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  1. #1
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    A Variation on a Rage Theory

    How many think they can see parallels between this and the death of JonBenet?

    Excerpt
    WAS DAUGHTER ATTACKED FOR INTERRUPTING A SEX SESSION?
    Tycoon dad held as docs fight to save battered tot
    By Jeff Edwards And Emily Miller 04/06/2007

    A CHILD may have been savagely beaten by her millionaire dad because she interrupted a sex session with his wife, police revealed yesterday.

    The two-year-old was last night fighting for life in hospital with a shattered skull and brain injuries after the attack in which she was allegedly punched, kicked and had her head battered against the floor. Doctors fear she will not survive

    ...
    Source:
    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstor...9520-19242213/


    .

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    How many think they can see parallels between this and the death of JonBenet?
    I think there are more parallels though with this murder with staged scene, especially the parent's behavior: http://www.serve.com/PHIHOM/articles/LOmar2005.htm

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    How many think they can see parallels between this and the death of JonBenet?

    Excerpt


    Source:
    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstor...9520-19242213/


    .
    Sorry no I dont see the connection

  4. #4
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    Wow, those are some horrible stories. I see similarities between both of them to the Ramsey case. I definitely think JonBenet's death was the result of child abuse...but how much of it involved sexual abuse is still in question in my mind. I definitely think JonBenet's medical history, incontinence, and abnormal vaginal state indicate that she was molested, but starting when, and by who?

    I'm not sure when the vaginal assault is dated to - anyone know how soon before she died her vagina was injured?

    If it weren't for the abnormal vaginal findings, I might even chalk up the incontinence and frequent vaginal ailments to the stress of the life Patsy wanted JB to live...but hymens don't erode and enlarge unless someone is doing to them, and it wasn't JB or bubble baths.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuisanceposter View Post
    Wow, those are some horrible stories. I see similarities between both of them to the Ramsey case. I definitely think JonBenet's death was the result of child abuse...but how much of it involved sexual abuse is still in question in my mind. I definitely think JonBenet's medical history, incontinence, and abnormal vaginal state indicate that she was molested, but starting when, and by who?

    I'm not sure when the vaginal assault is dated to - anyone know how soon before she died her vagina was injured?

    If it weren't for the abnormal vaginal findings, I might even chalk up the incontinence and frequent vaginal ailments to the stress of the life Patsy wanted JB to live...but hymens don't erode and enlarge unless someone is doing to them, and it wasn't JB or bubble baths.
    What is JB?

    But to be fair, there is a site that says the assault does not mean prior abuse, the size of the opening does not mean prior abuse - it says in fact that a percentage of children who are not abused would have the same physical attributes. So there is a case against abuse also, Just fyi.

    FYI,

    • Variations in Hymenal Opening Normal.
    1. "A number of genital anatomical features and hymenal measurements were described and found consistent with previous studies. An important finding was outward folding of the posterior hymenal rim in many girls, a feature that could be difficult to distinguish from attenuation of the posterior hymen. A gaping hymenal orifice, previously suggested to be a supportive sign of sexual abuse, was fairly frequently found and significantly associated with a large horizontal hymenal diameter." AK Myhre, K Berntzen, D Bratlid (2003). Genital anatomy in non-abused preschool girls. Acta Paediatrica 92 (12), 1453–1462. doi:10.1111/j.1651-2227.2003.tb00831.x
    2. "The normal crescent-shaped hymen is most common in prepubertal girls. Other normal findings may include midline avascular areas, periurethral bands, longitudinal intravaginal ridges, superior and lateral notches, and some bumps and hymenal tags. Other anatomical configurations of the hymen, which may normally be observed in prepubertal girls, include an annular hymen, fimbriated hymen, septate hymen, and microperforate hymen."
    3. Ann S. Botash, MD. "The findings of carefully conducted research studies of non-abused children should be used in medical evaluations for suspected sexual abuse if they are to be legally defensible. These studies have shown that a "wide" hymenal opening and a "narrow" rim of hymen should not be used as markers of abuse." JA Adams (2003). Normal studies are essential for objective medical evaluations of children who may have been sexually abused." Acta Paediatrica 92 (12), 1378–1380. doi:10.1111/j.1651-2227.2003.tb00818.x
    • Variations in Hymenal Opening Normal.
    1. "A number of genital anatomical features and hymenal measurements were described and found consistent with previous studies. An important finding was outward folding of the posterior hymenal rim in many girls, a feature that could be difficult to distinguish from attenuation of the posterior hymen. A gaping hymenal orifice, previously suggested to be a supportive sign of sexual abuse, was fairly frequently found and significantly associated with a large horizontal hymenal diameter." AK Myhre, K Berntzen, D Bratlid (2003). Genital anatomy in non-abused preschool girls. Acta Paediatrica 92 (12), 1453–1462. doi:10.1111/j.1651-2227.2003.tb00831.x
    2. "The normal crescent-shaped hymen is most common in prepubertal girls. Other normal findings may include midline avascular areas, periurethral bands, longitudinal intravaginal ridges, superior and lateral notches, and some bumps and hymenal tags. Other anatomical configurations of the hymen, which may normally be observed in prepubertal girls, include an annular hymen, fimbriated hymen, septate hymen, and microperforate hymen."
    3. Ann S. Botash, MD. "The findings of carefully conducted research studies of non-abused children should be used in medical evaluations for suspected sexual abuse if they are to be legally defensible. These studies have shown that a "wide" hymenal opening and a "narrow" rim of hymen should not be used as markers of abuse." JA Adams (2003). Normal studies are essential for objective medical evaluations of children who may have been sexually abused." Acta Paediatrica 92 (12), 1378–1380. doi:10.1111/j.1651-2227.2003.tb00818.x

  6. #6
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    You can't take a study about opening size and use it to justify a lack of abuse when the doctor found evidence of chronic injury at autopsy.

    Dead girl + chronic injury + enlarged opening = abuse.

  7. #7
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    chronic injury is dx when the tissue inside is examined under a microscope at the cellular level,not just checking the opening size, and JB's dx did indicate chronic abuse,although if she was being douched,that would have to be taken into consideration.
    something to ponder:

    When the corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and the mortal have put on immortality, then shall we be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?

    The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
    But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    1 Corinthians 15:54-57

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMO8778 View Post
    chronic injury is dx when the tissue inside is examined under a microscope at the cellular level,not just checking the opening size, and JB's dx did indicate chronic abuse,although if she was being douched,that would have to be taken into consideration.
    Thank you. Now we have to absolutely document the douching. Anybody care to help here.

  9. #9
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    Here's some information about the "douches":
    Steve Thomas HB "JonBenét" - page 227 (Courtesy of Little FFJ)

    Page 227

    In mid-September, a panel of pediatric experts from around the country
    reached one of the major conclusions of the investigation-that JonBenet
    had suffered vaginal trauma prior to the day she was killed.................

    "There was chronic abuse" . . . "Past violation of the vagina" . . .

    "Evidence of both acute injury and chronic sexual abuse." In other

    words, the doctors were saying it had happened before. One expert

    summed it up well when he said the injuries were not consistent with

    sexual assault but with a child who was being physically abused.


    None of those things would be untrue of using douches on a 6 yr old.
    One of the problems with expert examiners is that they tend to see what they are used to seeing. Some did look at the injuries to JB and say that maybe it was not so straight-forward as just being a case of sexual abuse. One was Dr. Richard Krugman who said " Was she sexually assaulted? Did she die because of the cord buried deep in the flesh of her neck, or because of her severely fractured skull? Krugman isn't sure of the answer to either question. But he said he is certain that she was physically abused. "I know nothing that I have seen that would make me think the primary finding is sexual abuse,'' Krugman said." Dr. Lee has said it appeared to him to be a domestic accident.

    If the chronic vaginal injuries were caused by Patsy giving JonBenet douches, that in and of itself is physical abuse.

    These are on Forums for Justice.
    ...the truth is never far behind, I've learned my lessons well...

  10. #10
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    Were any douching products or equipment, etc, ever taken into evidence? Were any ever found in any of the bathrooms in the Ramsey house, specifically a bathroom other than Patsy's on the third floor (where I would expect items like that to be found)? Did LHP or her predecessor Linda Wilcox ever comment on douche in relation to the Ramseys?


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuisanceposter View Post
    Wow, those are some horrible stories. I see similarities between both of them to the Ramsey case. I definitely think JonBenet's death was the result of child abuse...but how much of it involved sexual abuse is still in question in my mind. I definitely think JonBenet's medical history, incontinence, and abnormal vaginal state indicate that she was molested, but starting when, and by who?

    I'm not sure when the vaginal assault is dated to - anyone know how soon before she died her vagina was injured?

    If it weren't for the abnormal vaginal findings, I might even chalk up the incontinence and frequent vaginal ailments to the stress of the life Patsy wanted JB to live...but hymens don't erode and enlarge unless someone is doing to them, and it wasn't JB or bubble baths.

    I don't think that kind of thing can be dated. The prior abuse that caused the hymenal erosion, vaginal congestion/hyperemia, even some of the bruising could have been weeks or days before, or just the day before. Only the acute injury that resulted in the blood being found would have happened near the time of death.
    I don't recall reading anywhere PR talking about douching her daughter, nor do I recall seeing any of her friends mentioning it either, but I could be wrong. Anyone have it?
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuisanceposter View Post
    Were any douching products or equipment, etc, ever taken into evidence? Were any ever found in any of the bathrooms in the Ramsey house, specifically a bathroom other than Patsy's on the third floor (where I would expect items like that to be found)? Did LHP or her predecessor Linda Wilcox ever comment on douche in relation to the Ramseys?
    Patsy claiming she didn't know when JonBenet last bathed somehow relates to the crime, but in what way? Why is Patsy distancing herself from JonBenet's last bath, acting as if she has no knowledge of it or association to it?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    I don't think that kind of thing can be dated. The prior abuse that caused the hymenal erosion, vaginal congestion/hyperemia, even some of the bruising could have been weeks or days before, or just the day before. Only the acute injury that resulted in the blood being found would have happened near the time of death.
    I don't recall reading anywhere PR talking about douching her daughter, nor do I recall seeing any of her friends mentioning it either, but I could be wrong. Anyone have it?
    DeeDee249,
    Douching in this case is an imaginative invention, it does not form the basis for any official theory, and has no forensic evidence to back it up, as far as I understand, no douching products were removed from the ramsey house?

    Steve Thomas in his book suggests that JonBenet may have been the recipient of corporal punishment as a consequence of either bedwetting or bed-soiling, and that this may have caused her chronic vaginal trauma?

    The above theory is inconsistent with the available forensic evidence.


    .

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tober View Post
    Patsy claiming she didn't know when JonBenet last bathed somehow relates to the crime, but in what way? Why is Patsy distancing herself from JonBenet's last bath, acting as if she has no knowledge of it or association to it?
    Tober,

    I'm not certain where you got that, but if Patsy knew when JonBenet last bathed she would likely have supervised the bathing, she is on record as saying so.

    Then Patsy could tell the investigators as to how clean genitally JonBenet was, if she applied any medicinal products, what underwear she was wearing prior to her bath, and what underwear she was wearing after being bathed.

    All this information would clarify the size-12 underwear issue, and the possible status of the underwear left lying on her bathroom floor?


    .

  15. #15
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    Colorado we need you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuisanceposter View Post
    Were any douching products or equipment, etc, ever taken into evidence? Were any ever found in any of the bathrooms in the Ramsey house, specifically a bathroom other than Patsy's on the third floor (where I would expect items like that to be found)? Did LHP or her predecessor Linda Wilcox ever comment on douche in relation to the Ramseys?
    CK,

    Help us out here.

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