A Variation on a Rage Theory

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How many think they can see parallels between this and the death of JonBenet?

Excerpt
WAS DAUGHTER ATTACKED FOR INTERRUPTING A SEX SESSION?
Tycoon dad held as docs fight to save battered tot
By Jeff Edwards And Emily Miller 04/06/2007

A CHILD may have been savagely beaten by her millionaire dad because she interrupted a sex session with his wife, police revealed yesterday.

The two-year-old was last night fighting for life in hospital with a shattered skull and brain injuries after the attack in which she was allegedly punched, kicked and had her head battered against the floor. Doctors fear she will not survive

...
Click to expand...

Source:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topsto...interrupting-a-sex-session----89520-19242213/


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Wow, those are some horrible stories. I see similarities between both of them to the Ramsey case. I definitely think JonBenet's death was the result of child abuse...but how much of it involved sexual abuse is still in question in my mind. I definitely think JonBenet's medical history, incontinence, and abnormal vaginal state indicate that she was molested, but starting when, and by who?

I'm not sure when the vaginal assault is dated to - anyone know how soon before she died her vagina was injured?

If it weren't for the abnormal vaginal findings, I might even chalk up the incontinence and frequent vaginal ailments to the stress of the life Patsy wanted JB to live...but hymens don't erode and enlarge unless someone is doing to them, and it wasn't JB or bubble baths.
 
Nuisanceposter said:
Wow, those are some horrible stories. I see similarities between both of them to the Ramsey case. I definitely think JonBenet's death was the result of child abuse...but how much of it involved sexual abuse is still in question in my mind. I definitely think JonBenet's medical history, incontinence, and abnormal vaginal state indicate that she was molested, but starting when, and by who?

I'm not sure when the vaginal assault is dated to - anyone know how soon before she died her vagina was injured?

If it weren't for the abnormal vaginal findings, I might even chalk up the incontinence and frequent vaginal ailments to the stress of the life Patsy wanted JB to live...but hymens don't erode and enlarge unless someone is doing to them, and it wasn't JB or bubble baths.
Click to expand...

What is JB?

But to be fair, there is a site that says the assault does not mean prior abuse, the size of the opening does not mean prior abuse - it says in fact that a percentage of children who are not abused would have the same physical attributes. So there is a case against abuse also, Just fyi.

FYI,

  • Variations in Hymenal Opening Normal.
  1. "A number of genital anatomical features and hymenal measurements were described and found consistent with previous studies. An important finding was outward folding of the posterior hymenal rim in many girls, a feature that could be difficult to distinguish from attenuation of the posterior hymen. A gaping hymenal orifice, previously suggested to be a supportive sign of sexual abuse, was fairly frequently found and significantly associated with a large horizontal hymenal diameter." AK Myhre, K Berntzen, D Bratlid (2003). Genital anatomy in non-abused preschool girls. Acta Paediatrica 92 (12), 1453–1462. doi:10.1111/j.1651-2227.2003.tb00831.x
  2. "The normal crescent-shaped hymen is most common in prepubertal girls. Other normal findings may include midline avascular areas, periurethral bands, longitudinal intravaginal ridges, superior and lateral notches, and some bumps and hymenal tags. Other anatomical configurations of the hymen, which may normally be observed in prepubertal girls, include an annular hymen, fimbriated hymen, septate hymen, and microperforate hymen."
  3. Ann S. Botash, MD. "The findings of carefully conducted research studies of non-abused children should be used in medical evaluations for suspected sexual abuse if they are to be legally defensible. These studies have shown that a "wide" hymenal opening and a "narrow" rim of hymen should not be used as markers of abuse." JA Adams (2003). Normal studies are essential for objective medical evaluations of children who may have been sexually abused." Acta Paediatrica 92 (12), 1378–1380. doi:10.1111/j.1651-2227.2003.tb00818.x
  • Variations in Hymenal Opening Normal.
  1. "A number of genital anatomical features and hymenal measurements were described and found consistent with previous studies. An important finding was outward folding of the posterior hymenal rim in many girls, a feature that could be difficult to distinguish from attenuation of the posterior hymen. A gaping hymenal orifice, previously suggested to be a supportive sign of sexual abuse, was fairly frequently found and significantly associated with a large horizontal hymenal diameter." AK Myhre, K Berntzen, D Bratlid (2003). Genital anatomy in non-abused preschool girls. Acta Paediatrica 92 (12), 1453–1462. doi:10.1111/j.1651-2227.2003.tb00831.x
  2. "The normal crescent-shaped hymen is most common in prepubertal girls. Other normal findings may include midline avascular areas, periurethral bands, longitudinal intravaginal ridges, superior and lateral notches, and some bumps and hymenal tags. Other anatomical configurations of the hymen, which may normally be observed in prepubertal girls, include an annular hymen, fimbriated hymen, septate hymen, and microperforate hymen."
  3. Ann S. Botash, MD. "The findings of carefully conducted research studies of non-abused children should be used in medical evaluations for suspected sexual abuse if they are to be legally defensible. These studies have shown that a "wide" hymenal opening and a "narrow" rim of hymen should not be used as markers of abuse." JA Adams (2003). Normal studies are essential for objective medical evaluations of children who may have been sexually abused." Acta Paediatrica 92 (12), 1378–1380. doi:10.1111/j.1651-2227.2003.tb00818.x
 
You can't take a study about opening size and use it to justify a lack of abuse when the doctor found evidence of chronic injury at autopsy.

Dead girl + chronic injury + enlarged opening = abuse.
 
chronic injury is dx when the tissue inside is examined under a microscope at the cellular level,not just checking the opening size, and JB's dx did indicate chronic abuse,although if she was being douched,that would have to be taken into consideration.
 
JMO8778 said:
chronic injury is dx when the tissue inside is examined under a microscope at the cellular level,not just checking the opening size, and JB's dx did indicate chronic abuse,although if she was being douched,that would have to be taken into consideration.
Click to expand...

Thank you. Now we have to absolutely document the douching. Anybody care to help here.
 
Here's some information about the "douches":
Steve Thomas HB "JonBenét" - page 227 (Courtesy of Little FFJ)

Page 227

In mid-September, a panel of pediatric experts from around the country
reached one of the major conclusions of the investigation-that JonBenet
had suffered vaginal trauma prior to the day she was killed.................

"There was chronic abuse" . . . "Past violation of the vagina" . . .

"Evidence of both acute injury and chronic sexual abuse." In other

words, the doctors were saying it had happened before. One expert

summed it up well when he said the injuries were not consistent with

sexual assault but with a child who was being physically abused.


None of those things would be untrue of using douches on a 6 yr old.
One of the problems with expert examiners is that they tend to see what they are used to seeing. Some did look at the injuries to JB and say that maybe it was not so straight-forward as just being a case of sexual abuse. One was Dr. Richard Krugman who said " Was she sexually assaulted? Did she die because of the cord buried deep in the flesh of her neck, or because of her severely fractured skull? Krugman isn't sure of the answer to either question. But he said he is certain that she was physically abused. "I know nothing that I have seen that would make me think the primary finding is sexual abuse,'' Krugman said." Dr. Lee has said it appeared to him to be a domestic accident.

If the chronic vaginal injuries were caused by Patsy giving JonBenet douches, that in and of itself is physical abuse.

These are on Forums for Justice.
​
​
 
Were any douching products or equipment, etc, ever taken into evidence? Were any ever found in any of the bathrooms in the Ramsey house, specifically a bathroom other than Patsy's on the third floor (where I would expect items like that to be found)? Did LHP or her predecessor Linda Wilcox ever comment on douche in relation to the Ramseys?
 
Nuisanceposter said:
Wow, those are some horrible stories. I see similarities between both of them to the Ramsey case. I definitely think JonBenet's death was the result of child abuse...but how much of it involved sexual abuse is still in question in my mind. I definitely think JonBenet's medical history, incontinence, and abnormal vaginal state indicate that she was molested, but starting when, and by who?

I'm not sure when the vaginal assault is dated to - anyone know how soon before she died her vagina was injured?

If it weren't for the abnormal vaginal findings, I might even chalk up the incontinence and frequent vaginal ailments to the stress of the life Patsy wanted JB to live...but hymens don't erode and enlarge unless someone is doing to them, and it wasn't JB or bubble baths.
Click to expand...


I don't think that kind of thing can be dated. The prior abuse that caused the hymenal erosion, vaginal congestion/hyperemia, even some of the bruising could have been weeks or days before, or just the day before. Only the acute injury that resulted in the blood being found would have happened near the time of death.
I don't recall reading anywhere PR talking about douching her daughter, nor do I recall seeing any of her friends mentioning it either, but I could be wrong. Anyone have it?
 
Nuisanceposter said:
Were any douching products or equipment, etc, ever taken into evidence? Were any ever found in any of the bathrooms in the Ramsey house, specifically a bathroom other than Patsy's on the third floor (where I would expect items like that to be found)? Did LHP or her predecessor Linda Wilcox ever comment on douche in relation to the Ramseys?
Click to expand...
Patsy claiming she didn't know when JonBenet last bathed somehow relates to the crime, but in what way? Why is Patsy distancing herself from JonBenet's last bath, acting as if she has no knowledge of it or association to it?
 
DeeDee249 said:
I don't think that kind of thing can be dated. The prior abuse that caused the hymenal erosion, vaginal congestion/hyperemia, even some of the bruising could have been weeks or days before, or just the day before. Only the acute injury that resulted in the blood being found would have happened near the time of death.
I don't recall reading anywhere PR talking about douching her daughter, nor do I recall seeing any of her friends mentioning it either, but I could be wrong. Anyone have it?
Click to expand...

DeeDee249,
Douching in this case is an imaginative invention, it does not form the basis for any official theory, and has no forensic evidence to back it up, as far as I understand, no douching products were removed from the ramsey house?

Steve Thomas in his book suggests that JonBenet may have been the recipient of corporal punishment as a consequence of either bedwetting or bed-soiling, and that this may have caused her chronic vaginal trauma?

The above theory is inconsistent with the available forensic evidence.


.
 
Tober said:
Patsy claiming she didn't know when JonBenet last bathed somehow relates to the crime, but in what way? Why is Patsy distancing herself from JonBenet's last bath, acting as if she has no knowledge of it or association to it?
Click to expand...

Tober,

I'm not certain where you got that, but if Patsy knew when JonBenet last bathed she would likely have supervised the bathing, she is on record as saying so.

Then Patsy could tell the investigators as to how clean genitally JonBenet was, if she applied any medicinal products, what underwear she was wearing prior to her bath, and what underwear she was wearing after being bathed.

All this information would clarify the size-12 underwear issue, and the possible status of the underwear left lying on her bathroom floor?


.
 
Nuisanceposter said:
Were any douching products or equipment, etc, ever taken into evidence? Were any ever found in any of the bathrooms in the Ramsey house, specifically a bathroom other than Patsy's on the third floor (where I would expect items like that to be found)? Did LHP or her predecessor Linda Wilcox ever comment on douche in relation to the Ramseys?
Click to expand...

CK,

Help us out here.:cool:
 
Solace said:
CK,

Help us out here.:cool:
Click to expand...


I was informed of the cororal cleaning. I have never seen where it was specified as douching although that has been implied over and over I have not seen it listed by the ME or douching prodcut taken into evidence. So I cannot swear. cororal cleaning as it was described seems to suggest that. How do you prove why the screaming now?
 
Tober said:
Patsy claiming she didn't know when JonBenet last bathed somehow relates to the crime, but in what way? Why is Patsy distancing herself from JonBenet's last bath, acting as if she has no knowledge of it or association to it?
Click to expand...

If what I've read is correct, JonBenet had been "wiped down" and "cleaned up," including a change of underwear. If Patsy claimed she didn't remember the last time JonBenet bathed, it distances Patsy from that "wiping down" and "clean up." Patsy's saying she wasn't in the bathroom the night of the killing, IMO.
 
I have read in PR's interviews where she states that she does not recall when the last time JBR bathed prior to her death. I thought I read her stating that she did NOT have a bath Christmas Day, with the opening of the gifts, the White's party, etc. And when asked about the previous day (Christmas Eve) she also said she didn't remember. So the earliest possible day for a bath for JBR was the day of the R Chrismas party on Dec.23. (assuming PR is telling the truth). My feeling is that hygiene was fairly lax in the R house. If I had a child that age that constantly wet and soiled herself, whether she wore pull-up diapers or panties, my child would be bathed every day. Especially a little girl, who can get infections from fecal matter contaminating the vaginal area.
 
BOESP said:
If what I've read is correct, JonBenet had been "wiped down" and "cleaned up," including a change of underwear. If Patsy claimed she didn't remember the last time JonBenet bathed, it distances Patsy from that "wiping down" and "clean up." Patsy's saying she wasn't in the bathroom the night of the killing, IMO.
Click to expand...

And???
 
Solace said:
And???
Click to expand...

And ....

evidence shows JonBenet was at least partially bathed recently (like the night of her death) and there probably was evidence in the bathroom connected to the cleaning and/or death and Patsy doesn't want to be connected to any of that evidence and how it got into JonBenet's bathroom where JonBenet was likely wiped down or bathed (partially or fully bathed ... have no idea which).

That's my guess as to why it's important for Patsy not to remember when JonBenet bathed.
 
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