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  1. #1
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    Deception

    There are various methods of detecting deception and this is something that interests me. I've got some stuff I'd like to post here, but but before I do so, I came across this:-

    http://www.lyintamer.com/business/pl...t_business.htm

    and thought wow! This was posted the day after Karr's arrest.
    This is only my opinion

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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayelles View Post
    There are various methods of detecting deception and this is something that interests me. I've got some stuff I'd like to post here, but but before I do so, I came across this:-

    http://www.lyintamer.com/business/pl...t_business.htm

    and thought wow! This was posted the day after Karr's arrest.
    I wonder if John Ramsey's constant smirk, and licking of the lips, means anything? Of course, I don't need a link for me to know that HE is a liar. And what about the shaking of the head up and down (yes), when asked if he killed his daughter? When he meant to shake it from side to side (no)... That sure seems like a deception sign to me. Do you know of a website where the Ramsey's body language is analyzed???
    "This time we get it right."

  3. #3
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    There is this analysis of John Ramsey:-

    http://www.eyesforlies.blogspot.com/...interview.html

    But it falls down on the very first point because Patsy didn't say "Sir.." in the 911 call! There's nothing worse for me than someone going off on a rant without checking their basic facts first!
    This is only my opinion

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  4. #4
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    A copied post of mine

    5/6 years ago I made some posts about "the lying face". I'd watched a documentary about a method of lie detection which involved studying micro-movements of certain facial muscles around the eyebrows and mouth. These are so fleeting that they are practically imperceptible in real time and so the interrogators must record them and play them back a frame at a time. The psychologist who did this research was called Paul Ekman and he called them micro-expressions. It was fascinating because they showed clips of people being interviewed and there was nothing obvious about their expressions, yet when the video was replayed in slow motion - there were the micro-expressions - a completely different expression so fleeting that you'd miss it in a blink and yet it was there.


    But our faces are also governed by a separate, involuntary system. We know this because stroke victims who suffer damage to what is known as the pyramidal neural system will laugh at a joke, but they cannot smile if you ask them to.
    In the programme, they put the method to the test on the programme and got the psychologists to find out which of three people had taken money. However, the test was set up to trip the psychologist up because two people were lying and not one as was expected.

    My memory is a bit hazy on the details of the interviews, but the guinea pigs didn't fool the test - the psychologist accurately reported that it seemed that two of the interviewees were being deceptive.


    "You must have had the experience where somebody comments on your expression and you didn't know you were making it,"Ekman says. "Somebody tells you, "What are you getting upset about?' "Why are you smirking?' You can hear your voice, but you can't see your face. If we knew what was on our face, we would be better at concealing it...
    More...


    Ekman slipped a tape taken from the O.J. Simpson trial into the VCR. It was of Kato Kaelin, Simpson's shaggy-haired house guest, being examined by Marcia Clark, one of the prosecutors in the case. Kaelin sits in the witness box, with his trademark vacant look. Clark asks a hostile question. Kaelin leans forward and answers softly. "Did you see that?" Ekman asked me. I saw nothing, just Kato being Kato-- harmless and passive. Ekman stopped the tape, rewound it, and played it back in slow motion. On the screen, Kaelin moved forward to answer the question, and in that fraction of a second his face was utterly transformed. His nose wrinkled, as he flexed his levator labii superioris, alaeque nasi. His teeth were bared, his brows lowered. "It was almost totally A.U. nine," Ekman said. "It's disgust, with anger there as well, and the clue to that is that when your eyebrows go down, typically your eyes are not as open as they are here. The raised upper eyelid is a component of anger, not disgust. It's very quick." Ekman stopped the tape and played it again, peering at the screen. "You know, he looks like a snarling dog."
    http://www.gladwell.com/2002/2002_08_05_a_face.htm

    Here's another website and if you follow the BBC link on it, you can take an online test to see how good you are at spotting fake smiles. I surprised myself and scored 16/20.

    http://www.lifetrainingonline.com/bl...etect-lies.htm
    This is only my opinion

    Let the focus be on Madeleine




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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayelles View Post
    There is this analysis of John Ramsey:-

    http://www.eyesforlies.blogspot.com/...interview.html

    But it falls down on the very first point because Patsy didn't say "Sir.." in the 911 call! There's nothing worse for me than someone going off on a rant without checking their basic facts first!
    Yeah, they made a mistake with the "Sir". But the rest of it is right on...

    From the link that you posted:


    1. Throughout the interview with John Ramsey, he keeps smiling. It wasn't a genuine, I'm- happy-smile. It wasn't a nervous smile. It was a strange, deceptive smile. It was inappropriate in timing -- almost as if the smile is expressing his true feelings -- that he is so happy 48 Hours is doing this show because they are pointing the finger away from him. It's like he is so thrilled with it, he can't contain it. I find John Ramsey making this smile throughout the majority of his interview. It bothers me more than a little. There is no logical explanation for it.

      An innocent man would not be joyous thinking about finding the killer of their daughter. He would more than likely be mad at the whole scenario, tired of being treated so badly by the media that there would be hints of anger - a truly felt emotion -- that would not flee in time upon reflection. There would be a desire to get resolve -- to find the true killer - because it would be haunting to know that killer is still out there potentially killing other children. None of these emotions would make a true victim of such a heinous crime smile. So, when I don't see any normal expressions -- and I see expressions that are out of place -- I'm on alert.
    This is the way that I feel about it too. A deceptive smile...
    "This time we get it right."

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ames View Post
    Yeah, they made a mistake with the "Sir". But the rest of it is right on...

    From the link that you posted:

    1. Throughout the interview with John Ramsey, he keeps smiling. It wasn't a genuine, I'm- happy-smile. It wasn't a nervous smile. It was a strange, deceptive smile. It was inappropriate in timing -- almost as if the smile is expressing his true feelings -- that he is so happy 48 Hours is doing this show because they are pointing the finger away from him. It's like he is so thrilled with it, he can't contain it. I find John Ramsey making this smile throughout the majority of his interview. It bothers me more than a little. There is no logical explanation for it.

      An innocent man would not be joyous thinking about finding the killer of their daughter. He would more than likely be mad at the whole scenario, tired of being treated so badly by the media that there would be hints of anger - a truly felt emotion -- that would not flee in time upon reflection. There would be a desire to get resolve -- to find the true killer - because it would be haunting to know that killer is still out there potentially killing other children. None of these emotions would make a true victim of such a heinous crime smile. So, when I don't see any normal expressions -- and I see expressions that are out of place -- I'm on alert.
    This is the way that I feel about it too. A deceptive smile...
    it's the same way on the youtube video he and Patsy are on..his smile is a 'we got away with it...don't worry' kind of smile.
    something to ponder:

    When the corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and the mortal have put on immortality, then shall we be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?

    The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
    But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    1 Corinthians 15:54-57

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMO8778 View Post
    it's the same way on the youtube video he and Patsy are on..his smile is a 'we got away with it...don't worry' kind of smile.
    Are you talking about the video of him smiling, while Patsy is crying on his shoulder? He says a few words to her...I expect that they are..."Patsy, honey..why are you crying? You should be happy like I am, that we got away with it". But, its a tribute video, and there is music in the background, so you can't hear what he is saying. But, that would be MY guess.
    "This time we get it right."

  8. #8
    If you want to study body language and eye movements in liars...children make great subjects.

    When I catch my nephew in a lie, his eyes go up, down, side to side. He looks away or stares down at his feet. It's too funny at times and I have to turn away or stifle a laugh.
    ...We have said to ourselves, look, there is never going to be a victory in this, there is no victory...John Ramsey: 6/24/98

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ames View Post
    Are you talking about the video of him smiling, while Patsy is crying on his shoulder? He says a few words to her...I expect that they are..."Patsy, honey..why are you crying? You should be happy like I am, that we got away with it". But, its a tribute video, and there is music in the background, so you can't hear what he is saying. But, that would be MY guess.
    yes,that's the one.he looks like a sneaky lil devil in it,imo.
    something to ponder:

    When the corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and the mortal have put on immortality, then shall we be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?

    The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
    But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    1 Corinthians 15:54-57

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toltec View Post
    If you want to study body language and eye movements in liars...children make great subjects.

    When I catch my nephew in a lie, his eyes go up, down, side to side. He looks away or stares down at his feet. It's too funny at times and I have to turn away or stifle a laugh.
    I was really interested in one article which I read. I differentiated between straight recall of facts and the cognitive process which would be involved if you had to work something out (we call these Knowledge and Understanding v Problem Solving in Scotland). The eyes move to different places when the two different processes are used.

    We tried it out on Tootsie at the weekend. Ask her a sum and the eyes roll upwards, ask her what she had for lunch and the eyes roll upwards - this is what she does when she's remembering a fact. But when we gave her a riddle-me-re, her eyes moved to the right. It worked every time. My Hubby is a bit of a sceptic when it comes to psychology but he was suitably impressed with this.

    Well, apparently, if a person is lying, they must apply the second process. So, first of all, it's essential to establish a person's "baseline" behaviour - Tootsie will roll her eyes up if she's going to tell the truth and she'll look to the right if she's working something out - inclusing a lie (sussed!). Therefore, interrogators who are trained in reading body language will start off by asking certain questions to establish a person's baseline.

    What about the Ramsey interviews?

    JR 1997
    The detectives started off asking him to describe events from the time when they left the Whites

    PR 1997
    Lots of short response, factual questions about which school she went to and what was the name of the last book she read.

    JR 1998
    Interview starts with Lou Smit discussing the police position with regard to the investigation (Smit is supportive of the police). LS asks John about their non-co-operation. It's more of a discussion. Smit points out why they have to clear the Ramseys (because if they ever arrest an intruder, the intruder's defence will be that the Ramseys did it).

    PR 1998
    Tom Haney asks PR about medication and then asks Patsy to start off my telling him whatever she can about Jonbenet's death.

    JR 2000
    M Kane starts off by asking John Ramsey how active he's been in the investigation since the last interview.

    PR 2000
    Kane started off by asking Patsy about the Ramsey's own investigation of the murder. It would be pretty difficult to analyse this interview of Patsy's because Lin Wood interrupts so frequently that the "train" of the interview is buried under a mountain of Lin Wood's objections/points of information and comments.

    In Summary - the only interview which *could* be applying body language analysis is Patsy's 1997 interview.

    NOTE: In many of the above interviews, the investigators point out to the Ramseys that any intruder's defence is going to be that the parents did it and that this is why it is crucial for the police to throoughly investigate the Ramseys and to have the answers to many questions on record so that they can be prepared to interrogate any intruder. Although they claim to understand this, Lin Wood counters it by saying that his clients will be prepared to answer any questions IF and WHEN an intruder is arrested. How can this be a desire to aid the investigation whilst memories are fresh? This is precisely why the Ramseys are viewed in such a negative light by so many people.

    Thankfully, this wouldn't happen in the UK where police have the autonomy to charge someone with obstruction of justice if they refuse to be interviewed by police.
    This is only my opinion

    Let the focus be on Madeleine




    Together we can make a difference





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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMO8778 View Post
    yes,that's the one.he looks like a sneaky lil devil in it,imo.
    I agree. Some of the posters that posted messages on youtube, thought so too. Did you read some of the comments? I would like to knock that stupid grin off of his face. And there is thread on FFJ that is dedicated to him sticking out his tongue a million times, during a televised interview. They call him "lizard lips" over there (FFJ).
    "This time we get it right."

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayelles View Post
    I was really interested in one article which I read. I differentiated between straight recall of facts and the cognitive process which would be involved if you had to work something out (we call these Knowledge and Understanding v Problem Solving in Scotland). The eyes move to different places when the two different processes are used.

    We tried it out on Tootsie at the weekend. Ask her a sum and the eyes roll upwards, ask her what she had for lunch and the eyes roll upwards - this is what she does when she's remembering a fact. But when we gave her a riddle-me-re, her eyes moved to the right. It worked every time. My Hubby is a bit of a sceptic when it comes to psychology but he was suitably impressed with this.

    Well, apparently, if a person is lying, they must apply the second process. So, first of all, it's essential to establish a person's "baseline" behaviour - Tootsie will roll her eyes up if she's going to tell the truth and she'll look to the right if she's working something out - inclusing a lie (sussed!). Therefore, interrogators who are trained in reading body language will start off by asking certain questions to establish a person's baseline.

    What about the Ramsey interviews?

    JR 1997
    The detectives started off asking him to describe events from the time when they left the Whites

    PR 1997
    Lots of short response, factual questions about which school she went to and what was the name of the last book she read.

    JR 1998
    Interview starts with Lou Smit discussing the police position with regard to the investigation (Smit is supportive of the police). LS asks John about their non-co-operation. It's more of a discussion. Smit points out why they have to clear the Ramseys (because if they ever arrest an intruder, the intruder's defence will be that the Ramseys did it).

    <SNIPPED>
    Yeah, like THAT'S ever going to happen. In ten a half years, they haven't arrested an intruder, because an intruder did not do it. IMO
    "This time we get it right."

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ames View Post
    I agree. Some of the posters that posted messages on youtube, thought so too. Did you read some of the comments? I would like to knock that stupid grin off of his face. And there is thread on FFJ that is dedicated to him sticking out his tongue a million times, during a televised interview. They call him "lizard lips" over there (FFJ).
    rofl,yes,and did you notice that no one's ever favorited their interviews and such?I think that says a lot about public opinion of them.I left some lovely(not) reviews myself,altho I don't think on that particular one.
    have you ever seen some of the reviews of DOI?it's pretty much the same way.I can't believe they wrote that nonsense and then expected the public to just swallow it whole.JR practically calls Melinda's finance a liar(IMO) when he describes going over to them and telling them JB was found dead.
    something to ponder:

    When the corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and the mortal have put on immortality, then shall we be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?

    The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
    But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    1 Corinthians 15:54-57

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMO8778 View Post
    rofl,yes,and did you notice that no one's ever favorited their interviews and such?I think that says a lot about public opinion of them.I left some lovely(not) reviews myself,altho I don't think on that particular one.
    have you ever seen some of the reviews of DOI?it's pretty much the same way.I can't believe they wrote that nonsense and then expected the public to just swallow it whole.JR practically calls Melinda's finance a liar(IMO) when he describes going over to them and telling them JB was found dead.
    LOL, I will have to go onto youtube and read your "lovely" Ramsey reviews. I believe that the majority of the public, believe that the Ramsey's killed their daughter. I know that some people say..."OH NO...the Ramsey's would NEVER kill their own chld...thats just impossible". Well, lets take a look at the Preacher's wife...I believe that her name is Mary. I cannot remember where it happened, but her trial just started. The meek and mild mannered wife of a pastor, shot and killed HIM. Nobody would have EVER THOUGHT that she would have done such a thing. Its an evil world that we live in, people kill their children and/or their spouses EVERY SINGLE DAY.
    "This time we get it right."

  15. #15
    Y'all have to go to FFJ and read SkankySue's comments about BORG.

    She says that we are saying Burke suffers from "Autopsy"!

    Bwaaahaahaa!
    ...We have said to ourselves, look, there is never going to be a victory in this, there is no victory...John Ramsey: 6/24/98

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