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Thread: Madeleine McCann 3 year old missing in Portugal

  1. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smugshots View Post
    I think we live in an 'F' up society because some people blame the victim instead of the perp, and in cases where the perp is caught the sentence is much to lenient.

    I'm sorry for the loss of your sister Jeana. I'm surprised at your stance on this considering your loss. Since you seem to think it's the victims fault that they were careless, does that mean you think your sister or your mother was careless and allowed your sister to become a victim? I guess this goes to show perps will find a way to take someone even when a parent is there.
    i dont see how you get blame all victims from jeana's post. if you dont wake when some1 enters your home it is nobody's fault. i dont see how not waking is = to not even being there. the victim here is a child who was neglected by her parents then kidnapped by some1 else.

  2. #252
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    I don't know why but, I really feel like we will get some sort of news about her whereabouts soon!!!!(Hopeful)

  3. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smugshots View Post
    I think we live in an 'F' up society because some people blame the victim instead of the perp, and in cases where the perp is caught the sentence is much to lenient.

    I'm sorry for the loss of your sister Jeana. I'm surprised at your stance on this considering your loss. Since you seem to think it's the victims fault that they were careless, does that mean you think your sister or your mother was careless and allowed your sister to become a victim? I guess this goes to show perps will find a way to take someone even when a parent is there.
    I don't think there's any need to attack Jeana for her opinion, or use her family tragedy to do it. Of course her family wasn't careless. Jeana's sister was an adult, at 19. She didn't need someone supervising her at all times. MADDIE IS A CHILD...not even yet four when she was taken, and she was left alone with her even younger twin siblings, with no parents anywhere near...I don't think 40-50-100 yards away in a strange place is considered "near", IMO.

    There's no question that the parents were neglectful. I don't imagine, though, that anyone is as angry at them as they are at themselves. Whether or not they ever get their child back, they will have to live with themselves forever, and I think it's punishment enough...I'm one of the ones who think they shouldn't have done what they did, but they have received the worst possible punishment...and likely it will be ongoing for the rest of their lives, whether or not Maddie is ever found.

  4. #254
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    This Murat guy...the secret chamber and porn on computer.... is scaring me.

  5. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smugshots View Post
    I think we live in an 'F' up society because some people blame the victim instead of the perp, and in cases where the perp is caught the sentence is much to lenient.

    I'm sorry for the loss of your sister Jeana. I'm surprised at your stance on this considering your loss. Since you seem to think it's the victims fault that they were careless, does that mean you think your sister or your mother was careless and allowed your sister to become a victim? I guess this goes to show perps will find a way to take someone even when a parent is there.

    Smug,
    I am sure that Jeana is not saying she doesn't feel for these parents. I am sure that she does. I know also that it does Maddie no good right now to point the finger at her parents but, it is a fact that she disappeared when they left her alone without adult supervision in a hotel room. Should they be punished any further than they already have bee? I don't think so but, world needs to be told that these kinds of practices are no longer safe. I would guess that when this is all over with a good or a bad outcome, her parents will be the ones telling people how to protect their children. Never leaving them alone would be one of those ways. Children depend on their parents each and every day to protect them and keep them safe from harm to the best of their ability(which they did not). I realize that things happen even when we are diligent but there are some things you just don't do.If you don't protect your own children who will?

  6. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smugshots View Post
    I think we live in an 'F' up society because some people blame the victim instead of the perp, and in cases where the perp is caught the sentence is much to lenient.

    I'm sorry for the loss of your sister Jeana. I'm surprised at your stance on this considering your loss. Since you seem to think it's the victims fault that they were careless, does that mean you think your sister or your mother was careless and allowed your sister to become a victim? I guess this goes to show perps will find a way to take someone even when a parent is there.

    Thank you. Yes, my mother blamed herself. My younger sister blamed herself. I guess its normal for parents to blame themselves, whether there is any truth to it or not. There is a huge difference between the cases though because my sister was 19 years old. Not three.

  7. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by englishleigh View Post
    I don't think there's any need to attack Jeana for her opinion, or use her family tragedy to do it. Of course her family wasn't careless. Jeana's sister was an adult, at 19. She didn't need someone supervising her at all times. MADDIE IS A CHILD...not even yet four when she was taken, and she was left alone with her even younger twin siblings, with no parents anywhere near...I don't think 40-50-100 yards away in a strange place is considered "near", IMO.

    There's no question that the parents were neglectful. I don't imagine, though, that anyone is as angry at them as they are at themselves. Whether or not they ever get their child back, they will have to live with themselves forever, and I think it's punishment enough...I'm one of the ones who think they shouldn't have done what they did, but they have received the worst possible punishment...and likely it will be ongoing for the rest of their lives, whether or not Maddie is ever found.
    I didn't attack anyone. If Jeana didn't want to discuss her family tragedy then she wouldn't have brought it.

    I just think that it is odd that she said people allow themselves to become victims then states how her family has been victim to a horrible crime.

    In my opinion it's never the victims fault! I don't care how careless someone may have been. The perp is always the one at fault regardless of the scenario!

  8. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smugshots View Post
    I didn't attack anyone. If Jeana didn't want to discuss her family tragedy then she wouldn't have brought it.

    I just think that it is odd that she said people allow themselves to become victims then states how her family has been victim to a horrible crime.

    In my opinion it's never the victims fault! I don't care how careless someone may have been. The perp is always the one at fault regardless of the scenario!
    it's not the victims fault. the victim is 3! nobody is saying Jessica Marie Lunsford's grandparents are at fault for not waking up. they did not leave her home alone to have dinner with a neighbor. bad thing can happen to your child no matter what you do. i try to keep my little ones safe and live in fear that it wont be enough. the perp should be tortured before he is executed imo. that does not mean her parents did not set this whole thing in motion.

  9. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smugshots View Post
    I didn't attack anyone. If Jeana didn't want to discuss her family tragedy then she wouldn't have brought it.

    I just think that it is odd that she said people allow themselves to become victims then states how her family has been victim to a horrible crime.

    In my opinion it's never the victims fault! I don't care how careless someone may have been. The perp is always the one at fault regardless of the scenario!

    No, at the end of the day, it's not the victim's fault they were attacked/abducted/killed...but sometimes, as in the McCann case, people do things that put themselves out there and leave them vulnerable to crime. Leaving their children unattended contributed GREATLY to the fact that Maddie was taken.

  10. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by englishleigh View Post
    Per FNC.....Maddie possibly recently SEEN inside a red van in a southern suburb of the resort area where she was taken...police investigating this new lead.
    Oh my, hope it's true. If it's her, to be seen, she's alive.

    I'd be shocked though that whomever has her would take any chance of having her seen at this point. This is the biggest international child kidnappping case probably ever. And look at the bucks involved. I'll HOPE though.

  11. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarpeDiem View Post
    Oh my, hope it's true. If it's her, to be seen, she's alive.

    I'd be shocked though that whomever has her would take any chance of having her seen at this point. This is the biggest international child kidnappping case probably ever. And look at he bucks involved. I'll HOPE though.
    maybe they felt they had to move her because cops are getting close. false sightings are common in high profile cases. lets hope this is real.

  12. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smugshots View Post
    I didn't attack anyone. If Jeana didn't want to discuss her family tragedy then she wouldn't have brought it.

    I just think that it is odd that she said people allow themselves to become victims then states how her family has been victim to a horrible crime.

    In my opinion it's never the victims fault! I don't care how careless someone may have been. The perp is always the one at fault regardless of the scenario!
    This family did allow themselves to become victims. It just so happened that it turned out to be a person that hurt their little girl. It could have just as easily been something like a fire or something that happened to them inside the hotel room.

  13. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by sherri79 View Post
    maybe they felt they had to move her because cops are getting close. false sightings are common in high profile cases. lets hope this is real.
    I pray to God that this is her.

  14. #264
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    Maybe it's time for a forum just for Maddie. That way these thoughts and debates could be separated and explored a bit.

    Petra mentioned the lifestyle there is/was so American 1950's, in her experience. Remember "Leave it to Beaver" my fellow Americans? And the era "Timmy and Lassie" lived in?

    I grieve for you our international posters for that innocence now lost.

    I'm really hoping for Madie. This needs to end NOW.

  15. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by christine2448 View Post
    This Murat guy...the secret chamber and porn on computer.... is scaring me.
    Me, too, Christine...I think he is definitely the one. I just hope he didn't harm Maddie and she is safe, elsewhere, and can be found.

    I agree with Carpe...it's time for Madeleine to have her own forum...please?

  16. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by emma l View Post
    Its is not a "cultural thing" in the UK to leave children alone. I can say that with 100% certainty, being british myself!
    Yep, that's why I didn't pass judgement about something I didn't know. I wasn't sure how "cultural" this practice was, and the article made me upset. Was the article pulished in Britain? Ugh, I guess it doesn't matter right- the article's suggestions surprised and shocked many of us anyway.

    I really believe that there are practices that are culturally acceptable because of situations that make it acceptable (i.e. lack of crime, tight-knit community) as Petra mentioned. (Happy 17 mai BTW!!!!) But I seemed to remember a story about a baby snatched from a stroller once outside ( I don't remember where, sorry)

    I hope they find Maddie and that we can all (after lots of free discussion *ahem) drop the "parents made a poor judgement" issue and move on with our good sleuthing/speculating skills to FIND Madeline.

    MG

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    CNN just posted this, what timing:

    http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/eu...sing.child.ap/

  18. #268
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    been reading here without signing in....

    [quote=Smugshots;1488526]I think we live in an 'F' up society because some people blame the victim instead of the perp, and in cases where the perp is caught the sentence is much to lenient.
    quote]

    but I just had to chime in on this. I have very strong feelings about the fact that these small children were left alone....haven't said anything about it because I can't even imagine the pain this family is going through...and the damage is already done.....BUT I feel the need to point out that parents need to be responsible for their actions where their children are concerned. I would NEVER EVER leave my children alone, especially in a foreign country, to appease my need for adult companionship. It is just plain wrong. Period.

    Maddie is the victim....by both the person who took her & her own parent's negligence.

    The parents are victims of their own making by being selfish and negligent.

    Maddie has all of my sympathy....her parents, though I do feel sorry for them....it's just not so much. Good parents put their children first, regardless of their own needs. Had they done this, Maddie would still be safe and sound.


    With all due respect,
    Ember
    ~*~Think Globally, Act Locally! Please Recycle! ~*~

  19. #269
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    Who ever has Madeleine must realize that the case has raised international interest - wouldn't they feel it best to release her and hope that they cannot be recognized? Or are they determined to keep her and hope the limelight fades regarding the case? There is something that is making the police feel she is not too far away and I have to wonder if they are not getting good solid leads.
    Not being in Portugal, what do (considering they find the kidnappers - hopefully) the courts do with regards to these sorts of crimes? Are they strict? Do they give life terms in jail? Do they have the death penalty in Portugal? Are they liable to give 10 years or so and then probation?
    Times have changed in regards to children being left alone - when I watch my grandchildren I watch them like a hawk. I would never forgive myself if something happened to them in my care.

  20. #270
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    I am in no way trying to trivialize the situation and it is such a tragic thing to happen, but if you leave your keys in your car, and your car gets stolen, (like I said, I'm not trying to make fun of or lessen the severity of the crime) you left your car open to be stolen.

    If someone watched you for a week, and noticed that you consistently came in from work at 10pm every night, and left the keys in the car, unlocked, they would know that they had a window of opportunity.

    Yes, the parents are victims, as is Maddie. Cultural differences or not, when something happens like this, we all have feelings about it. Think about the young girl that was stoned because she was dating someone from a different religion. We were all outraged (I still havent watched the video) but that's what they do in her religion.

    All differences aside, Maddie needs to be brought home.

  21. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by wicket View Post
    Times have changed in regards to children being left alone - when I watch my grandchildren I watch them like a hawk. I would never forgive myself if something happened to them in my care.
    times have changed. when i was little we roamed the neighborhood. it was a good 1 so why not. mom did not hold our hand in a store, hell we hid in the racks of clothes at sears totally out of her sight. then Adam Walsh was killed. we now know in a second your child can be gone. in this day in age i am truly shocked by this case. we hear about drug addicts and abusive parents that leave kids home alone. this was a well educated well off family. it's not a single mom who had to work and felt she had no choice. i think this is part of what upsets some of us so much. they knew better and did not feel they had to do it.

  22. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaWanda View Post
    I am in no way trying to trivialize the situation and it is such a tragic thing to happen, but if you leave your keys in your car, and your car gets stolen, (like I said, I'm not trying to make fun of or lessen the severity of the crime) you left your car open to be stolen.

    If someone watched you for a week, and noticed that you consistently came in from work at 10pm every night, and left the keys in the car, unlocked, they would know that they had a window of opportunity.

    Yes, the parents are victims, as is Maddie. Cultural differences or not, when something happens like this, we all have feelings about it. Think about the young girl that was stoned because she was dating someone from a different religion. We were all outraged (I still havent watched the video) but that's what they do in her religion.

    All differences aside, Maddie needs to be brought home.
    if a mom knows her boyfriend is having sex with her 5 year old and she stays with him because he says it wont happen again is she just as guilty as the perv? she knows the risk. because of her needs she ignores the risk to the safety of her child. i think my analogy works as well as yours.

  23. #273
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    LOL double post

  24. #274
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    I'm of the mindset that the parents should have taken advantage of the babysitting service, gotten room service, taken the kids with them or something. If they would have done this, Maddie would be splashing in the pool with her brother and sister. I know that the parents will forever think of their decision and the consequence of it. But .... ya gotta know that even in quiet places/cities/countries stuff like this CAN happen.

    I am a paranoid parent. I have 16 yr olds whom I still worry about if they are not home on the school bus at the right time. They have to call me when they get there.

    And yes, the Mom in your analogy should be as guilty as the perv. I'm on your side.
    Last edited by LaWanda; 05-17-2007 at 06:01 PM.

  25. #275
    Hello from Ireland,

    This is my first post here - so be gentle with me!

    It's wonderful to see how much international attention the Madeleine story is receiving, it truly has captured so many hearts.

    I'll admit to being utterly obsessed with it - my search for information led me here - it just occupies my thoughts all day and much of the night, it's utterly heartbreaking thinking about what the parents are going through. I'm not a religious person but even I have taken to praying lately, begging for her safe return.

    The discussion on this thread has been fascinating, although I've found the attacks on Madeleine's parents to be painful to read.

    Of course, and I don’t dispute this, if you look at the cold facts then the parents made a desperate mistake that night, but to accuse them of negligence, I think, is cruel.

    I have stayed in several similar complexes in Portugal to the one the McCanns were staying in. They all had the feeling of being safe, enclosed, ‘family-friendly’ communities, a feeling that was reinforced by the atmosphere in these Portuguese coastal towns, which is generally relaxed, laidback with no sense of threat or hint of crime. That’s why so many families from other parts of Europe go there (The Algarve), because there is that sense of peaceful, carefree security that no longer exists in most European towns and cities.

    You have to understand that to understand why the McCanns did what they did that night. Not in one million years, I believe, would they have done the same in their home countries, Scotland and England, but they were lulled in to a false sense of security in Portugal – and it now proves to be false because of the actions of, perhaps, just one man.

    The Algarve reminds me of how Ireland used to be about 20 years ago, which is part of its charm. I know it to be a beautiful, gentle part of the world, where kids are adored, so before this happened I too would have been much less careful than at home. And believe me, when it comes to kids I trust no one, but Portugal just always felt like a safe haven from a crazy world.

    Because of all this the McCanns clearly believed, in their innocence as it so tragically proved, that their children would be safe on the complex that evening. Sometimes it’s almost suggested that they went wandering off in to the town to eat, leaving the kids behind, but they didn’t, they stayed on the complex for their meal, checking on the kids every half hour or so.

    They were, in fact, physically closer to their kids than many of us are day to day, even at home. You’re upstairs making the bed, or on the phone to your boss, your kid’s playing at the end of the garden, you are distracted for maybe 10 minutes, your kid disappears, are you a negligent parent? I don’t think so, I think you are a desperately unlucky parent who has fallen victim to pure evil. As the McCanns have. As the saying goes, 'there but for the grace of God go I'.

    So, their ‘crime’, in my humble view, was one of innocence, not negligence. Yes, I know those who have criticised them will say that when it comes to kids parents simply cannot be ‘innocent’, they must be on their guard at all times. They’re right, of course, and no one knows that better now than the McCanns. They don’t need to be punished by the law, as some have suggested, they will be tortured by it for the rest of their lives.

    They were, from everything I have read and heard, loving, devoted parents who went through the ordeal of IVF treatment to have their children. What says it all for me is that Kate McCann (a doctor) was about to reduce her working week to two days so that she could spend more time with her children. How many professional men or women are prepared to do that any more? Of course, few parents have that choice due to financial strains, but still more choose to put their careers above the importance of spending as much time as possible with their kids in their formative years. Kate McCann, therefore, strikes me as a selfless parent whose children were the most important things in her life.


    On another point, there’s been quite a bit of discussion here about European attitudes to caring for children. The really important thing to remember is that Europe is a continent made up of dozens of countries, most with very different cultures and outlooks on life. Portugal, for example, is as different from Germany as chalk and cheese; England and Greece may as well be on different planets; Ireland and Austria have nothing in common, neither have France and Poland, etc. Different religions, languages, histories, politics, ideologies, everything. So, it’s simply not possible to make sweeping generalisations about Europe, just as it’s not appropriate to do so about American states. Having spent a little time in New York and Los Angeles I know they have as much in common as Portugal and Germany!


    Finally, be wary of some of the articles you’re reading from English and Portuguese newspaper websites – some of the reporting has been scandalous. For example, Expresso reported yesterday that Sergey Malinka, the Russian taken in for questioning, was a convicted child sex offender. It turns out that he has never committed a crime in his life (he had recently been checked out by the Portuguese when he applied for residency), they were confusing him with a rumoured Russian sex offender who the police are said to be looking for.

    As for Robert Murat. Yes, his behaviour has been odd, and there is some circumstantial evidence that makes him look suspect, but from what I can gather there is not a shred of evidence against him – yet. But he has already been ‘convicted’ by the British and Portuguese press.

    That’s it! Talk to you all later.

    Kathy

    PS I heard on the news tonight that the McCanns no longer turn on the news on TV because they find it so upsetting. Whenever Madeleine's photo appeared on the screen their young twins would get excited and wave at her. The heartbreak gets worse by the day.

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