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Thread: Madeleine McCann 3 year old missing in Portugal

  1. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by christine2448 View Post
    I disagree with you 100%. Too many people are afraid to say it like it is, not Jeana, and not me. The parents caused this. Sad, but true. I am devasted for them. We all make mistakes. This was a big one. I am sorry they made it...but they did.
    Amen!!

    And believe me...Jeana, as the sister of someone who was kidnapped and murdered, usually has the UTMOST and TOTAL sympathy for victims and their families. She is 100% correct, as usual, as is Christine. We all feel horrible for Gerry and Kate McCann and we all pray for Maddie...but the parents HELPED CAUSE this situation....they are now suffering the worse punishment anyone can ever suffer for it, too.

  2. #327
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    When it all boils down to it the actions of the parents allowed Maddie to be taken. They didnt cause her to be taken but their actions certainly allowed it.

    The russian suspect to my knowledge DOES have sex offences on his record - 3 of them.
    Brand new forum dedicated to the Keddie Cabin Murders - everyone welcome at
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  3. #328
    Quote Originally Posted by christine2448 View Post
    I disagree with you 100%. Too many people are afraid to say it like it is, not Jeana, and not me. The parents caused this. Sad, but true. I am devasted for them. We all make mistakes. This was a big one. I am sorry they made it...but they did.
    "The parents caused this"?????

    CAUSED?

    You are as incorrect as you are smug and heartless: the evil scum who abducted Madeleine caused this, no one else.

    As I said before, Madeleine's parents were guilty of innocence, in that they believed their children would be as safe in a Portuguese resort as children always have been in that part of the world, which I know so well (I can't imagine you'd be bothered reading my far-too-long post on this issue, but it's a few pages back).

    If you want to accuse them of being negligent, etc, etc, then fine, that's your view and you are more than entitled to it, but to be so venomous, at a time like this, as to accuse them of "causing" this is beyond belief.

    I stand by what I said, the smug and pitliess who express these oh-so-easy views should be ashamed. It's mind-boggling how, at a time like this, so many turn on the victims, rather than directing their contempt at the guilty.

  4. #329
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    Hi Roughly, A most interesting post I brought over to the next page so it wouldn't be missed.

    At first I thought I was reading the opening pages of a novel about one of Inspector Poirots cases. Laying out all the probabilities in the case and the wide scope of people it has reached, puts it in a different perspective.

    I think you have read up on or studied many cases involving abducted people, so I wanted to pick your brain a bit further.

    * Do you think she was taken by someone that lives locally.
    * Do you think she was taken for personal sexual gratification, to be used and then killed to hide his crime?
    * Do you think she was taken by someone who wanted a daughter.
    * Do you think she was taken and passed on to another to sell, and then was spirited out of the area quickly in a very organized way?
    * Why did they take only one child when they could have had 3?
    * Do you think this Mr Murat is involved in grabbing her from what you have read?

    The info gleaned so far tells me someone was casing for a little girl in that area. Have they located that man who was seen by several people, esp. by one father up close?

    With the 2 scenarios I think LE has zoned in on the sale idea and quick spiriting of her out of the area. That makes the search much more difficult.

    I think Interpol is very saavy, and if she can be found they will do it. If it is a ring, they have their fingers in this pot constantly IMHO.

    Statisticly she was dead after 4 or so hours, but I think that is if she was taken for personal use. I don't think that is the case because of the sightings like the one by the Norwegian lady on the Cote de Sol.

    I hope the parents hold out hope every minute of every day. They have to. LE does too if they are going to maintain a dilligent search to track her down. I wish we knew more about this other Russian sex offender. It could be he paid someone to grab a girl for himself. I wish we knew more about what LE knows, as always. ;} Scandi
    Last edited by Jeana (DP); 05-21-2007 at 06:21 PM.

  5. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by CarpeDiem View Post
    I guess I personally realized days ago that as an American parent, the experiences I brought to the parenting table are much different than Maddie's did. Different quality of life, different concerns, different upbringings in subtle yet big ways.
    I don't agree with that, to be honest. There are good parents, bad parents, careless parents, naive parents, etc, etc, all over the world, I don't think nationality comes in to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by CarpeDiem View Post
    All the anger, now that shock has worn off, should go to the monster that STOLE this child as she slept! Find her!
    Hear, hear, thank you for your compassion and wisdom.

  6. #331
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    I agree with your idea of parenting Irelande, but disagree about nationality. We have been told here Europeans have a more relaxed attitude about how they raise children and why that makes sense. Would this be mores? Europe is based on the smaller rural town, so I think the natural neighborhood watch is very effective. I know Scandanavia is that way, France, etc. The culture in America is totally different.

    I think the parents either should have taken the children with them to dinner, as is so traditionally done late into the night in Italy, Spain and Portugal. They decided not to. Or else they should have decided to eat in shifts. The thought in England is they were in a family friendly resort, quite close to the children with regular checkups on them. The parents made the wrong decision. But I do not think it was child neglect.

    If someone really wanted Maddy, they would have found another time or way to grab her.

  7. #332
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    <
    I stand by what I said, the smug and pitliess who express these oh-so-easy views should be ashamed. It's mind-boggling how, at a time like this, so many turn on the victims, rather than directing their contempt at the guilty.>>

    I think the defense of these parents' practices can only lead to more Madeleines in the future. The practice of leaving children sleeping unsupervised must be universally condemned worldwide from here on out.

    If they had left traveler's checks or jewelry in an unlocked hotel room, no one would feel sorry for them. The difference here is children were subjected to less care than you would give to common valuables.

    You can feel compassion for someone who is hurting without canonizing them as saints.

  8. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ireland_07 View Post
    "The parents caused this"?????

    CAUSED?

    You are as incorrect as you are smug and heartless: the evil scum who abducted Madeleine caused this, no one else.

    As I said before, Madeleine's parents were guilty of innocence, in that they believed their children would be as safe in a Portuguese resort as children always have been in that part of the world, which I know so well (I can't imagine you'd be bothered reading my far-too-long post on this issue, but it's a few pages back).

    If you want to accuse them of being negligent, etc, etc, then fine, that's your view and you are more than entitled to it, but to be so venomous, at a time like this, as to accuse them of "causing" this is beyond belief.

    I stand by what I said, the smug and pitliess who express these oh-so-easy views should be ashamed. It's mind-boggling how, at a time like this, so many turn on the victims, rather than directing their contempt at the guilty.
    You are right, cause was a poor choice of words, they contributed to this. The SOB (s) that kidnapped her are to blame, but the parents leaving them alone contributed, greatly. JMHO.

    Again, I am devastated for them (spelled it wrong in previous post ) but that doesn't take away from the fact that they ultimatley were responsible for those children and in no circumstances at those ages, FOR NO REASON, what so ever, should they have been left alone for 2 minutes, let alone for them to have dinner. Inexusable to me.

    My contempt is turned at the parents AND at the SOB (s) who took the child.

  9. #334
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    Hi Scandi,

    I think she was taken by someone who was either on holiday there, or lives there. I think she was taken for sexual purposes and then killed.

    I think if someone wanted a daughter, it would have been safer and smarter to choose the 2 year old -- easier to transport, can't talk well yet, very likely won't remember the circumstances under which she was taken due to her tender age at abduction.

    I think they took only one child because there was only one person involved in the actual kidnapping. I think the kidnapper was a man, so he would have been daunted at the prospect of carrying away three little children in a secretive manner. I also think he only needed one child.

    I think it is possible that Madeleine was kidnapped and taken to Africa or the Middle East, by someone who had customer for a child who looked like her. I don't think it is probable, though.

    I think there is a 50% chance, based on what I have read, that Mr. Murat is involved. His actions seem fishy, but they do not make the case. The police did not find Madeleine at his house. Much has been made of the secret room, but it was there when he moved in, and it is not easily accessed, and there was no sign of Madeleine there. The forensic test results are unknown. Right now, I think that RM is a questionable figure, but too much is unknown to form a strong opinion about him.

    There have been too many cases in which the abducted girl was found right next door, or close by. That's why I think this is the most likely what has occurred -- one person who lives nearby has or had her.

    It is very easy to get rid of a body in that area, because the sea is right there. The boat and the man could be anywhere by now.

    The Norwegian woman may believe with 99% certainty that she saw Madeleine, but that doesn't mean she did. She did not know about Madeleine's distinctive eye, so she may have seen a girl who looks very similar.

    There are very few actual facts known about this case, so it is hard to speculate based on facts. The news media has reported too many contradictory "facts". They are not even sure that the Russian man questioned is the same man as the Russian sex offender they had referred to in an earlier story.

    I know LE is working very hard on this case and I hope they are successful. I hope that I am wrong and that Madeleine is found alive.

    I am trying not to focus much of my time on this story, as of today. I do check to see whether Madeleine has been found, and I do pray for her. I also dream about her, and that has got to stop. In my dreams, I hear a little girl calling for her Mommy. This is not a psychic thing -- I've just been following the case, is all, and it is showing up in my dreams. I dream that I am awake while this is going on, then when I do drift close to being awake, even though I struggle to wake back up, I'm pulled right back into a Madeleine dream. For the first time, one of my kids woke me up from a nap, and I was grateful.

    The worst part is that it really hits home what her parents' dreams must be like. I hope they have sleeping pills that cause them to sleep without dreams, because if there aren't any pills like that, they must be tortured every time they sleep.




    Quote Originally Posted by scandi View Post

    * Do you think she was taken by someone that lives locally.
    * Do you think she was taken for personal sexual gratification, to be used and then killed to hide his crime?
    * Do you think she was taken by someone who wanted a daughter.
    * Do you think she was taken and passed on to another to sell, and then was spirited out of the area quickly in a very organized way?
    * Why did they take only one child when they could have had 3?
    * Do you think this Mr Murat is involved in grabbing her from what you have read?

    The info gleaned so far tells me someone was casing for a little girl in that area. Have they located that man who was seen by several people, esp. by one father up close?

    With the 2 scenarios I think LE has zoned in on the sale idea and quick spiriting of her out of the area. That makes the search much more difficult.

    Scandi

  10. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by missacorah View Post
    When it all boils down to it the actions of the parents allowed Maddie to be taken. They didnt cause her to be taken but their actions certainly allowed it.

    The russian suspect to my knowledge DOES have sex offences on his record - 3 of them.
    Hi Misscorah, I agree with you that the parents actions allowed it to happen. Since some man was approaching girls Matties ages in that area that we read about, I don't think they zoned in on her specificly, just had scoped her out and knew she was virtually vulnerable at that time and place.

    I wanted to link this great post by Petra {#228 if you scroll down} where she talks about the cultural differences in Europe:

    http://websleuths.com/forums/showthr...84#post1488084

    Also Misscora, when you speak of the Russian suspect, is that the one they interviewed on TV who said he doesn't have sex with little children? I know there is another Russian man who is a sex offender that supposedly has not been found yet.

    Thanks, Scandi

  11. #336
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    Thanks you Roughly, That was a really interesting post.

    One other thought I have is that in their 'advertising' of Mattie they made known the stark difference in her right eye. Putting myself in the mind of a kidnapper, once I realized that what I had was such a tell-tale ID mark, I would probably kill her. Changes like hair color and style could make her look different than she was, but that eye will always stay the same.

    I wish they hadn't told this to the public.

  12. #337
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ireland_07 View Post
    What an extraordinary thing to say. I can't begin to describe my contempt for that statement, you should be ashamed.
    lets look at her statement.... The parents caused this...
    if the parents had eaten in their room would she have been taken? if they had a baby sitter? if they had taken the kids with them? it was neglect. their neglect made there child a easy target. fire. what if fire had killed all 3 kids. would we not say the parents are to blame because they left the kids in a room alone. i would assume they are to far away to smell smoke since they are too far away to see some1 enter their room and take their child. the fact the parents set this in motion is not changed by the fact some1 else is involved. i pray that whatever this child suffers befalls the person who took her 10 times over. that does not clear her parent from the actions they took.

  13. #338
    Quote Originally Posted by scandi View Post
    I agree with your idea of parenting Irelande, but disagree about nationality. We have been told here Europeans have a more relaxed attitude about how they raise children and why that makes sense. Would this be mores? Europe is based on the smaller rural town, so I think the natural neighborhood watch is very effective. I know Scandanavia is that way, France, etc. The culture in America is totally different.
    Hi Scandi,

    I just think the mistake people are making on this board is assuming that Europe is all the one in terms of culture, including attitudes to child-rearing - it's not!

    As I said in an earlier post - The really important thing to remember is that Europe is a continent made up of dozens of countries, most with very different cultures and outlooks on life. Portugal, for example, is as different from Germany as chalk and cheese; England and Greece may as well be on different planets; Ireland and Austria have nothing in common, neither have France and Poland, etc. Different religions, languages, histories, politics, ideologies, everything. So, itís simply not possible to make sweeping generalisations about Europe, just as itís not appropriate to do so about American states. Having spent a little time in New York and Los Angeles I know they have as much in common as Portugal and Germany!

    And it just isn't true to say that "Europe is based on the smaller rural town". Of course large parts of Europe, just like the USA, are rural, with lots of small towns and villages, but the vast majority of the populations of each European country live in cities, often huge cities (London, Birmingham, Paris, Berlin, Munich, Rome, Madrid, Lisbon, Dublin, etc).

    It goes without saying that many aspects of American culture are utterly different to the cultures of almost all European countries (eg death penalty, gun laws, etc), but urban living in any country has so many common denominators too.

    Quote Originally Posted by scandi View Post
    The parents made the wrong decision. But I do not think it was child neglect. If someone really wanted Maddy, they would have found another time or way to grab her.
    I agree with you wholeheartedly.

  14. #339
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    Scandi, you know how much I love you, but how can you say this wasn't "neglect"?! ( !!) This little girl was 4 yrs old and had literally no way to protect herself from any type of danger. Her parents should have been there for her to keep her from any harm. As I said before though, it doesn't matter now. I do feel terribly for these parents and hope others learn from this. I really hope that $5,000,000 does some good.

    I have to run, so I'll catch up later.

  15. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ireland_07 View Post
    Hi Scandi,

    I just think the mistake people are making on this board is assuming that Europe is all the one in terms of culture, including attitudes to child-rearing - it's not!

    As I said in an earlier post - The really important thing to remember is that Europe is a continent made up of dozens of countries, most with very different cultures and outlooks on life. Portugal, for example, is as different from Germany as chalk and cheese; England and Greece may as well be on different planets; Ireland and Austria have nothing in common, neither have France and Poland, etc. Different religions, languages, histories, politics, ideologies, everything. So, itís simply not possible to make sweeping generalisations about Europe, just as itís not appropriate to do so about American states. Having spent a little time in New York and Los Angeles I know they have as much in common as Portugal and Germany!

    And it just isn't true to say that "Europe is based on the smaller rural town". Of course large parts of Europe, just like the USA, are rural, with lots of small towns and villages, but the vast majority of the populations of each European country live in cities, often huge cities (London, Birmingham, Paris, Berlin, Munich, Rome, Madrid, Lisbon, Dublin, etc).

    It goes without saying that many aspects of American culture are utterly different to the cultures of almost all European countries (eg death penalty, gun laws, etc), but urban living in any country has so many common denominators too.
    Very well put indeed!

  16. #341
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    I just wonder if Maddie got out of bed (drink? bathroom?), opened the door and wandered outside the room. It would have been easier to understand why she was taken and not the other children.

  17. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by sherri79 View Post
    lets look at her statement.... The parents caused this...
    if the parents had eaten in their room would she have been taken? if they had a baby sitter? if they had taken the kids with them? it was neglect. their neglect made there child a easy target. fire. what if fire had killed all 3 kids. would we not say the parents are to blame because they left the kids in a room alone. i would assume they are to far away to smell smoke since they are too far away to see some1 enter their room and take their child. the fact the parents set this in motion is not changed by the fact some1 else is involved. i pray that whatever this child suffers befalls the person who took her 10 times over. that does not clear her parent from the actions they took.
    What consequences do you think the parents should suffer? People love to repeat themselves about the parent's guilt in this matter and that's fine, but what do you think their punishment should be?
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  18. #343
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    So it's been over two weeks since Madeline has gone missing. It seems like other than the Murat story there haven't been too many new developments.

    I have to admit that based on other cases I have seen, after about a week my hope began fading for poor Maddy.

    I agree with Roughly Collie's speculation above that she was taken and killed. I sometimes wonder if the international response and huge reward increased the likelyhood she would be killed. Not that I think things should have been done differently, but I would think the kidnapper would freak out and do something rash even moreso after seeing the international outrage...

    How is everyone else feeling? Is your gut response that she is still alive?
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  19. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by scandi View Post
    Thanks you Roughly, That was a really interesting post.

    One other thought I have is that in their 'advertising' of Mattie they made known the stark difference in her right eye. Putting myself in the mind of a kidnapper, once I realized that what I had was such a tell-tale ID mark, I would probably kill her. Changes like hair color and style could make her look different than she was, but that eye will always stay the same.

    I wish they hadn't told this to the public.
    I don't know how I skipped over this post, but I agree with you 100%.
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  20. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ireland_07 View Post
    "The parents caused this"?????

    CAUSED?

    You are as incorrect as you are smug and heartless: the evil scum who abducted Madeleine caused this, no one else.

    As I said before, Madeleine's parents were guilty of innocence, in that they believed their children would be as safe in a Portuguese resort as children always have been in that part of the world, which I know so well (I can't imagine you'd be bothered reading my far-too-long post on this issue, but it's a few pages back).

    If you want to accuse them of being negligent, etc, etc, then fine, that's your view and you are more than entitled to it, but to be so venomous, at a time like this, as to accuse them of "causing" this is beyond belief.

    I stand by what I said, the smug and pitliess who express these oh-so-easy views should be ashamed. It's mind-boggling how, at a time like this, so many turn on the victims, rather than directing their contempt at the guilty.

    The baby who was left alone to be taken is the "victim" here. God only knows whats been happening to her since she was taken, but NEVER forget for one second that SHE is the victim in all this. Not the parents who will get to sleep in their warm bed and wake up to feel all over again that they could have prevented this.

  21. #346
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    Fwiw

    Huff and other crimebloggers are saying to take what is reported in the Portuguese newspapers with a grain of salt. Whether something is lost in translation, or whether their reporters like to exaggerate slightly, I do not know. One specific piece of wrong info Huff points to is the earlier report that a police dog got a positive "hit" on Madeleine's scent at Murat's house.

    As for the parents, I have to wonder what impaired their judgment so radically. I wonder if either or both were/are substance-abusers. It seems drastically wrong that two persons intelligent enough to get through med school would think it was OK to leave their babies alone in a room at a forieign resort for hours on end, not just once, but several times during their vacation.

  22. #347
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    jeez, we're still debating the actions of the parents?
    and wtf is taking LE in Portugal so long???? I am more and more frustrated and impatient with this story each day! Dear God please help find Maddie so everyone can just breathe a sigh of relief.

    MG

  23. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olivia77 View Post
    What consequences do you think the parents should suffer? People love to repeat themselves about the parent's guilt in this matter and that's fine, but what do you think their punishment should be?
    No punishment could be worse than the not know ing and the horrible reality they are living in... I think that it is a mute point now. If they never know what happened to their daughter it will be the most awful way to live.I pray that somehow they will find out regardless of the outcome.

  24. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olivia77 View Post
    So it's been over two weeks since Madeline has gone missing. It seems like other than the Murat story there haven't been too many new developments.

    I have to admit that based on other cases I have seen, after about a week my hope began fading for poor Maddy.

    I agree with Roughly Collie's speculation above that she was taken and killed. I sometimes wonder if the international response and huge reward increased the likelyhood she would be killed. Not that I think things should have been done differently, but I would think the kidnapper would freak out and do something rash even moreso after seeing the international outrage...

    How is everyone else feeling? Is your gut response that she is still alive?
    My gut is telling me that she was taken by a sick twisted pportunistic perv who probably took her and killed her within a day or two. I hate that I feel this but I do....I do not believe this is an international child trafficking crime.

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    Well said, Jeana

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeana (DP) View Post
    The baby who was left alone to be taken is the "victim" here. God only knows whats been happening to her since she was taken, but NEVER forget for one second that SHE is the victim in all this. Not the parents who will get to sleep in their warm bed and wake up to feel all over again that they could have prevented this.
    I wonder if the parents will stay in Portugal forever.

    I don't know how they could lift their heads back home.

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