a divorce with kids.....


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by julianne
    It's simply a matter of opinion---Photography has also been my hobby for a great many years, and if you are involved in photography yourself, surely you must know that a photograph can depict a completely different story than the one "real life" is portraying. I have taken hundreds of photographs that attest to the fact that you can capture subjects on film who, by simple elements such as posing & lighting, can "appear" completely opposite than they are in real life. So, while it can be said that oftentimes peoples personalities show through on film, there is another side of the coin that figures just as prominently that film can hide and even "change" someones real life perceptions. The very first thing you learn about photography is that although a photo can tell many stories, it's just as easy for the photo to depict and portray certain nuances of someone that is opposite from who they really are, by simple lighting and posing elements.
    I am not a photographer. As mentioned above it was the set of the jawline and the set of the eyes. It was like a facade. Like she needed to look a certain way....it said I am wealthy and privileged. Also ice princess. One of the most wonderful photos I saw of Patsy though was with JonBenet and they looked so much alike and Patsy nor JonBenet had a ton of makeup on. I wish we'd of seen more photos like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coloradokares
    I am not a photographer. As mentioned above it was the set of the jawline and the set of the eyes. It was like a facade. Like she needed to look a certain way....it said I am wealthy and privileged. Also ice princess. One of the most wonderful photos I saw of Patsy though was with JonBenet and they looked so much alike and Patsy nor JonBenet had a ton of makeup on. I wish we'd of seen more photos like that.
    That picture made absolutely NO sense to me. What was the theme supposed to be, anyway? They all look mean, and stiff.... and then JB is saluting....what is with THAT? They should have been dressed up in military garb...and had a nazi symbol behind them, and a picture of Hitler....I don't mean to offend...but, thats what came to my mind when I saw it.
    "This time we get it right."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ames
    That picture made absolutely NO sense to me. What was the theme supposed to be, anyway? They all look mean, and stiff.... and then JB is saluting....what is with THAT? They should have been dressed up in military garb...and had a nazi symbol behind them, and a picture of Hitler....I don't mean to offend...but, thats what came to my mind when I saw it.
    Me too. It was bizarre in its way.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ames
    That picture made absolutely NO sense to me. What was the theme supposed to be, anyway? They all look mean, and stiff.... and then JB is saluting....what is with THAT? They should have been dressed up in military garb...and had a nazi symbol behind them, and a picture of Hitler....I don't mean to offend...but, thats what came to my mind when I saw it.
    It looks like one of those pics you take at the fair or a carnival..where the subjects dress up in old-fashioned clothes. (no offense meant to Judith,I'm sure she's a good photographer).
    something to ponder:

    When the corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and the mortal have put on immortality, then shall we be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?

    The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
    But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    1 Corinthians 15:54-57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ames
    That picture made absolutely NO sense to me. What was the theme supposed to be, anyway? They all look mean, and stiff.... and then JB is saluting....what is with THAT? They should have been dressed up in military garb...and had a nazi symbol behind them, and a picture of Hitler....I don't mean to offend...but, thats what came to my mind when I saw it.
    Did someone post an actual picure or link to one specific photo. I must have missed it Ames if you could re post the link or tell me where to go see the one your speaking of I'd appreciated it totally. Thanks

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