ATTENTION: IDI's...please explain.....

Ames · Feb 6, 2007

Even when JonBenet's body was found...John simply yelled..."I found her"...and Fleet yelled to "call an ambulance"....STILL....Patsy's butt sat on the couch, not budging an inch. If it were me, and my husband had yelled "I FOUND her!"....and Fleet yelled to call an ambulance....here is MY thoughts and actions. "OH MY GOSH.....THANK you God.....she has been found IN THE HOUSE....she must be injured, since Fleet said to call an ambulance, and since she is still IN THE HOUSE. I have to get to her her...and see if I can help!!! Everybody...get out of my way...because I am COMING through...I have to help my baby". Patsy's reaction: She still stayed seated....not budging an inch....her friends had to PULL her down the hallway. What a strange reaction for someone that SUPPOSEDLY didn't know if her child was alive and injured...or dead. People would have been trying to HOLD ME BACK...because I would have been knocking people down to get to my MAYBE injured child....not having to PULL me down the hallway. My thoughts are that Patsy KNEW that JB was dead.....HOW did she know, you ask? Because, she is the one that killed her...IMO She killed "THAT child". I want to know the thoughts of the IDI's....how do you explain Patsy's behavior?

hipmamajen · Feb 6, 2007

Not an IDI, but I was just chiming in to say that that *IS* weird and I never thought about it before.

I lost one of my kids in the house for a while. She had snuck into my closet and fallen asleep under some sleeping bags. I looked and looked for her, and completely freaked out. I called 911, and they had me look around the neighbor's houses for her while they sent a car over.

The whole ordeal took about an hour from when I realized she was gone to when I found her, and I NEVER stopped looking the whole time. Even though I knew I'd already looked everywhere, I just kept looking again. As stupid as it was, I even got the baby out of the crib to see if she was somehow in there. I couldn't have just sat on the couch, I was out of my head!

coloradokares · Feb 6, 2007

hipmamajen said:
Not an IDI, but I was just chiming in to say that that *IS* weird and I never thought about it before.

I lost one of my kids in the house for a while. She had snuck into my closet and fallen asleep under some sleeping bags. I looked and looked for her, and completely freaked out. I called 911, and they had me look around the neighbor's houses for her while they sent a car over.

The whole ordeal took about an hour from when I realized she was gone to when I found her, and I NEVER stopped looking the whole time. Even though I knew I'd already looked everywhere, I just kept looking again. As stupid as it was, I even got the baby out of the crib to see if she was somehow in there. I couldn't have just sat on the couch, I was out of my head!

Yes and that would be a totally normal reaction....

BlueCrab · Feb 6, 2007

Ames said:
Even when JonBenet's body was found...John simply yelled..."I found her"...and Fleet yelled to "call an ambulance"....STILL....Patsy's butt sat on the couch, not budging an inch. If it were me, and my husband had yelled "I FOUND her!"....and Fleet yelled to call an ambulance....here is MY thoughts and actions. "OH MY GOSH.....THANK you God.....she has been found IN THE HOUSE....she must be injured, since Fleet said to call an ambulance, and since she is still IN THE HOUSE. I have to get to her her...and see if I can help!!! Everybody...get out of my way...because I am COMING through...I have to help my baby". Patsy's reaction: She still stayed seated....not budging an inch....her friends had to PULL her down the hallway. What a strange reaction for someone that SUPPOSEDLY didn't know if her child was alive and injured...or dead. People would have been trying to HOLD ME BACK...because I would have been knocking people down to get to my MAYBE injured child....not having to PULL me down the hallway. My thoughts are that Patsy KNEW that JB was dead.....HOW did she know, you ask? Because, she is the one that killed her...IMO She killed "THAT child". I want to know the thoughts of the IDI's....how do you explain Patsy's behavior?

Ames,

I'm not an IDI theorist either, but that was a very good post, and I fully agree with it except for your conclusion -- it doesn't prove Patsy did it anymore than anyone else did it who was in the house that night. Her sitting on the sofa and not running to see if JonBenet was alive or dead after being "found" strongly suggests she knew JonBenet was dead, and was involved deeply in the coverup, but that's all.

BlueCrab

narlacat · Feb 6, 2007

BlueCrab said:
Ames,

I'm not an IDI theorist either, but that was a very good post, and I fully agree with it except for your conclusion -- it doesn't prove Patsy did it anymore than anyone else did it who was in the house that night. Her sitting on the sofa and not running to see if JonBenet was alive or dead after being "found" strongly suggests she knew JonBenet was dead, and was involved deeply in the coverup, but that's all.

BlueCrab

Yes, that's right BC.

It is overwhelmingly obvious that the Ramsey's had something to do with their daughter's death.

One of them killed her, and more than likely accidently.

It drives me crazy not knowing which one did what.

I tend to think it was PR, in a rage, but that doesn't explain to me the sexual abuse, yes it could have been corporal punishment but I just don't know...

The most obvious is that they were covering for their son, but I still don't discount PR happening upon JR abusing JBR and PR losing it and JBR somehow winding up dead.

There is no question in my mind that a Ramsey is responsible for JBRs death.

Credence · Feb 6, 2007

FS here. Mostly lurk but had to respond to this. In extremely stressful situations people react differently. They can either fight, flee or freeze. Simply, Patsy froze and it was no indication of guilt or non-guilt. She was afraid, fear overtook her and her body simply shut down.

coloradokares · Feb 6, 2007

narlacat said:
Yes, that's right BC.

It is overwhelmingly obvious that the Ramsey's had something to do with their daughter's death.

One of them killed her, and more than likely accidently.

It drives me crazy not knowing which one did what.

I tend to think it was PR, in a rage, but that doesn't explain to me the sexual abuse, yes it could have been corporal punishment but I just don't know...

The most obvious is that they were covering for their son, but I still don't discount PR happening upon JR abusing JBR and PR losing it and JBR somehow winding up dead.

There is no question in my mind that a Ramsey is responsible for JBRs death.

When speaking with a person in a postion to know more than you or me. I was told why do you presume it was only one.. corporal punishement or sexual abuse. What is it about one that would cancel out the other.......great question

Ames · Feb 6, 2007

hipmamajen said:
Not an IDI, but I was just chiming in to say that that *IS* weird and I never thought about it before.

I lost one of my kids in the house for a while. She had snuck into my closet and fallen asleep under some sleeping bags. I looked and looked for her, and completely freaked out. I called 911, and they had me look around the neighbor's houses for her while they sent a car over.

The whole ordeal took about an hour from when I realized she was gone to when I found her, and I NEVER stopped looking the whole time. Even though I knew I'd already looked everywhere, I just kept looking again. As stupid as it was, I even got the baby out of the crib to see if she was somehow in there. I couldn't have just sat on the couch, I was out of my head!

Yep, one of MY children...who was four at the time..(last year) sneaked out of the house, and we couldn't find her anywhere. I did the same thing that you did with the crib, only I was looking IN the cabinets in the kitchen for her, and in some drawers (she was FOUR...like she would have fit in a drawer...but I was in a panic). We were frantic...and walking up and down the sidewalks, screaming her name, and knocking on doors. We finally found her....safe...but, in some lady's (that we didn't know) house down the street. How many doors did the Ramsey's knock on that night?? Why did Patsy sit on the couch looking at photos of JB....(as if she "knew" that JB was already dead....why would you look at photos of a MISSING child? That would be pretty ridiculous)...and was not searching the house for her....turning it upside down??

Ames · Feb 6, 2007

Credence said:
FS here. Mostly lurk but had to respond to this. In extremely stressful situations people react differently. They can either fight, flee or freeze. Simply, Patsy froze and it was no indication of guilt or non-guilt. She was afraid, fear overtook her and her body simply shut down.

I can appreciate your point here...but Patsy must have not been TOO stressed out. She sat on the couch and looked at photos of JB with her friends, while JB was "missing". Why would a parent look at photos of their MISSING child....when they all could be out scouring the yard (did they even look outside for JB?)....knocking on doors...turning the house upside down. Shoot...why should Patsy get up from the couch and search the house with her friends....WHEN she could sit in the same spot, not move a muscle...and look at photos of her "MISSING" daughter? Now THAT really sounds productive...now doesn't it? I just don't buy your theory that Patsy was in a stressful situation and reacted differently. Even though you are a FS...explaining away the Ramsey's actions....by saying..."well, everyone reacts differently"....is something that IDI's do all the time. I bet that if the case ever went to court...and it came out that John or Patsy killed their daughter in a rage...alot of people would defend them, by saying..."Well, you know...now I personally wouldn't have done it that way, and killed my child...BUT...everyone reacts differently to stressful situations". I am not saying that YOU would say that...but, there are some people that would defend the Ramsey's NO MATTER WHAT. I don't care if they had admitted their guilt....some people out there would have made excuses for them.

Ames · Feb 6, 2007

coloradokares said:
Yes and that would be a totally normal reaction....

Agreed...and what Patsy did was NOT normal...I don't care what anybody says.

Credence · Feb 7, 2007

Ames said:
I can appreciate your point here...but Patsy must have not been TOO stressed out. She sat on the couch and looked at photos of JB with her friends, while JB was "missing". Why would a parent look at photos of their MISSING child....when they all could be out scouring the yard (did they even look outside for JB?)....knocking on doors...turning the house upside down. Shoot...why should Patsy get up from the couch and search the house with her friends....WHEN she could sit in the same spot, not move a muscle...and look at photos of her "MISSING" daughter? Now THAT really sounds productive...now doesn't it? I just don't buy your theory that Patsy was in a stressful situation and reacted differently. Even though you are a FS...explaining away the Ramsey's actions....by saying..."well, everyone reacts differently"....is something that IDI's do all the time. I bet that if the case ever went to court...and it came out that John or Patsy killed their daughter in a rage...alot of people would defend them, by saying..."Well, you know...now I personally wouldn't have done it that way, and killed my child...BUT...everyone reacts differently to stressful situations". I am not saying that YOU would say that...but, there are some people that would defend the Ramsey's NO MATTER WHAT. I don't care if they had admitted their guilt....some people out there would have made excuses for them.

Wow tough crowd here. LOL No I'm not making excuses just calling it as I see it. Thank goodness I have never had to experience the death of a child. I have no idea how I would react and neither does anyone else unless they've walked in her shoes. Fact: Although situations can be similar; people DO react differently. I don't know if Patsy killer JonBenet or not; but I won't judge her based on what I perceive to be "proper behavior"; but hey that's me.

JMO8778 · Feb 7, 2007

Ames said:
How many doors did the Ramsey's knock on that night?? Why did Patsy sit on the couch looking at photos of JB....(as if she "knew" that JB was already dead....why would you look at photos of a MISSING child? That would be pretty ridiculous)...and was not searching the house for her....turning it upside down??

Right on,they would have been ripping that house apart,not to mention the entire yard and neighborhood,esp since they'd obv. let LE know,in spite of being told they were being 'monitored'.
Looking at pictures is something ppl do after a death,as well as I don't think PR would have let herself be sedated if JB was truly missing..she would have wanted to have all the energy she could have so she could help out.

Jayelles · Feb 7, 2007

Ames said:
I can appreciate your point here...but Patsy must have not been TOO stressed out. She sat on the couch and looked at photos of JB with her friends, while JB was "missing". Why would a parent look at photos of their MISSING child....when they all could be out scouring the yard (did they even look outside for JB?)....knocking on doors...turning the house upside down. Shoot...why should Patsy get up from the couch and search the house with her friends....WHEN she could sit in the same spot, not move a muscle...and look at photos of her "MISSING" daughter? Now THAT really sounds productive...now doesn't it? I just don't buy your theory that Patsy was in a stressful situation and reacted differently. Even though you are a FS...explaining away the Ramsey's actions....by saying..."well, everyone reacts differently"....is something that IDI's do all the time. I bet that if the case ever went to court...and it came out that John or Patsy killed their daughter in a rage...alot of people would defend them, by saying..."Well, you know...now I personally wouldn't have done it that way, and killed my child...BUT...everyone reacts differently to stressful situations". I am not saying that YOU would say that...but, there are some people that would defend the Ramsey's NO MATTER WHAT. I don't care if they had admitted their guilt....some people out there would have made excuses for them.

Bear in mind that there was a ransom note which claimed that a foreign fction had the "missing" child. Now giving the Ramseys the benefit of the doubt.... if they thought that some unknown people were holding their chold - goodness knows where - what would be the point of searching round and about for her? I think if you were innocent and therefore believed in the note's authenticity, you wouldn't be searching your neighbourhood. Especially not if the kidnappers had threatened to behead your child.

Admittedly, I doubt I would have called all my friends around if the kidnappers said they were monitoring us and would behead our child if we spoke to a stray dog.... But then again, the Ramseys have done a lot of odd things.

julianne · Feb 7, 2007

Ames said:
but, there are some people that would defend the Ramsey's NO MATTER WHAT. I don't care if they had admitted their guilt....some people out there would have made excuses for them.

Just as there are people that would declare the Ramseys' guilty NO MATTER WHAT. Goes both ways, that can't be denied.

narlacat · Feb 7, 2007

coloradokares said:
When speaking with a person in a postion to know more than you or me. I was told why do you presume it was only one.. corporal punishement or sexual abuse. What is it about one that would cancel out the other.......great question

Well, for a little girl seemingly so lucky, could she have been that unlucky?

poco · Feb 7, 2007

Credence said:
FS here. Mostly lurk but had to respond to this. In extremely stressful situations people react differently. They can either fight, flee or freeze. Simply, Patsy froze and it was no indication of guilt or non-guilt. She was afraid, fear overtook her and her body simply shut down.

IMO it was definitely an indication of guilt. When John yelled he found her she very well could have still been alive - Patsy had no idea. The immediate relief you would feel at that point, thinking your daughter is alive, would not put you in a state of "shut down." All the fear would drain from your body and hope would surface and you would REACT!

If John had yelled, I found her and she is dead, yes, then I can see it, but he didn't.

Patsy didn't move because she knew JB was dead - now how the heck did she know that?

docwho3 · Feb 7, 2007

Credence said:
. . .I don't know if Patsy killer JonBenet or not; but I won't judge her based on what I perceive to be "proper behavior"; but hey that's me.

I think you make a valid point.

To know if there even is a consistent pattern of parental behavior in such circumstances I would think someone would have to have delivered the news of a child's murder to the parents in at least 100 cases to even have a real sense of what the reaction usually is like (to know what is always done or to know what is never done etc.) and then that person would have had to follow along to observe longer term behavior as well as the initial shocking first moments. I doubt most of us would have such detailed knowledge from actual experience and I have not heard much about any books of research on the subject (but I suppose books could easily be out there that I haven't heard of.) Even knowing what behavior, if any, is usual in such cases would only help us by raising a red flag to help us know to begin to investigate more for actual evidence.

There are some things about the evidence in the case that speak to me but that will have to be the subject of another post sometime.

I saw in another post where a comment was made that some people would defend some suspects no matter what, so before any posting member thinks I am defending anyone in this case let me say that I am not defending or making excuses for any suspect/s in this case. Someone made a valid point and I thought it good to admit it. When the guilty are proven it will be evidence that turns the day, regardless of any red flags that may be raised by our opinions of behavior and at this point I am not sure we know enough of behaviors in such circumstances to even know a red flag should or should not be raised.

UKGuy · Feb 7, 2007

Ames said:
Even when JonBenet's body was found...John simply yelled..."I found her"...and Fleet yelled to "call an ambulance"....STILL....Patsy's butt sat on the couch, not budging an inch. If it were me, and my husband had yelled "I FOUND her!"....and Fleet yelled to call an ambulance....here is MY thoughts and actions. "OH MY GOSH.....THANK you God.....she has been found IN THE HOUSE....she must be injured, since Fleet said to call an ambulance, and since she is still IN THE HOUSE. I have to get to her her...and see if I can help!!! Everybody...get out of my way...because I am COMING through...I have to help my baby". Patsy's reaction: She still stayed seated....not budging an inch....her friends had to PULL her down the hallway. What a strange reaction for someone that SUPPOSEDLY didn't know if her child was alive and injured...or dead. People would have been trying to HOLD ME BACK...because I would have been knocking people down to get to my MAYBE injured child....not having to PULL me down the hallway. My thoughts are that Patsy KNEW that JB was dead.....HOW did she know, you ask? Because, she is the one that killed her...IMO She killed "THAT child". I want to know the thoughts of the IDI's....how do you explain Patsy's behavior?

Ames,

HOW did she know, you ask? Because, she is the one that killed her...IMO She killed "THAT child". I want to know the thoughts of the IDI's....how do you explain Patsy's

Your opinion is not enough to convict Patsy in a court of law, some evidence is required, otherwise it's trial by opinion.

My thoughts are that Patsy KNEW that JB was dead

Patsy may have known JonBenet was dead, but from this it does not follow that she was the person who killed her!

Patsy's behaviour is simply yet another red-flag!

.

Solace · Feb 7, 2007

UKGuy said:
Ames,

Your opinion is not enough to convict Patsy in a court of law, some evidence is required, otherwise it's trial by opinion.

Patsy may have known JonBenet was dead, but from this it does not follow that she was the person who killed her!

Patsy's behaviour is simply yet another red-flag!

.

Are the fibers from Patsy's sweater under the tape UNDER JB's mouth and in the garrotte and in the paint box another red flag. Ames is not saying her opinion is enough to convict anyone. She is however pointing out evidence that would convict if we had an honest group of District Attorneys in Boulder. The fibers alone put Patsy with Jon Benet in the cellar. John's fibers were found in the vaginal area. Splinters were found inside Jon Benet. We are talking circumstantial evidence here UK, most people are convicted on circumstantial evidence.

Ames posted one of the most astute posts in months yesterday. Patsy did not move when she heard Fleet call "get an ambulance". It SPEAKS VOLUMES. Volumes.

Cypros · Feb 7, 2007

Jayelles said:
Bear in mind that there was a ransom note which claimed that a foreign fction had the "missing" child. Now giving the Ramseys the benefit of the doubt.... if they thought that some unknown people were holding their chold - goodness knows where - what would be the point of searching round and about for her? I think if you were innocent and therefore believed in the note's authenticity, you wouldn't be searching your neighbourhood. Especially not if the kidnappers had threatened to behead your child.

Admittedly, I doubt I would have called all my friends around if the kidnappers said they were monitoring us and would behead our child if we spoke to a stray dog.... But then again, the Ramseys have done a lot of odd things.

I am definitely not an IDI and I believe that PR and JR are responsible for what happened to JBR. However, I do not think that the fact that they were not tearing up the house is an indication of guilt since there was a ransom note indicating that JBR had been taken form the house. I believe I would rush to her room and her brother's room to search there and check that the other child was okay. I would also run around the house looking for her and check for doors and windows that might show an intruder's entrance and probably run outside hoping for some evidence for which direction she was taken, but I doubt I would spend hours and hours searching in closets and drawers and under beds if there was a ransom note. I would be sitting at that phone waiting for that call for instructions to get my child back safe and sound.

I DO agree with the original post that Patsy's refusal to move in the direction of her found daughter suggests that she already knew the child was dead. Fleet's cry for an ambulance would imply that there was at least hope that she was alive.

ATTENTION: IDI's...please explain.....

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