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  1. #1
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    Rogue DNA

    As you all know, a major component of the Ramsey intruder theory of the case is that since DNA not belonging to JonBenet was found under her nails and on some spots in her underwear, it must belong only to her killer, because apparently all items in the world are sterile when it comes to DNA, and its presence therefore requires that its owner knowingly and deliberately came in contact with the item involved.

    Whoops! The world in general is increasingly inclined to disagree with this intruder theory. As the examination of evidence for DNA traces is becoming more and more common, what are we finding? Stories of unidentified DNA from multiple contributors appearing all over the place!

    Let us take a tour of these stories, shall we?

    http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/n...2b1d5d4505&p=1

    It wasn't a typical crime scene when the partial remains of six women were found on Robert (Willie) Pickton's farm. So authorities called forensic dentist Dr. David Sweet, who has "perfected" a procedure to identify victims whose bodies are badly decomposed or degraded.

    Sweet, a University of B.C. forensic odontologist, testified at Pickton's first-degree murder trial Wednesday that cells can be embedded in a tooth and remain there long after the rest of the body's soft tissue is gone.

    Sweet developed a process to pulverize teeth or bones to powder so DNA can then be extracted from them.

    Asked by Crown prosecutor Mike Petrie whether it was partly due to Sweet's work that the six victims in this case could be identified, Sweet replied: "Yes."

    On the opening day of the trial, a prosecutor told the jury it would hear that only small portions of the six victims were found on Pickton's Port Coquitlam farm; no intact bodies were discovered.

    Sweet, director of UBC's Bureau of Legal Dentistry (BOLD), said his process to extract DNA from teeth and bones is now followed around the world.

    Sweet is so internationally recognized that he worked in Thailand to identify thousands of tsunami victims and is a chief scientist with an Interpol committee that responds to disasters such as earthquakes and plane crashes, the court heard.

    Sweet testified that he is successful in getting DNA from teeth in 90 per cent of cases. Teeth typically have more DNA than bones, he added.

    Pickton admits the partial remains of six women were found on his pig farm, but he denies killing them.

    Petrie asked Sweet about some "rogue" DNA discovered on teeth retrieved from Sereena Abotsway and Andrea Joesbury after their partial remains were found in buckets in one of Pickton's freezers.

    The jury heard last week that Sweet's lab ground three teeth from Abotsway and two from Joesbury, and that testing in the RCMP lab found four of those teeth contained mystery DNA mixtures of two or three people.

    Pickton's DNA was not among the mixtures, but two people who visited his farm -- a man and a woman -- could not be ruled out as possible donors to one of Abotsway's teeth, the jury was told last week.

    A human tooth would not contain someone else's DNA, and Sweet's lab decontaminates the outside of exhibits so that any external DNA does not show up in the ground samples, he said.

    "I don't have any explanation for how that could happen," Sweet said. "We've not had this show up in the laboratory before, nor have we since."

    The mystery DNA does not match any of Sweet's employees -- including the janitor who cleans his lab -- or any of the teeth or bones he ground for other cases.

    "I don't believe it [the contamination] happened in my lab," he said.

    One possible explanation is that the mystery DNA was on so-called sterile lab equipment when he received it from manufacturers.

    But defence lawyer Marilyn Sandford noted Sweet's lab washes all lab equipment before using it, and that the mystery DNA doesn't match anyone in a database of lab equipment manufacturers.
    "That is my theory, it is mine, and belongs to me and I own it, and what it is too." -- Anne Elk

  2. #2
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    http://www.dailyherald.com/story.asp?id=303492

    The half-eaten chicken piece prosecutors say links Juan Luna to the Brown's Chicken murders also contains the DNA of at least one other person, test results show.

    Cecilia Doyle, a section chief at the Illinois State Police Crime Lab, testified Wednesday that she found two DNA profiles on the food in 1998. Though authorities say Luna matches one of them, they have never publicly mentioned the existence of a second contributor.

    It's also possible that three or more people's DNA could be on the chicken piece, Doyle said. There were a minimum of two sources and at least one of them was male, she said.

    "I got a mixture of DNA profiles," she said. "(There is) more than one contributor."

    Doyle used the DNA results to rule out 90 people, including the seven victims and scores of law-enforcement officials who may have come in contact with the food. She also excluded a man who admitted to the crime as well as a friend he implicated in his 1998 confession to police.

    All DNA swabs taken during testing, however, were later lost.

    "They were sent out, but they were never received at the destination," Doyle said.

    In 2002, authorities say they matched Luna's genetic code with DNA found on a half-eaten chicken piece discovered in the Palatine establishment's trash can. Prosecutors did not attempt to explain the existence of the second profile during testimony Wednesday.

    Prosecutors say Luna, a former Brown's employee, and his high school pal Jim Degorski killed the restaurant's two owners and five workers in January 1993 in an attempt to "do something big."

    Authorities have never said there is DNA evidence linking Degorski to the crime, presumably ruling him out as the second source on the chicken.

    The men, who are being tried separately, have pleaded not guilty to the crime. If convicted, both could face the death penalty.
    "That is my theory, it is mine, and belongs to me and I own it, and what it is too." -- Anne Elk

  3. #3
    Very interesting WhyNutt...and I believe it was rogue DNA that was found on JonBenet.

    If, if, JonBenet bathed on December 24, she went out several times and to several places from th 24th to the 25th.

    From what I can gather, this was JonBenet's itinerary:

    24 December:

    A visit to her friend Megan Kostanik's home
    Bathed? and put on a beautiful purple velvet dress with velvet shoes
    Church
    Dinner at Pasta Jays
    Trip to the big star
    Quick visit with the Whites

    25 December:

    Opened her gifts from who knows who
    Went outside to play with friends
    Sat outside Burke's door to make beaded necklaces
    Took off her soiled pants
    Did not bathe and changed into her Gap outfit
    Played at the White's home
    Came home

    The DNA found under her nails and panties could have come from anywhere.
    ...We have said to ourselves, look, there is never going to be a victory in this, there is no victory...John Ramsey: 6/24/98

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toltec View Post
    Sat outside Burke's door to make beaded necklaces
    Took off her soiled pants
    Did not bathe and changed into her Gap outfit
    Played at the White's home
    Came home
    Interesting, that. On December 25th JonBenet and her underwear sat on two different sets of carpet, which, as we all know, trap and hold every kind of shed material known to humankind, up to and including animal hair from the yard and human DNA tracked in on shoes from the whole of the world outside those carpeted rooms.
    "That is my theory, it is mine, and belongs to me and I own it, and what it is too." -- Anne Elk

  5. #5
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    I've always had a feeling that new DNA technology will blow the DNA 'evidence' in this case apart.I think it's going to get more and more refined over the years,and then what will the IDI folks have to go on? Nothing,for it will be all blown apart.
    something to ponder:

    When the corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and the mortal have put on immortality, then shall we be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?

    The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
    But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    1 Corinthians 15:54-57

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMO8778 View Post
    I've always had a feeling that new DNA technology will blow the DNA 'evidence' in this case apart.I think it's going to get more and more refined over the years,and then what will the IDI folks have to go on? Nothing,for it will be all blown apart.

    JMO8778,

    JonBenet's death is not a dna case, there is no evidence to confirm that any intruder was ever in the Ramsey house that night, her injuries are not consistent with any average domestic accident, perusal of the statistics suggest her injuries were severe and critical, these are not normally seen at accident and emergency wards, except in vehicle collisions, or terrorist attacks.

    One day someone will talk, probably off the record, most likely to defend a decision they took in the case, then the reason for not charging the main suspect will be revealed?

    Most of those involved investigating the death of JonBenet think her case is a typical incest case. The primary line of inquiry and investigation was such, but the public profile did not reflect this allowing allegations of conspiracy and corruption to be levelled.

    .

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    JMO8778,

    JonBenet's death is not a dna case, there is no evidence to confirm that any intruder was ever in the Ramsey house that night, her injuries are not consistent with any average domestic accident, perusal of the statistics suggest her injuries were severe and critical, these are not normally seen at accident and emergency wards, except in vehicle collisions, or terrorist attacks.
    I know,but the IDI's like to cling to that one tiny piece of non-evidence,as if it is evidence and as if it is significant.Although I think the old degraded DNA has been proven insignificant,I think the fact that its old and degraded and wasnt put there at the same time as JB's was, will only get stronger as more refined technology becomes available,perhaps even right down to being able to date it almost exactly to the day it was put there.

    One day someone will talk, probably off the record, most likely to defend a decision they took in the case, then the reason for not charging the main suspect will be revealed?
    I agree,I think it's just like anything else that been kept under wraps for a long time,someone,somewhere,sometime will talk.And it might very well be BR when he gets older.
    That's something I've noticed when watching Unsolved Mysteries....ppl can,will and DO talk later,usually when circumstances have changed and theyre no longer afraid to.

    Most of those involved investigating the death of JonBenet think her case is a typical incest case.
    I thought most ppl saw it as a toilet rage killing.Although that's viable,and maybe there is evidence that leads in that direction,in light of the fact it appears JB was being molested,I'm not so sure it's all that simple.

    The primary line of inquiry and investigation was such

    yes,as far as looking for child porn,etc...

    but the public profile did not reflect this allowing allegations of conspiracy and corruption to be levelled
    I'm not sure what you mean by this....do you mean the toilet rage theory was allowed to be generally accepted??

    .[/quote]
    something to ponder:

    When the corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and the mortal have put on immortality, then shall we be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?

    The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
    But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    1 Corinthians 15:54-57

  8. #8
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    I think I remember 10 years ago, right after the murder hit the news, that child porn, specifically photos of little girls bound up, were found on Access Graphics computers in Amsterdam. I believe JR had offices there and traveled there on occasion. Anyone else remember this?
    I don't know if this was true, but I remember thinking way back then that this murder might have been a "photography session" gone horrible wrong.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    I think I remember 10 years ago, right after the murder hit the news, that child porn, specifically photos of little girls bound up, were found on Access Graphics computers in Amsterdam. I believe JR had offices there and traveled there on occasion. Anyone else remember this?
    I don't know if this was true, but I remember thinking way back then that this murder might have been a "photography session" gone horrible wrong.
    all I can recall is that there were some things found to be deleted,that were thought to be significant,is that right? I don't recall that very well.
    something to ponder:

    When the corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and the mortal have put on immortality, then shall we be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?

    The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
    But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    1 Corinthians 15:54-57

  10. #10
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    I heard that report on the news- it was mentioned when the case was fresh, and just kind of faded away. I don't recall hearing that it was not true or had been disproven, I just never heard about it anymore.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMO8778 View Post
    I know,but the IDI's like to cling to that one tiny piece of non-evidence,as if it is evidence and as if it is significant.Although I think the old degraded DNA has been proven insignificant,I think the fact that its old and degraded and wasnt put there at the same time as JB's was, will only get stronger as more refined technology becomes available,perhaps even right down to being able to date it almost exactly to the day it was put there.



    I agree,I think it's just like anything else that been kept under wraps for a long time,someone,somewhere,sometime will talk.And it might very well be BR when he gets older.
    That's something I've noticed when watching Unsolved Mysteries....ppl can,will and DO talk later,usually when circumstances have changed and theyre no longer afraid to.



    I thought most ppl saw it as a toilet rage killing.Although that's viable,and maybe there is evidence that leads in that direction,in light of the fact it appears JB was being molested,I'm not so sure it's all that simple.




    yes,as far as looking for child porn,etc...



    I'm not sure what you mean by this....do you mean the toilet rage theory was allowed to be generally accepted??

    .
    [/QUOTE]


    JMO8778,
    Someone will talk, and it will probably be a crime documentary revealing new evidence suggesting the main suspect escaped prosecution because ...


    I thought most ppl saw it as a toilet rage killing.Although that's viable,and maybe there is evidence that leads in that direction,in light of the fact it appears JB was being molested,I'm not so sure it's all that simple.
    Toilet Rage is one of a number of theories put forward by the investigators, and was employed by Steve Thomas as a means to explaining the bizarre politics surrounding the case, but this theory is inconsistent with the current forensic evidence, as is the Intruder theory. The main underlying line of inquiry was that JonBenet's death was a Lust Murder, or Sexual Homicide, and that an incestuous relationship was the most likely motivating factor, forensic evidence was collected and searched for to back this assumption up.

    e.g. Photographs taken of JonBenet were studied, her pageant activities were logged and analysed, her clothing was checked, including all her underwear, many of which it transpired had stains of prior soiling. Unreleased autopsy photographs of JonBenet's genitals were studied, along with Coroner Meyer's notes and his opinion that JonBenet had been digitally penetrated, along with other private professional advice which led to the conclusion that JonBenet had a history of prior molestation, in the politically correct langauge of the investigators this was phrased as prior vaginal trauma

    The Boulder and Michigan residences were searched explicitly for child pornography e.g.
    January 30, 1997 Search Warrant
    755 15th Street, Boulder, Colorado

    http://www.acandyrose.com/01301997warrant.htm

    and

    Search Warrant for 112 Belvedere
    Charlevoix, Michigan
    March 06, 1997

    http://www.acandyrose.com/03061997warrant.htm

    Search Warrant for 112 Belvedere
    Charlevoix, Michigan
    January 05, 1997

    http://www.acandyrose.com/01051997warrant.htm

    also:
    Charlevoix County prosecutor Mary Beth Kur said she prepared a search warrant, along with a motion to seal the affidavit, which was granted by a judge. She said the documents contained information known only to the perpetrator.
    From memory the search results were redacted.


    I'm not sure what you mean by this....do you mean the toilet rage theory was allowed to be generally accepted??
    It was never challenged, along with the intruder theory they were media explanations, reasons for the lack of a conviction, despite forensic evidence offering probable cause, are many, one of which is conspiracy at an official level?


    .

  12. #12
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    JMO8778,
    Someone will talk, and it will probably be a crime documentary revealing new evidence suggesting the main suspect escaped prosecution because
    I'm guessing that won't happen until JR has passed.



    Toilet Rage is one of a number of theories put forward by the investigators, and was employed by Steve Thomas as a means to explaining the bizarre politics surrounding the case, but this theory is inconsistent with the current forensic evidence, as is the Intruder theory. The main underlying line of inquiry was that JonBenet's death was a Lust Murder, or Sexual Homicide, and that an incestuous relationship was the most likely motivating factor, forensic evidence was collected and searched for to back this assumption up.

    e.g. Photographs taken of JonBenet were studied, her pageant activities were logged and analysed, her clothing was checked, including all her underwear, many of which it transpired had stains of prior soiling. Unreleased autopsy photographs of JonBenet's genitals were studied, along with Coroner Meyer's notes and his opinion that JonBenet had been digitally penetrated, along with other private professional advice which led to the conclusion that JonBenet had a history of prior molestation, in the politically correct langauge of the investigators this was phrased as prior vaginal trauma

    The Boulder and Michigan residences were searched explicitly for child pornography e.g.
    January 30, 1997 Search Warrant
    755 15th Street, Boulder, Colorado

    http://www.acandyrose.com/01301997warrant.htm

    and

    Search Warrant for 112 Belvedere
    Charlevoix, Michigan
    March 06, 1997

    http://www.acandyrose.com/03061997warrant.htm

    Search Warrant for 112 Belvedere
    Charlevoix, Michigan
    January 05, 1997

    http://www.acandyrose.com/01051997warrant.htm

    also:

    From memory the search results were redacted.



    It was never challenged, along with the intruder theory they were media explanations, reasons for the lack of a conviction, despite forensic evidence offering probable cause, are many, one of which is conspiracy at an official level?


    .
    Thx,those are interesting links.
    I'm confused though...are you saying ST is lying? Or was he unable to get complete access to all of the evidence and what was going on behind the scenes politically...so he invented, or does he believe,the toilet rage theory? Can I ask,whom do you think killed JB?
    something to ponder:

    When the corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and the mortal have put on immortality, then shall we be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?

    The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
    But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    1 Corinthians 15:54-57

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMO8778 View Post
    I'm guessing that won't happen until JR has passed.



    Thx,those are interesting links.
    I'm confused though...are you saying ST is lying? Or was he unable to get complete access to all of the evidence and what was going on behind the scenes politically...so he invented, or does he believe,the toilet rage theory? Can I ask,whom do you think killed JB?
    JMO8778,

    Of course Steve Thomas was not lying, I do not think he believes his Toilet Rage theory, that was simply a device to give the rest of his book credibility. Consider, his then, legal constraints, he could never propose his actual whodunit theory, or enumerate the evidence, since he was bound by his terms of employment and libel law, also he was unable to obtain access to critical evidence, he eventually recognized that justice in Boulder was a relative concept, e.g. determined politically, so his book attempts to explain why he resigned and JonBenet never recieved the justice so many expected.

    Assuming the evidence is valid and that JonBenet was a victim of prior sexual molestation, that her pageant activities had a dual purpose, e.g. she was groomed as a victim. Part of her staging in the wine-cellar attempts to hide her prior sexual assault, or mask her previous sexual abuse, so this offers a clue to her killers motivation, otherwise it could have been incorporated into the violent garroting scenario without demonstrating any inconsistency?

    I think based upon the available forensic evidence that John Ramsey killed his daughter because she refused to perform some sexual act?

    Also I reckon Patsy was fully aware of the situation, and turned a blind eye, possibly even encouraging JonBenet, using the pageants to rationalize abusive behaviour. Patsy unable, or unwilling to fulfill John sexually, may have sacrificed JonBenet?


    .

  14. #14
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    Also I reckon Patsy was fully aware of the situation, and turned a blind eye, possibly even encouraging JonBenet, using the pageants to rationalize abusive behaviour. Patsy unable, or unwilling to fulfill John sexually, may have sacrificed JonBenet?
    I have a brother you'd get on with swimmingly.
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    JMO8778,

    Of course Steve Thomas was not lying, I do not think he believes his Toilet Rage theory, that was simply a device to give the rest of his book credibility. Consider, his then, legal constraints, he could never propose his actual whodunit theory, or enumerate the evidence, since he was bound by his terms of employment and libel law, also he was unable to obtain access to critical evidence, he eventually recognized that justice in Boulder was a relative concept, e.g. determined politically, so his book attempts to explain why he resigned and JonBenet never recieved the justice so many expected.

    Assuming the evidence is valid and that JonBenet was a victim of prior sexual molestation, that her pageant activities had a dual purpose, e.g. she was groomed as a victim. Part of her staging in the wine-cellar attempts to hide her prior sexual assault, or mask her previous sexual abuse, so this offers a clue to her killers motivation, otherwise it could have been incorporated into the violent garroting scenario without demonstrating any inconsistency?

    I think based upon the available forensic evidence that John Ramsey killed his daughter because she refused to perform some sexual act? You think John Ramsey killed his daughter because she refused to commit a sex act. Just think about that for a minute. John is going to give up everything he has worked for and risk the hatred of his other children by killing his youngest child because she would not have sex with him. And Patsy goes along with it and writes the note.

    That is beyond the pale. Not to mention that Patsy and John seem to absolutely have fun with each other in the videos I have seen after the death of JonBenet. She is running after him with a watergun. No, No way would she still show such affection for a man who killed her child for refusing him sex.

    UK, don't quit your day job. Seriously, Scotland Yard won't be calling anytime soon.


    Also I reckon Patsy was fully aware of the situation, and turned a blind eye, possibly even encouraging JonBenet, using the pageants to rationalize abusive behaviour. Patsy unable, or unwilling to fulfill John sexually, may have sacrificed JonBenet? Right, in the proverbial dreamland that you occupy.

    This is an accident and that is the ONLY REASON that John is helping covering this up - because Patsy could not believe what she had done and shook her furiously to wake her and John felt sorry for Patsy so he helped her.


    .

    Replies above - just a gentle reminder of the reality of this case.

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