The Red Turtleneck

tumble · Mar 2, 2007

I am wondering about why the red turtleneck sweater ended up wet and balled up on the bathroom counter.

Before going to the Whites party PR wanted JB to wear the red turtleneck. This means it would be ready to wear, i.e. NOT wet.

JB ended up wearing the white sweater with the star on it. Went to bed with it and then was found in it.

PR "mispoke" once in fornt of 3 police officers stating that JB went to bed wearing the red turtleneck. Maybe this was what actually happened?

How did the red turtleneck end up wet if it was just discarded before the Whites party and not used afterwards?

Edit: Maybe the red turtleneck never was wet at all.

UKGuy · Mar 2, 2007

tumble said:
I am wondering about why the red turtleneck sweater ended up wet and balled up on the bathroom counter.

Before going to the Whites party PR wanted JB to wear the red turtleneck. This means it would be ready to wear, i.e. NOT wet.

JB ended up wearing the white sweater with the star on it. Went to bed with it and then was found in it.

PR "mispoke" once in fornt of 3 police officers stating that JB went to bed wearing the red turtleneck. Maybe this was what actually happened?

How did the red turtleneck end up wet if it was just discarded before the Whites party and not used afterwards?

tumble,
Speculating:

I am wondering about why the red turtleneck sweater ended up wet and balled up on the bathroom counter.

Because JonBenet was wearing it when she was killed, and it was wet due an attempt at evidence removal.

Before going to the Whites party PR wanted JB to wear the red turtleneck. This means it would be ready to wear, i.e. NOT wet.

Thats only if what Patsy says is corect it may be fabricated and untruthful ?

JB ended up wearing the white sweater with the star on it. Went to bed with it and then was found in it.

Who says JonBenet went to bed never mind wearing the white gap top?

1. JonBenet never ever went to bed alive, why because she was too excited spooning pineapple downstairs.

2. So either JonBenet never removed the white gap top, and she was killed wearing it, or she was wearing something else e.g. not her barbie-gown, which was removed and replaced with her white gap top?

There are three (kiss) possibilities:
1. A staging was applied using other clothing e.g. red turtleneck, or
2. JonBenet was wearing other clothing, possibly bedtime clothing prior to being killed,
3. JonBenet was naked when she was killed?

.

tumble · Mar 2, 2007

Thanks for the answer UKGuy:

But, I am not assuming PR lied. I am trying to see if it could be she is telling the truth or not.

Maybe it is a misconseption that the turtleneck was wet?

From Steve Thomas depo,
ST = A, Q = Lin Wood
7 Q. But you had no evidence to support
8 that statement about the turtleneck being wet,
9 true?
10 A. No, I don't know that it was
11 urine stained.
12 Q. Or wet?
13 A. Or wet.

I seems that he really just assumed it was wet but didn't really know.

If it infact was not wet it could be that it just ended up discarded in the bathroom. Does anybody else have some more info abouit the turtleneck that suggest that it infact was wet when found?

JMO8778 · Mar 2, 2007

UKGuy said:
tumble,
Speculating:

Because JonBenet was wearing it when she was killed, and it was wet due an attempt at evidence removal.

Thats only if what Patsy says is corect it may be fabricated and untruthful ?

Who says JonBenet went to bed never mind wearing the white gap top?

1. JonBenet never ever went to bed alive, why because she was too excited spooning pineapple downstairs.

2. So either JonBenet never removed the white gap top, and she was killed wearing it, or she was wearing something else e.g. not her barbie-gown, which was removed and replaced with her white gap top?

There are three (kiss) possibilities:
1. A staging was applied using other clothing e.g. red turtleneck, or
2. JonBenet was wearing other clothing, possibly bedtime clothing prior to being killed,
3. JonBenet was naked when she was killed?

.

what about 2 other possiblities? :
1- JB was wearing the red turtleneck *under the white gap top the whole evening,and the white top was removed at some point bf bedtime,and the red one worn to bed,if she made it there 2- the white shirt was removed and the red shirt was put on to shorten ready time in the morning,in prep for the trip.
*If they did indeed get into an argument about which shirt to wear,perhaps JB had already agreed to wear the red shirt the next day,and it was put on her bf bed?
Since the R's seemed to be trying to account for the red shirt,was it possibly found with the collar twisted and stretched?B/c I don't think she was killed in the *white top,as Dr Spitz says she was manually strangled, with the shirt collar being twisted,and the abrasion marks were from the strangler's knuckles(so therefore,in trying to mask this..the R's wouldnt have left the stretched and twisted shirt on her) ..which,btw,discredits an intruder entirely,bc why would an intruder need to manually strangle her,to the point of even leaving abrasions(so...she was obv, concious and struggling at the time),IF it was truly a ligature strangling? It's obv. the ligature was used to cover the manual strangling.

Steve Thomas said he thought the red shirt was stripped off when it got wet..whether it was wet or not,I suspect it was stripped off *after PR manually strangled her in it..in order to apply other clothing,as leaving that shirt on her would be too obv. that it had been a manual strangling.

UKGuy · Mar 2, 2007

tumble said:
Thanks for the answer UKGuy:

But, I am not assuming PR lied. I am trying to see if it could be she is telling the truth or not.

Maybe it is a misconseption that the turtleneck was wet?

From Steve Thomas depo,
ST = A, Q = Lin Wood
7 Q. But you had no evidence to support
8 that statement about the turtleneck being wet,
9 true?
10 A. No, I don't know that it was
11 urine stained.
12 Q. Or wet?
13 A. Or wet.

I seems that he really just assumed it was wet but didn't really know.

If it infact was not wet it could be that it just ended up discarded in the bathroom. Does anybody else have some more info abouit the turtleneck that suggest that it infact was wet when found?

tumble,

Why does it matter if it was wet or not? In Steve Thomas' Toilet Rage theory he assumed JonBenet had worn the turtleneck, inferred from Patsy saying she was put to bed wearing it, then there had been a bedwetting incident, with the red turtleneck then being replaced with the white gap top?

We alread know that Steve Thomas' Toilet Rage theory is inconsistent with the current forensic evidence, when he confirms to Lin Wood that he has no forensic basis for assuming that the red turtleneck was either wet or urine-stained he further reduces the credibility of his Toilet Rage theory!

But, I am not assuming PR lied. I am trying to see if it could be she is telling the truth or not.

Read her initial statements and what is in the book DOI regarding the top, then fast forward to her revised statements e.g. polo shirt etc, and you may discover that Patsy is inconsistent with her version of events, same applies to the size-12 underwear JonBenet was discovered wearing. Patsy states they were all placed into her bathroom underwear drawer, but from the police search warrants, and her answers under interview, we know this to be incorrect.

Maybe it is a misconseption that the turtleneck was wet?

Maybe it is, wet or dry does not tell you if Patsy is being truthful, being wet fits into Steve Thomas' Toilet Rage theory, but you cannot lie-detect Patsy on the basis it was wet or dry?

tumble · Mar 2, 2007

UKGuy said:
tumble,
Why does it matter if it was wet or not?

For me this is really important to be able tu understand what happened that night.

If it were wet you have to account for how it got wet. In PR's version of events there is no explaination for how it got wet. If it were wet by urine that is another important fact to consider.

If it was not wet when found you start to wonder what ST was talking about. It would be quite easy for him to just verify that simple fact before starting to build that into his version of events. I am quite startled that he just seemed to have come up with that idea himself.

UKGuy · Mar 2, 2007

tumble said:
For me this is really important to be able tu understand what happened that night.

If it were wet you have to account for how it got wet. In PR's version of events there is no explaination for how it got wet. If it were wet by urine that is another important fact to consider.

If it was not wet when found you start to wonder what ST was talking about. It would be quite easy for him to just verify that simple fact before starting to build that into his version of events. I am quite startled that he just seemed to have come up with that idea himself.

tumble,

The red turtleneck is one of those grey areas in the case. Steve Thomas has stated he has no evidential basis for assuming the turtleneck was wet, so I assume that means it was dry?

I am quite startled that he just seemed to have come up with that idea himself.

That was possibly one of the original theories, but it is inconsistent with the available forensic evidence, as is Lou Smit's Intruder Theory, both are detectives who investigated JonBenet's death. Its likely that Steve Thomas has another personal theory as to why JonBenet was killed, and the Toilet Rage theory is simply for public consumption?

.

Nehemiah · Mar 2, 2007

from the Patsy Ramsey interrogation (excerpts) interview June 1998, as transcribed by ACR:
PR: (looking through photo album) "Looks like the little red turtleneck, little cotton red turtleneck that I wanted her to wear to the White's and she didn't want to wear."

Det. Tom Haney: "How did it end up there?"

PR: (looking through photo album): "Well," (Patsy then very quietly begins to cry)

Det. Tom Haney: "It's about 10:25; you want to take a break?"

PR: (Patsy crying..muffled) "Sorry." (Muffled)

Interrogation tape appears to break here and a new conversation starts.

We know that initially, Patsy told the officers that JB went to bed in the red turtleneck; she later changed that story to say that she was put to bed in the white star Gap shirt. We don't know what the pictures show from the White's Christmas party as they have never been publicly released (although someone posted one time that ST stated in a chat that the pictures showed the white Gap shirt). The red turtleneck was found balled up on the bathroom counter, but I'm not sure who actually said it was wet. Patsy says that she removed JB's black velvet jeans and put on the white longjohns that she herself got out of a drawer for her. All the while JB is said to be sleeping.

I am fascinated with the red turtleneck. I don't think that Patsy got it wrong when she initially reported that JB went to bed wearing that. And here we have Patsy getting upset when she sees the red turtleneck....so upset that Det. Haney obviously feels empathy and takes a break. Why didn't he press her on this? I feel that an opportunity was missed.

Credence · Mar 2, 2007

tumble said:
For me this is really important to be able tu understand what happened that night.

If it were wet you have to account for how it got wet. In PR's version of events there is no explaination for how it got wet. If it were wet by urine that is another important fact to consider.

If it was not wet when found you start to wonder what ST was talking about. It would be quite easy for him to just verify that simple fact before starting to build that into his version of events. I am quite startled that he just seemed to have come up with that idea himself.

This is just one of the facts that Steve Thomas claims is true and it turns out it's not. There are many more "ideas" he came up with including the rage theory over bedwetting. I do believe he wanted justice for JonBenet his ego just got in the way.

JMO8778 · Mar 3, 2007

We know that initially, Patsy told the officers that JB went to bed in the red turtleneck; she later changed that story to say that she was put to bed in the white star Gap shirt.

..not only that,but at first she was vague,even to the point of omitting the color and exact style of the shirt,stating only that it was a 'polo-type shirt'..which left the door open to more than one kind or color.

I am fascinated with the red turtleneck. I don't think that Patsy got it wrong when she initially reported that JB went to bed wearing that. And here we have Patsy getting upset when she sees the red turtleneck....so upset that Det. Haney obviously feels empathy and takes a break. Why didn't he press her on this? I feel that an opportunity was missed.

I so totally agree...it was a point where she was vulnerable and she should have been pushed further on it.I wonder if he felt pressure that her legal rep. would have stopped him if he'd tried?

JMO8778 · Mar 3, 2007

Credence said:
This is just one of the facts that Steve Thomas claims is true and it turns out it's not.

I don't think he made any definite claim on it..he said he thought it was stripped off when it got wet..not that it definitely was wet.
He also said he came to beleive JB was put to bed in it,as PR originally stated,although some ppl will say he said she 'was definitely put to bed in it'. Not so.

Nehemiah · Mar 3, 2007

I have always wondered if that red turtleneck were worn under the soiled jumpsuit that Patsy was cleaning around on? That perhaps JB had on the turtleneck and that jumpsuit, but for some reason Patsy was compelled to fuss around with it.

Something else...JBR was wearing the very large panties when she was found. Jayelles recreated this scene and we can see just how large they truly were on her little body. Patsy says she removed JB's pants and put the longjohns on her. I am wondering how she took off those pants w/out those large panties coming down and if she didn't wonder why JB was wearing those panties?

UKGuy · Mar 3, 2007

Nehemiah said:
I have always wondered if that red turtleneck were worn under the soiled jumpsuit that Patsy was cleaning around on? That perhaps JB had on the turtleneck and that jumpsuit, but for some reason Patsy was compelled to fuss around with it.

Something else...JBR was wearing the very large panties when she was found. Jayelles recreated this scene and we can see just how large they truly were on her little body. Patsy says she removed JB's pants and put the longjohns on her. I am wondering how she took off those pants w/out those large panties coming down and if she didn't wonder why JB was wearing those panties?

Nehemiah,

Common sense suggests she was not wearing them, thats why they never came down?

I dont disagree with your speculation, personally I suspect prior staging and the redressing of JonBenet, somewhere I think the turtleneck factors in but due to a good cleanup job its difficult to decide just where?

.

JMO8778 · Mar 3, 2007

Nehemiah said:
I have always wondered if that red turtleneck were worn under the soiled jumpsuit that Patsy was cleaning around on? That perhaps JB had on the turtleneck and that jumpsuit, but for some reason Patsy was compelled to fuss around with it

or maybe she was even killed in it,wearing the red shirt underneath?rem. the coroner said one of the abrasions looked like a snap mark.did it come from the jumpsuit perhaps?

Something else...JBR was wearing the very large panties when she was found. Jayelles recreated this scene and we can see just how large they truly were on her little body. Patsy says she removed JB's pants and put the longjohns on her. I am wondering how she took off those pants w/out those large panties coming down and if she didn't wonder why JB was wearing those panties?

b/c she wasn't wearing them then,IMO.totally used for staging.

BBB167893 · Mar 3, 2007

I do believe he wanted justice for JonBenet his ego just got in the way.

It was their money that got in the way.

Credence · Mar 5, 2007

JMO8778 said:
I don't think he made any definite claim on it..he said he thought it was stripped off when it got wet..not that it definitely was wet.
He also said he came to beleive JB was put to bed in it,as PR originally stated,although some ppl will say he said she 'was definitely put to bed in it'. Not so.

The red clothing that was in the sink was a jumpsuit not a turtleneck.

JMO8778 · Mar 6, 2007

Credence said:
The red clothing that was in the sink was a jumpsuit not a turtleneck.

PR came up with different versions,but she said the jumpsuit itself was outside the room,near the washer and dryer,and she originally said that she fooled with getting a stain out of it on the way down the stairs that morning.

It is my understanding from reading,that the turtleneck itself was balled up on the counter near the sink in JB's bathroom.(which was inside her room).

Solace · Mar 6, 2007

JMO8778 said:
PR came up with different versions,but she said the jumpsuit itself was outside the room,near the washer and dryer,and she originally said that she fooled with getting a stain out of it on the way down the stairs that morning.

It is my understanding from reading,that the turtleneck itself was balled up on the counter near the sink in JB's bathroom.(which was inside her room).

That is my understanding too.

A lot has been said about this turtleneck and whether she had worn it that evening at the White's. But I have read several accounts, books, etc. that Jon Benet wore that white top with the sparkles on it to the Whites, she was found in it also. I know that Patsy said she had the red turtleneck on that night to one of the police and that Thomas says that in his book. But there is no evidence that she wore the turtleneck that night. So what do you all think.

Also, I read that Susan Stine said she saw JonBenet asleep in the back of the Ramseys car. I also read that Berke said Jon Benet helped Patsy bring presents into one of the houses on the way home. Can anyone help with these inaccuracies.

Nuisanceposter · Mar 6, 2007

I don't know about Susan Stine seeing JonBenet asleep. Burke said JB was asleep part of the way home, but woke up they stopped at one of their stops and helped carry presents. IIRC, the two stops they made were to the Stine's and the Walker's houses. If they stopped by the Stines first, then JB could have been asleep and awakened when they stopped at the Walkers, and carried gifts then. I do think she was awake when they arrived home that night. Burke had plenty of detail about her walking up the steps ahead of Patsy, and JR originally told LE that he read the kids a story (meaning JonBenet was awake to hear it.) We know she had to have been awake to eat the pineapple.

JMO8778 · Mar 6, 2007

Solace said:
That is my understanding too.

A lot has been said about this turtleneck and whether she had worn it that evening at the White's. But I have read several accounts, books, etc. that Jon Benet wore that white top with the sparkles on it to the Whites, she was found in it also. I know that Patsy said she had the red turtleneck on that night to one of the police and that Thomas says that in his book. But there is no evidence that she wore the turtleneck that night. So what do you all think.

I wonder if she wore the red shirt under the white one...or,it could have been put on her b/f bed in order to help shorten ready time the next morning.

Also, I read that Susan Stine said she saw JonBenet asleep in the back of the Ramseys car. I also read that Berke said Jon Benet helped Patsy bring presents into one of the houses on the way home. Can anyone help with these inaccuracies.

I beleive BR was being honest;I don't know what to think about SS though..she seems pretty flaky,so who knows.She could have just been saying it in the R's defense.

The Red Turtleneck

New Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

..at the beach!

Well-Known Member

New Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Member

..at the beach!

..at the beach!

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

..at the beach!

Former Member

Member

..at the beach!

New Member

Remembering Little Miss Christmas

..at the beach!

DNASolves

Online statistics

Forum statistics