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  1. #1
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    Autopsy 2

    The other thread got a bit long for fickle ole me,lol.

    I've posted this at ctv for Hawthorn and of course I love WS, so it goes here too
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    I've done some work on my computer.

    The fractures aren't exact, but it should give a better idea of the base fracture.

    In the second one I've added in the temporal fracture for reference only.

    http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w...arfracture.jpg

    http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w...lfractures.jpg

    Sami

  2. #2
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    Thanks Sami, makes it quite a bit clearer. Are you having fun?
    Racing Doesn't Lie

  3. #3
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    As always Sami, thanks for everything you do here. You bring these complicated issues into our realm of understanding.

  4. #4
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    Sami,


    You might be able to help me with a question, maybe not and if not I'll understand. One of the most amazing things to me is how a criminalist decides what blood samples to collect for DNA analysis from a very bloody crime scene. In particular what may clue a criminalist to believe a certain blood droplet or stain or whatever, may point to a perpertrator rather than the victim. General theory is all I am wondering about.

    For example - one of the things that nailed Dyleski to the murder of Pamela Vitale was the collection and subsequent analysis of a small blood sample collected from the heel of one of her feet. I believe you indicated you briefly reviewed that AR - this still amazes me how a criminalist made the decision to collect a sample from this location.

    Any "simple" insight you can give ? I quess my main thought is I am hoping for something similar to be produced in the Michelle Young case. Thanks in advance Sami !
    Racing Doesn't Lie

  5. #5
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    TOD calculator.

    http://www.pathguy.com/TimeDead.htm


    Good link with TOD calculator.



    Assume Full rigor, livor-unfixed (since moved to back later), 86.8 core body temp (backed into this based on 12 am to 6 am reported)

    95% chance death occured between 12:12 am and 5:48 am

    Estimated TOD is estimated is 3 am

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisincharlie
    Sami,


    You might be able to help me with a question, maybe not and if not I'll understand. One of the most amazing things to me is how a criminalist decides what blood samples to collect for DNA analysis from a very bloody crime scene. In particular what may clue a criminalist to believe a certain blood droplet or stain or whatever, may point to a perpertrator rather than the victim. General theory is all I am wondering about.

    For example - one of the things that nailed Dyleski to the murder of Pamela Vitale was the collection and subsequent analysis of a small blood sample collected from the heel of one of her feet. I believe you indicated you briefly reviewed that AR - this still amazes me how a criminalist made the decision to collect a sample from this location.

    Any "simple" insight you can give ? I quess my main thought is I am hoping for something similar to be produced in the Michelle Young case. Thanks in advance Sami !
    Hiya RC,

    Pam's AR states that there is dried blood on the soles of both feet. The two quickest thoughts I could give as to why a sample would have been taken from that area is that........

    1. if the perp was bleeding (and a good likelyhood due to the fight Pam apparently put up) his blood may be in areas on the floor. Good chance of a mixing of both bloods and picking up evidence. The soles/heels of the feet are one of the 'unusual places' to find evidence from an attacker and as such is an area where samples 'should' be taken from any time blood is seen there.

    2. A second answer is that it is possible that whilst leaning over or moving around Pam while she was on the floor, a drop of blood may have dripped from above onto her foot. The blood obtained from Pam standing up and even from her scooting away from Dyleski backwards, would have been a thin layer and dried pretty fast so any drips/droplet patterning would stand out on that surface.

    So there's the easy ones, lol. Hope it helped a bit

    Hugs
    Sami

  7. #7
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    Hi Sami, I have a question for you too! ;}

    The photo of the skull you showed reveals the right side of the head, as I see it. I thought these wounds were made to the left side of her head.

    Also, I see two major wounds there with cracks in the skull, however looking at the drawings of the ME there were 8 or 9 or so {I'd have to pull that up again to be exact} wounds to that left side of her head. Does that mean 2 of those many blows were hard enough to crack her bone?

    Also about it not being a weapon with a larger swing which would do too much bone damage. Would say a 12" long weapon create those blows on the back of her head and also the ones to the side of her head, and yet if swung with more force could also inflict the two cracked wounds in her skull?


    The reason I ask that is someone, I think Charlie, brought up the idea of maybe more than one weapon, and am just curious how you see it.

    As always merci beaucoup

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samiya
    Hiya RC,

    Pam's AR states that there is dried blood on the soles of both feet. The two quickest thoughts I could give as to why a sample would have been taken from that area is that........

    1. if the perp was bleeding (and a good likelyhood due to the fight Pam apparently put up) his blood may be in areas on the floor. Good chance of a mixing of both bloods and picking up evidence. The soles/heels of the feet are one of the 'unusual places' to find evidence from an attacker and as such is an area where samples 'should' be taken from any time blood is seen there.

    2. A second answer is that it is possible that whilst leaning over or moving around Pam while she was on the floor, a drop of blood may have dripped from above onto her foot. The blood obtained from Pam standing up and even from her scooting away from Dyleski backwards, would have been a thin layer and dried pretty fast so any drips/droplet patterning would stand out on that surface.

    So there's the easy ones, lol. Hope it helped a bit

    Hugs
    Sami
    That helps as I had not thought about that. I told you I back off on this kind of stuff cause it usually just makes me mad as heck to even think about. As an aside - in this case the lab ended up running YSTR DNA, because of the mixture factor. The hypothesis was that Pamela kicked him in the mouth at some point during the fight. When he arrived at home he was bleeding from the area of the mouth according to testimony from trial - so your explanation makes very good sense indeed. Thanks luv.

    So in this case, if Michelle did some kind of damage to the creep - a basic re-creation or brainstorming session of how the attack started and progressed may give them some ideas of what areas to sample that might provide the most likelyhood of capturing a sample with potential evidentiary use - right ? I sure am hoping this is the case.
    Racing Doesn't Lie

  9. #9
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    I'm not Sami lol but think that is good thinking on your part Charlie.

    I have always wondered what made LE believe that the perp had been wounded, as that ws stated in a link. We just have nothing to go on to discover what it is I guess.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by scandi
    I'm not Sami lol but think that is good thinking on your part Charlie.

    I have always wondered what made LE believe that the perp had been wounded, as that ws stated in a link. We just have nothing to go on to discover what it is I guess.
    The NTO indicates that the crime scene indicates a possible struggle between the victim and the perp which may have lead to injuries to the perp. No, we have no idea what made them think this but I also wonder about the droplets noted on the SUV. By the time the NTO was written, I think LE would have at least have done a presumptive test of those drops on the SUV. I think everyone has blown those drops off because the SUV was returned, which I do not understand - it's not like LE needs to drag the bloody bugger into the courtroom to show it off - video tape technolgy is sufficient to portray the vehicle quite nicely.
    Racing Doesn't Lie


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by scandi
    Hi Sami, I have a question for you too! ;}

    The photo of the skull you showed reveals the right side of the head, as I see it. I thought these wounds were made to the left side of her head.

    Hi Scandi,

    The photograph (link 2)that I added the fractures to shows the left side of the head from the inside of the skull......the skull is cut in half front to back.

    To match the photograph up with the AR diagrams, the green fracture is from page 12's diagram and the blue fracture is from page 13.

    The green fracture diagram was added so that people can get an idea of it's placement in regards to the base fracture when looked at from inside the skull.

    The first link shows a view of bones looking down from the top of the skull.

    The pink bone corresponds with the fractured area bone in the link 2 photograph. The green area represents the Parietal bone in link 2 and the purple area represents the Occipital bone in link 2.

    Also, I see two major wounds there with cracks in the skull, however looking at the drawings of the ME there were 8 or 9 or so {I'd have to pull that up again to be exact} wounds to that left side of her head. Does that mean 2 of those many blows were hard enough to crack her bone?

    yes....at least two BFI's minimum would have caused those fractures.

    Also about it not being a weapon with a larger swing which would do too much bone damage. Would say a 12" long weapon create those blows on the back of her head and also the ones to the side of her head, and yet if swung with more force could also inflict the two cracked wounds in her skull?

    In regards to the weapon, it is a combination of things in the use of the weapon that creates different wounds and some subsequent fractures.

    A longer handled weapon tires the assailant out faster as more energy is used to swing that weapon. It is also more unpredictable where a long handled weapon will strike, especially if the victim is moving around a bit.

    A shorter handled weapon is more controllable and able to concentrate on a particular area, even if the victim is moving a bit. Below is what I posted in ctv in regards to a claw hammer

    The most damaging surfaces of a claw hammer are the ends. The 'ball' and the 'claw'. Both these ends are smaller surfaces and when striking a surface the 'force' is concentrated in whichever end is used for striking. 'Force' in regards to a hammer also depends on how the hammer is held. The further away that the grip is from the hammer's head, the more force it will give on impact.

    The sides of the hammer as a striking area are longer, which means that the 'force' is spread out over a 'wider' area with the heaviest impact point being from where the handle is attached (centre) to the end of the 'ball', with the lightest impact point being the 'claw' end.

    Couple that with blood on the handle and it probably slipping around abit in the perps hand, there will be different areas of the hammer head that makes contact with a victim and some loss of 'force' as the perp tries to keep the slippery object in his grasp. Once he thinks he can keep a hold of it,then he will renew his attack with more force. Either way the blows would be enough to keep his victim incapacitated.



    The reason I ask that is someone, I think Charlie, brought up the idea of maybe more than one weapon, and am just curious how you see it.

    In regards to physical weapons, I do think there was only one. To me it looks like it may have been a multi edged blunt weapon or a weapon with a large circular base of up to 6 to 8 inches in diameter width. Note that an object with a circular striking area will always leave impact point injuries smaller than the full diameter but the bruising will cover a larger area.

    Line example.......

    bruising impact point bruising
    -----------------------------

    But in technical terms of weapons used against Michelle, Charlie is already correct. Two weapons were in fact used. Hands and physical object

    As always merci beaucoup
    You're welcome mon ami

    Sami

  12. #12
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    Uh ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...that is one huge flashlight

    ETA - I just checked the lamp here on my desk - it has a 6 inch base and has mutiple blunt edges - and it can't weigh more than about 5 lbs...maybe just over 2 feet tall and would be very slick and hard to hold if wet....
    Racing Doesn't Lie

  13. #13
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    Thanks again Sami for taking the time to answer those questions.

    I think I fully understand what you said as it does make sense. Now I need to go to your first link and take some time examining the multicolored skull. It was Greek to me when I first looked at it. Since you have done all of this work to show us how these injuries impacted her head, I will take advantage of that and learn all I can from you.


    Charlie, I know on CSI Miama for example, they would do a test at the scene to see if it was human blood and then with a swab take samples from both droplets and put those cotton ehnds in a little vial to transport for testing. I don't think there are any special warrants just to test whose blood it may be. Am I wrong about that?

    And about the width of that head on the flashlight. Ours at home was the big Maglitewith the longer handle, and I would think the distance across the light end would have been about 3 1/2 or 4" across. That might fit with Sami's dimensions.

    Scandi

  14. #14
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    Sami,


    Please excuse me, the "Curious George" side of me has taken over and I'm back to the sheetrock removed from the bedroom. Is it possible from blood spatter modeling to determine the likely source - such as from the victim direct, the weapon during movement, or from the perp ? If this monkey is bugging you too much just go .
    Racing Doesn't Lie

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisincharlie
    Sami,


    Please excuse me, the "Curious George" side of me has taken over and I'm back to the sheetrock removed from the bedroom. Is it possible from blood spatter modeling to determine the likely source - such as from the victim direct, the weapon during movement, or from the perp ? If this monkey is bugging you too much just go .
    lmao Curious George

    Spatter can tell which direction the blood came from. Patterns on the wall, arcing on walls up to ceiling and down a wall or objects in a room, as well as arcing across walls, can tell where the perp was not only standing but the way he was facing.

    Testing would need to be done to determine whether the blood is from the victim or an injury to the perp. Cast off blood from a weapon would be identified from certain patterns in the room.

    The sheetrock being remove tells me that there may have been some kind of print on it that needs to be....

    1 identified if possible as to whom it belonged to.
    2 subjected to DNA sampling.

    Wishful thinking on my part is that it would be similar to that of Pam's heel, where there is a mixing of blood if Michelle happened to be able to draw blood on her attacker and he touched the area with hand or fingers then put that hand on the wall or she put her hand on the wall after injuring him (blood and/or skin cells).


    Sami

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