Is the molester also the killer?

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Toltec

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As you all know by now, my belief is that Patsy killed JonBenet but the molestation of JonBenet Ramsey has me stumped. Several people have asked me who I think molested JonBenet and I've said I did not know...but that it was one of the Ramseys.

Let's start with the month of December when Linda Hoffman Pugh stated that JB started wetting the bed all over again.

JonBenet went to see the school nurse on a couple of Mondays in December.

Something happened to JB on the 23d of December.

JonBenet was molested the night she died

Does anyone have a theory on who was molesting JonBenet...I sure want to know.
 
Toltec said:
As you all know by now, my belief is that Patsy killed JonBenet but the molestation of JonBenet Ramsey has me stumped. Several people have asked me who I think molested JonBenet and I've said I did not know...but that it was one of the Ramseys.

Let's start with the month of December when Linda Hoffman Pugh stated that JB started wetting the bed all over again.

JonBenet went to see the school nurse on a couple of Mondays in December.

Something happened to JB on the 23d of December.

JonBenet was molested the night she died

Does anyone have a theory on who was molesting JonBenet...I sure want to know.
Click to expand...
The crucial question is: was JonBenet actually molested the night she died or was the acute vaginal injury inflicted for staging purposes?
 
Toltec said:
As you all know by now, my belief is that Patsy killed JonBenet but the molestation of JonBenet Ramsey has me stumped. Several people have asked me who I think molested JonBenet and I've said I did not know...but that it was one of the Ramseys.

Let's start with the month of December when Linda Hoffman Pugh stated that JB started wetting the bed all over again.

JonBenet went to see the school nurse on a couple of Mondays in December.

Something happened to JB on the 23d of December.

JonBenet was molested the night she died

Does anyone have a theory on who was molesting JonBenet...I sure want to know.
Click to expand...


If it wasn't JR,then I wonder if it was PR's father.It was said he babysat the kids,and PR's mom lived in Atlanta..not with him.He was also at the party that night,but went to atlanta on a standby flight on xmas eve.
I wonder if he sat w JB and BR while JR and PR were out on those weekends b/f JB saw the school nurse.
 
rashomon said:
The crucial question is: was JonBenet actually molested the night she died or was the acute vaginal injury inflicted for staging purposes?
Click to expand...

rashomon,

How about two sexual assaults and yes to both of your questions.

That is in the days leading up to her death JonBenet was being sexually molested on a regular basis, her severely eroded hymen and prior vaiginal scarring support this.

On the night of her death she was subject to a sexual assault which was followed by a manual strangulation, which may have been a consequence of keeping JonBenet quiet during the assault?

As you suggest there may have been a further sexual assault undertaken during a staging to fake an abduction motive and/or mask the prior sexual assault.

Two points Coroner Meyer mentions a digital penetration and sexual activity which are imo neutral euphemisms for different kinds of sexual molestation.

The above points will be reinforced if it is shown she was assaulted with the missing paintbrush handle, and the staging aspect demonstrated if the missing piece of the paintbrush was left inside JonBenet?

As I've mentioned before why leave the other two pieces but remove the third, one was actually placed back into the paint-tote!


.
 
JMO8778 said:
If it wasn't JR,then I wonder if it was PR's father.It was said he babysat the kids,and PR's mom lived in Atlanta..not with him.He was also at the party that night,but went to atlanta on a standby flight on xmas eve.
I wonder if he sat w JB and BR while JR and PR were out on those weekends b/f JB saw the school nurse.
Click to expand...

JMO8778,

It may have been all of them, at different points in time?
 
Toltec said:
As you all know by now, my belief is that Patsy killed JonBenet but the molestation of JonBenet Ramsey has me stumped. Several people have asked me who I think molested JonBenet and I've said I did not know...but that it was one of the Ramseys.

Let's start with the month of December when Linda Hoffman Pugh stated that JB started wetting the bed all over again.

JonBenet went to see the school nurse on a couple of Mondays in December.

Something happened to JB on the 23d of December.

JonBenet was molested the night she died

Does anyone have a theory on who was molesting JonBenet...I sure want to know.
Click to expand...

Toltec,

Any of the males she came in close contact with, then her mother. Or it may be all of these at different points because the family was dysfunctional.

e.g. persons known to us with access to Jonbenet exploiting the circumstances i.e. JonBenet requesting to be wiped down?

That is it may be a mistake to think only one person molested Jonbenet!


.
 
UKGuy said:
The above points will be reinforced if it is shown she was assaulted with the missing paintbrush handle, and the staging aspect demonstrated if the missing piece of the paintbrush was left inside JonBenet?

As I've mentioned before why leave the other two pieces but remove the third, one was actually placed back into the paint-tote!


.
Click to expand...

but then the fake sexual assault to cover prior abuse would be rendered useless if it was left there.I think it was taken,along with the size 6 underwear,else why would there be speculation over whether or not the paintbrush caused the injury?
 
UKGuy said:
That is it may be a mistake to think only one person molested Jonbenet!


.
Click to expand...

I completely agree. I'm not certain that molester had to be the killer, though. I suspect both J&P were involved in the staging and subsequent ongoing cover up, and I suspect it's because they both had something to hide.

I also wonder about DP, and his being around JonBenet at the same time LHP said she regressed in toileting (around Thanksgiving) and his leaving at Christmas.

I also wonder if Patsy didn't know JB was being molested and denied it or something, perhaps having been molested herself. I think Patsy had to have known something bad was happening to JonBenet, with all of the doctor visits and school nurse visits and the three phone calls in one day that she can't recall the reason for. I'm not so sure Patsy wasn't the source.

I pretty much dismiss "curiosity play" between Burke and JonBenet, as usually children don't play like that hard enough to hurt or cause damage. It's more like "show and touch", not "penetrate and alter the geography with injury".
 
Nuisanceposter said:
I completely agree. I'm not certain that molester had to be the killer, though. I suspect both J&P were involved in the staging and subsequent ongoing cover up, and I suspect it's because they both had something to hide.

I also wonder about DP, and his being around JonBenet at the same time LHP said she regressed in toileting (around Thanksgiving) and his leaving at Christmas.

I also wonder if Patsy didn't know JB was being molested and denied it or something, perhaps having been molested herself. I think Patsy had to have known something bad was happening to JonBenet, with all of the doctor visits and school nurse visits and the three phone calls in one day that she can't recall the reason for. I'm not so sure Patsy wasn't the source.

I pretty much dismiss "curiosity play" between Burke and JonBenet, as usually children don't play like that hard enough to hurt or cause damage. It's more like "show and touch", not "penetrate and alter the geography with injury".
Click to expand...


You make a good point in that children do play doctor but not to a point where it causes injury.

I seriously doubt Patsy would molest her daughter.

So that leaves John Ramsey as the possible molester....but then again, why leave injuries to his daughter that his wife would obviously notice?

I doubt Fleet White would hurt his little daughters best friend...and Burke's friends??? Who knows.

I was leaning towards Grandpa Paugh...the only problem with that is that JonBenet suffered ACUTE vaginal penetration...and we all know Grandpa Paugh left Boulder Dec 24.

Could it be possible that the acute injuries could be as old as 24 hours? What if Grandpa Paugh molested her on the 24th...got caught by the Ramseys...and given the boot??? Is that why we never heard one statement from GPP after JonBenet's death???
 
JMO8778 said:
but then the fake sexual assault to cover prior abuse would be rendered useless if it was left there.I think it was taken,along with the size 6 underwear,else why would there be speculation over whether or not the paintbrush caused the injury?
Click to expand...


JMO8778,

but then the fake sexual assault to cover prior abuse would be rendered useless if it was left there.
Click to expand...
No, because the damage has been done, she was violated, dont forget the missing piece may have been left inside JonBenet, this is why its removal is so curious.

That is whether it is known how JonBenet was sexually asssaulted either digitally or by some other object, does not detract from the effect of compromising the forensic evidence, since you cannot prove ante-mortem which was fake or real.

I think it was taken,along with the size 6 underwear,else why would there be speculation over whether or not the paintbrush caused the injury?
Click to expand...
The speculation is ours, the BPD may have access to sealed information, bear in mind birefringent material was discovered inside JonBenet, if the missing piece was indeed left inside Jonbenet in an attempt to further dramatise the staging, then its consistent with the application of the garrote, and also this may have been redacted from the autopsy report?



.
 
UKGuy said:
JMO8778,


No, because the damage has been done, she was violated, dont forget the missing piece may have been left inside JonBenet, this is why its removal is so curious.


The speculation is ours, the BPD may have access to sealed information, bear in mind birefringent material was discovered inside JonBenet, if the missing piece was indeed left inside Jonbenet in an attempt to further dramatise the staging, then its consistent with the application of the garrote, and also this may have been redacted from the autopsy report?



.
Click to expand...

The following is from The Bonita Papers:

"CELLULOSE PARTICLE IN VAGINA possibly from paint brush handle"

Just fyi
 
Solace said:
The following is from The Bonita Papers:

"CELLULOSE PARTICLE IN VAGINA possibly from paint brush handle"

Just fyi
Click to expand...

Solace,

Thank you, the technical term for this is birefringment material, e.g. the material can be identified either by its refractive index, or it polarising properties, wrt light or laser.


.
 
Nuisanceposter said:
I completely agree. I'm not certain that molester had to be the killer, though. I suspect both J&P were involved in the staging and subsequent ongoing cover up, and I suspect it's because they both had something to hide.

I also wonder about DP, and his being around JonBenet at the same time LHP said she regressed in toileting (around Thanksgiving) and his leaving at Christmas.

I also wonder if Patsy didn't know JB was being molested and denied it or something, perhaps having been molested herself. I think Patsy had to have known something bad was happening to JonBenet, with all of the doctor visits and school nurse visits and the three phone calls in one day that she can't recall the reason for. I'm not so sure Patsy wasn't the source.

I pretty much dismiss "curiosity play" between Burke and JonBenet, as usually children don't play like that hard enough to hurt or cause damage. It's more like "show and touch", not "penetrate and alter the geography with injury".
Click to expand...

Nuisanceposter,

I agree and DP was prominent prior to xmas, assisting JonBenet, I reckon Burke and JonBenet indulged in normal curiosity play or doctors etc, his prepubescence would have have been a factor in this not progressing too far.

A variant of my standard theory has JonBenet killed e.g. silenced precisely because so many adults were molesting her. I reckon in her extended family there was a pedophile who when given access groomed and molested JonBenet, it may have been this person she was going to go public about, but this would have shone a light on others who were abusing JonBenet?


.
 
UKGuy said:
Nuisanceposter,

I agree and DP was prominent prior to xmas, assisting JonBenet, I reckon Burke and JonBenet indulged in normal curiosity play or doctors etc, his prepubescence would have have been a factor in this not progressing too far.

A variant of my standard theory has JonBenet killed e.g. silenced precisely because so many adults were molesting her. I reckon in her extended family there was a pedophile who when given access groomed and molested JonBenet, it may have been this person she was going to go public about, but this would have shone a light on others who were abusing JonBenet?


.
Click to expand...

UK,

With all due respect, never happened. So many adults were molesting her? This sort of a statement borders on hysteria, and frankly UK is more than likely going to be dismissed by many as just that. Just my opinion.
 
Solace said:
UK,

With all due respect, never happened. So many adults were molesting her? This sort of a statement borders on hysteria, and frankly UK is more than likely going to be dismissed by many as just that. Just my opinion.
Click to expand...

Solace,
Really, and you were present?

This sort of a statement borders on hysteria,
Click to expand...
I refer to the list of suspects, and JonBenet's prior chronic sexual molestation.

The possibility of litigation precludes a fuller discussion, but those who have studied the case will know to whom I am referring.


.
 
UKGuy said:
Solace,
Really, and you were present?


I refer to the list of suspects, and JonBenet's prior chronic sexual molestation.

The possibility of litigation precludes a fuller discussion, but those who have studied the case will know to whom I am referring.


.
Click to expand...

If the child were being molested by a number of adults, we would have seen some record of bizarre and I mean bizarre behaviour by her. She kicked her mother at a pageant, she would walk through the raked up leaves, she would walk through Burke's toys. There is no record of her running up and down the halls at school; there is no record of showing any overtly sexual behaviour except for the fact that she would on occasion as someone to "wipe her", behaviour that children will do at times. There is no record of her having any "ticks". There is no record of observances by anyone after ten years that Jon Benet exhibited any bizarre behaviour other than the pageants. The speculation that she was molested by a number of adults, in my opinion, lends itself to hysteria.

And also the fact that you say the possibility of litigation limits further discussion speaks volumes. UK, you do not have anything to back this up. It is simply tiresome hearing these alarmist explanations for theories that have no basis in fact. IMO
 
i must admit, the hinting in this topic that there may be more than we know about this case has always been a question of mine. Is it possible that there are significant details of this case not known to the public? Linda Arndt once mentioned that the facts of this case were misunderstood in the public. In addition, the arguement that JMK knew things only the perp would know makes me wonder. Sorry to go off topic, but this has been bugging me for a while.
 
Solace said:
If the child were being molested by a number of adults, we would have seen some record of bizarre and I mean bizarre behaviour by her. She kicked her mother at a pageant, she would walk through the raked up leaves, she would walk through Burke's toys. There is no record of her running up and down the halls at school; there is no record of showing any overtly sexual behaviour except for the fact that she would on occasion as someone to "wipe her", behaviour that children will do at times. There is no record of her having any "ticks". There is no record of observances by anyone after ten years that Jon Benet exhibited any bizarre behaviour other than the pageants. The speculation that she was molested by a number of adults, in my opinion, lends itself to hysteria.

And also the fact that you say the possibility of litigation limits further discussion speaks volumes. UK, you do not have anything to back this up. It is simply tiresome hearing these alarmist explanations for theories that have no basis in fact. IMO
Click to expand...

Solace,

There is no rule of membership that requires you to read everything I post, far less comment upon it.


.
 
Jay78 said:
i must admit, the hinting in this topic that there may be more than we know about this case has always been a question of mine. Is it possible that there are significant details of this case not known to the public? Linda Arndt once mentioned that the facts of this case were misunderstood in the public. In addition, the arguement that JMK knew things only the perp would know makes me wonder. Sorry to go off topic, but this has been bugging me for a while.
Click to expand...

Jay78,

Yes there is evidence available that has not been made public, most likely so it can be produced at any trial.

JonBenet's soiled underwear drawer is but one recent example, yet another person linked to the investigation hinting sexual abuse may have played a part.

A piece of the paintbrush is still missing with no real reason for this since the other two pieces were available at the crime-scene.

No list of JonBenet's underwear itemised by size or day of the week has ever been released, so must be significant

And of course the Ramsey residences were searched for child *advertiser censored* with one of those searches and its results being redacted!


.
 
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