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  1. #1
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    Sexual Abuse of JonBenet

    I thought this topic warranted a new thread, since it is such a hot one. I am going to post a site that has the pros and the cons. Just for everyone's information. In the interest of fairness, it should be posted:

    http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/Evi...Sexual%20Abuse


  2. #2
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    I happen to be on good terms with the guy who supplied much of that info.

    This got me:

    These findings imply an "expected" hymenal opening size of 6 mm for someone JBR's age; her actual opening size, 1 cm, placed her in the mid-range of sizes observed in this study among six-year olds known to have been abused (see Fig. 3 of the study). 99% specific means that using this reference standard (1 mm per year of age), 99% of those with hymenal opening sizes above this standard were actually abused (i.e., the test is 99% accurate in identifying such individuals: only 1 percent are incorrectly labelled as abused). 79% sensitive means that 21% of victims of abuse were missed using this standard.
    Vae Victus! (May the conquered suffer!)
    Celerem vindictam manu! (Swift hand of vengeance!)


  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    I happen to be on good terms with the guy who supplied much of that info.

    This got me:
    I found that interesting also, but it does not convince me.

    Yes, but then you have:

    1. "A number of genital anatomical features and hymenal measurements were described and found consistent with previous studies. An important finding was outward folding of the posterior hymenal rim in many girls, a feature that could be difficult to distinguish from attenuation of the posterior hymen. A gaping hymenal orifice, previously suggested to be a supportive sign of sexual abuse, was fairly frequently found and significantly associated with a large horizontal hymenal diameter." AK Myhre, K Berntzen, D Bratlid (2003). Genital anatomy in non-abused preschool girls. Acta Paediatrica 92 (12), 14531462. doi:10.1111/j.1651-2227.2003.tb00831.x
    And there is this,

    "There are doctors (even pediatricians) who claim that any inflammation of a little girl's vulva is a manifestation of sex abuse. Most, however, note that this is an extremely common finding and can result from sweat, tight pants, certain kinds of soap, and the occasional mild rubbing (sometimes masturbatory) activity of the normal girl."

    JonBenet wore all these tight fitting costumes; she had an ongoing rash from damp underwear - I just am skeptical of the allegations.


  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solace View Post
    I found that interesting also, but it does not convince me.

    Yes, but then you have:
    1. "A number of genital anatomical features and hymenal measurements were described and found consistent with previous studies. An important finding was outward folding of the posterior hymenal rim in many girls, a feature that could be difficult to distinguish from attenuation of the posterior hymen. A gaping hymenal orifice, previously suggested to be a supportive sign of sexual abuse, was fairly frequently found and significantly associated with a large horizontal hymenal diameter." AK Myhre, K Berntzen, D Bratlid (2003). Genital anatomy in non-abused preschool girls. Acta Paediatrica 92 (12), 1453–1462. doi:10.1111/j.1651-2227.2003.tb00831.x
    And there is this,

    "There are doctors (even pediatricians) who claim that any inflammation of a little girl's vulva is a manifestation of sex abuse. Most, however, note that this is an extremely common finding and can result from sweat, tight pants, certain kinds of soap, and the occasional mild rubbing (sometimes masturbatory) activity of the normal girl."

    JonBenet wore all these tight fitting costumes; she had an ongoing rash from damp underwear - I just am skeptical of the allegations.
    Would rubbing (masturbatory or from irritation) caused a larger than normal hymenal opening? I would think that would be caused by penetration, not rubbing, irritation or chronic damp underwear. A rash, most certainly, and I think allegations of abuse on irritation alone would be presumptuous.


  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrsjonnob View Post
    Would rubbing (masturbatory or from irritation) caused a larger than normal hymenal opening? I would think that would be caused by penetration, not rubbing, irritation or chronic damp underwear. A rash, most certainly, and I think allegations of abuse on irritation alone would be presumptuous.
    A gaping hymenal orifice, previously suggested to be a supportive sign of sexual abuse, was fairly frequently found and significantly associated with a large horizontal hymenal diameter."


  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solace View Post
    A gaping hymenal orifice, previously suggested to be a supportive sign of sexual abuse, was fairly frequently found and significantly associated with a large horizontal hymenal diameter."
    One can find a study to support or discredit any position.

    I think a gaping hymenal opening, vaginal irritation, inflammation and daytime soiling could all very normal. However, in a case where a child is murdered and sexual abuse may have been a motive, those symptoms have to be looked at with greater scrutiny.


  7. #7
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    That's an IDI argument - JonBenet's hymen was eroded and the opening enlarged because of bubble baths and rashes.

    I don't buy it. Irritation of the vulva and/or vagina from a rash does not cause a hymen to erode and the opening to enlarge. Perhaps if it could be proven that JonBenet's hymeneal measurement was in proportion to the rest of her vaginal/reproductive structure, I could see it....but otherwise, there are just too many signs that someone was molesting her to not draw that as the most likely conclusion as to why her measurements and structure seem abnormal.


  8. #8
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    Wouldn't these parents know that the surest way for the world to find out that JonBenet was being sexually abused would be to kill her? An autopsy would reveal everything.

    Wouldn't they also know medical examiners can date injuries? If you break a kids arm today, that won't hide the fact the arm was broken a month ago. So the idea they staged the sexual abuse to hide prior abuse is highly doubtful.


  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuisanceposter View Post
    That's an IDI argument - JonBenet's hymen was eroded and the opening enlarged because of bubble baths and rashes.

    I don't buy it. Irritation of the vulva and/or vagina from a rash does not cause a hymen to erode and the opening to enlarge. Perhaps if it could be proven that JonBenet's hymeneal measurement was in proportion to the rest of her vaginal/reproductive structure, I could see it....but otherwise, there are just too many signs that someone was molesting her to not draw that as the most likely conclusion as to why her measurements and structure seem abnormal.
    It may be an IDI argument, but I am not so sure sexual abuse occurred and that is why I posted the site. I don't believe a rash can cause an enlarged hyman unless it does swell up the whole area as an infection might. But she did not have infections from what we know. We know she had rashes. A rash can cause irritation and a swollen vulva.

    However, the site does say the following:

    A gaping hymenal orifice, previously suggested to be a supportive sign of sexual abuse, was fairly frequently found and significantly associated with a large horizontal hymenal diameter."

    I think this is important because the suggestion that she was abused is an important one. I don't think she was, sexually that is. I think you could call the pageants abuse, no doubt. And I think the fact that Patsy was douching her daily is abuse. But I just don't feel that there is enough evidence to prove that JB was sexually abuse, just mo.


  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solace View Post
    I think you could call the pageants abuse, no doubt. And I think the fact that Patsy was douching her daily is abuse. But I just don't feel that there is enough evidence to prove that JB was sexually abuse, just mo.
    I think routinely douching a 6 year old is sexual abuse and could totally explain the enlarged hymenal opening. I wasn't aware of that fact.


  11. #11
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    You know, Solace, one of the things that gets me about the question of was JonBenet sexually abused, is that I don't think Patsy's response to hearing of evidence of prior abuse is one of a mother who had no idea at all that someone may have been doing something to her daughter. I don't have it on hand, but she just doesn't seem that surprised to me at hearing there was evidence that JonBenet had been molested before the night she was killed.

    All the doctor visits, with that weird Dr Beuf, the school nurse visits, the three calls in one day that Patsy can't recall the topic of, the sexualization, the toileting issues, the abnormal structure....plus Patsy's lack of shock at hearing of suspected prior abuse....the story that she had changed when she came back from that Texas trip......I really think maybe someone was doing something nasty to JonBenet. I have no idea who.


  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrsjonnob View Post
    I think routinely douching a 6 year old is sexual abuse and could totally explain the enlarged hymenal opening. I wasn't aware of that fact.
    Maybe the douching was tied into someone abusing her. Patsy psychologically undoing the abuse she knew was happening by cleansing. Just a thought.


  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuisanceposter View Post
    You know, Solace, one of the things that gets me about the question of was JonBenet sexually abused, is that I don't think Patsy's response to hearing of evidence of prior abuse is one of a mother who had no idea at all that someone may have been doing something to her daughter. I don't have it on hand, but she just doesn't seem that surprised to me at hearing there was evidence that JonBenet had been molested before the night she was killed. I remember it. It is in the Enquirer book, which is great by the way. Haney asks her if she would be surprised to learn that there was sexual abuse (not verbatim). She says dam surprised and then asks the detective SHE HIRED if he had heard about it and he says yes there was talk. I cannot imagine that she did not hear about this, that the detective she and John hired certainly told someone.

    All the doctor visits, with that weird Dr Beuf, the school nurse visits, the three calls in one day that Patsy can't recall the topic of (I thought it was written down on the report that it concerned the bed wetting and the rashes - could be wrong), the sexualization, the toileting issues, the abnormal structure....plus Patsy's lack of shock at hearing of suspected prior abuse....the story that she had changed when she came back from that Texas trip......I really think maybe someone was doing something nasty to JonBenet. I have no idea who.
    Believe me I am not defending Patsy, but she did act shocked about it and very angry. Maybe she is not as shocked as you would expect. But she is definitely upset that he tells her about this.


  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrsjonnob View Post
    I think routinely douching a 6 year old is sexual abuse and could totally explain the enlarged hymenal opening. I wasn't aware of that fact.
    That is my point. I think it could also. Linda Hoffman Paugh, their housekeeper, said it was daily that she heard JonBenet and Patsy in the bathroom with JonBenet crying and Patsy yelling at her. She could be exaggerating but I think it was going on and also Colorado who use to post here said she knew it was said to be a big issue, the douching - by people who knew the Ramseys. Of course that is hearsay, but she lives in Boulder and might know more than most of us who do not.


  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solace View Post
    That is my point. I think it could also. Linda Hoffman Paugh, their housekeeper, said it was daily that she heard JonBenet and Patsy in the bathroom with JonBenet crying and Patsy yelling at her. She could be exaggerating but I think it was going on and also Colorado who use to post here said she knew it was said to be a big issue, the douching - by people who knew the Ramseys. Of course that is hearsay, but she lives in Boulder and might know more than most of us who do not.
    If this is the case, then the question is WHY? Was she doing it because she thought JB was dirty or was she trying to cleanse her from suspected abuse by a male person?

    What a sad life that poor girl had.


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