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Thread: The Doe Network, Part 3: Who is Princess Blue?

  1. #26
    sloane is offline "To those who are granted much, much is expected."
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    Hello everyone,
    I only have a few minutes, but I promise I will be more avail. later this week!
    So...WOW!! I never thought the story would be quite this hot! I'm immensely grateful that it is out and in soooo many places. I agree w/ most of you that she sure seems connected to the Houston area, but it doesn't hurt for the story to appear elsewhere. You never know where OTHER ppl. are who may recognize her, be alums, or be able to help in some other way.

    A big THANK YOU!! to all of you are putting in so much time and effort working on the spreadsheets and poring over MP sites. The possibles you have posted are helpful. I will take the time to really look closely at them soon, but for now I can say that Cheatham made me gasp! I see definite facial similarities. Whoever said the hair is off is correct, but that is often the case. Hair can be a tricky part of a facial recon. or reprodux. Oh, and to clear things up, NOOOOO, there WAS NOT any hair at the scene, contrary to what some of the articles are starting to say. I get frustrated at how the media takes liberties w/ what they print. They are stretching some of the facts, at a minimum. RKnowley, I don't blame you for being a little confused!

    more soon,
    Of all sad words of mouth and pen, the saddest are these: It might have been.

  2. #27
    sloane is offline "To those who are granted much, much is expected."
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    Yes, I have already expressed my displeasure, to say the least, at the media outlets who are getting things incorrect. My guess on the Houston Chronicle write-up(s) is that it is the same reporter from the first article and he is pulling some of the old info. from his first article forward, such as the PMI (time of death). Unless there is something he knows that none of the investigators have been told, THERE IS NO FORENSICALLY DETERMINED TOD!! So, I see that one article has been saying the 6 mos. to one year thing again, and another one says up to 2 yrs... aaagghh!What is it that richandfamous says? "Facts, facts, get them straight!"

    I tend to agree with what Lion has been surmising, that it would be closer to the 1990 discovery, rather than further out. Maybe the two years interval IS a good assumption, but that's all that it is. She was out in the open, which means open to the elements, scavenging, etc. And due to the weather conditions in a place like the Houston, coastal area, in my experience, skeletonization can happen quicker than one would think. And we now know that there was no clothing to help protect her. (poor girl!) So that helps speed the process as well. I think it is likely that her death occurred in '88, '89, or early '90, in my experience and opinion, but it is not fact. (CYA! or rather, C my A!)

    I am really hoping that some family members will start coming forward to have their DNA taken, so that comparisons can start being made, and "possibles" ruled out, slowly.

    You guys are awesome in your dedication!
    Of all sad words of mouth and pen, the saddest are these: It might have been.

  3. #28
    sloane is offline "To those who are granted much, much is expected."
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    Quote Originally Posted by LionRun View Post
    Sloane, please check your PM's--they are runningith overith lol.

    Lion
    Got them Lion! Thanks! Time has been of the essence lately. They are cleared out now.
    Of all sad words of mouth and pen, the saddest are these: It might have been.

  4. #29
    sloane is offline "To those who are granted much, much is expected."
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    I'm afraid Miss Munson's teeth are much too beautiful to be Princess Blue's! thank you for posting a "possible", though.

    On that note, can anyone who has more time than I do currently, please contact the "Doe Ntwk." and ask them to update their site?? It is my understanding that they just pull their postings from sites like those from LE or places like the TXMPCH. They have needed to pop back over for months now and see the changes to be sure they are posting proper and current info.,; they still have the Hispanic thing going on...

    TIA TIA TIA
    Of all sad words of mouth and pen, the saddest are these: It might have been.

  5. #30
    sloane is offline "To those who are granted much, much is expected."
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    Credit For Deserving Volunteers

    BTW, YES!!!
    The first online forum the articles about PB are referencing ARE you guys here at WS!! It's time you deserve some credit, even if it doesn't mention WS by name. Then later, in a diff. article, it does mention the SKM site by name, so if ppl. go to that one I'm sure they'll make their way to this one from the links. Great job, everyone! Even though I kow you're not doing it for the credit...

    I feel pretty sure that the investigators keep up with what is being posted on the varying sites.
    Of all sad words of mouth and pen, the saddest are these: It might have been.

  6. #31
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    Hi sleuthers. I tried posting post 57 on Princess Blue part 2, but it blew the margins so I took it out. Edit: It was not this post after all that is blowing the margins. Oh well, I though it was this post. I missed this in the last thread and wanted to comment on 2 possible matches that Sable posted. The matches were suggested to her by people who emailed in regards to Princess' myspace.

    I think Kimberly Norwood would not be a match because she was 2 when she disappeared. Even if she were kept alive until early 1990, which is highly doubtful, she would only have been 13 at TOD. Princess was likely 17-21 or 16-22 if a margin is given.

    Maria De Los Angeles Martinez disappeared after Princess Blue's remains were found so it cannot be her.

    I am sending Kimberly Shawn Cheatham's(WS Princess thread, part 2, post 536) info to Sgt. Coffman, however. She has enough facial features similar to Princess' recon. She disappeared from Dallas, so we don't know how the ring would come into play. But, there could be a connection we don't know about. We also don't know her height in life. It says 4'6" and that could be wrong. 4'6" is possible, but that would mean that she was VERY petite in life.

    We will just keep trying and one of these days we might find a match. '

    Lion

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanie View Post
    I edited down the Morgan Munson page as much as I could, and I have no idea when she went missing, though I spent several hours trying to track it down. I'll check the Houston Chron archives now and see if I can find anything there.
    Lanie
    Good luck, Lanie and thank you for being a part of this!

    Lion

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by sloane View Post
    I'm afraid Miss Munson's teeth are much too beautiful to be Princess Blue's! thank you for posting a "possible", though.

    On that note, can anyone who has more time than I do currently, please contact the "Doe Ntwk." and ask them to update their site?? It is my understanding that they just pull their postings from sites like those from LE or places like the TXMPCH. They have needed to pop back over for months now and see the changes to be sure they are posting proper and current info.,; they still have the Hispanic thing going on...

    TIA TIA TIA
    Hi there sloane! It is so good to see you. Can you perhaps let us know something about Princess' dentals? Does she have crowding or specifically crooked teeth? Does she have many fillings? Does she have missing teeth? Do you know if she had her last molars, if they had been surgically removed or if they never came in? This could help us in finding possible matches.

    I guess I could refer them to the link where the article states that a new forensics team has a new description. Hopefully, they don't have a policy whereby they only print info from legal sites, because I haven't noted that the TX dps site has updated their site either. I hope both sites will be updated.

    Lion

  9. #34
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    Keep up the good work gang! I don't have the time, nor resources to do a lot of sleuthing, but you guys are doing great. I'd say the Kimberly Cheatham one looks promising.
    Last edited by TCMom; 06-12-2007 at 04:12 PM.

  10. #35
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    Hi everyone! So, did they do a DNA analysis that made them change thier minds about her being hispanic and decide that she may be african american and caucasian instead? I have been searching for women listed as biracial or mixed but so far I don't see any that look promising.
    Happy New Years

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by teonspaleprincess View Post
    Hi everyone! So, did they do a DNA analysis that made them change thier minds about her being hispanic and decide that she may be african american and caucasian instead? I have been searching for women listed as biracial or mixed but so far I don't see any that look promising.
    Hi teons. Princess Blue's DNA has been in CODIS for some time. Actually, a top Forensics team just did an examination of Princess' remains at the end of 2006. The original work up was performed by an ME in 1990.

    Although an ME is qualified to determine cause, manner, and TOD for a person who passes shortly before they are found, a complete forensics team is more qualified to determine such things when skeletal remains are found. The ME unfortunately got it wrong when he/she determined Princess to be Caucasian/Hispanic. He/she was correct that Princess was Caucasian with something else. But, the something else was a possibility of mixed race African American ancestry, not Hispanic. Back in 1990 there simply was not enough funds for a complete forensic work up by a full forensics team. Fortunately, funds were available to finally do this a few months ago.

    Again, I think it is best to be open minded concerning her race when looking for a possible match. Princess may have had no African American facial features noticeable to most people when she was alive. Or she may have had such features. The forensics's team's examination did reveal that she had a possibility of mixed race African American ancestry, but notice that they did not classify her as bi-racial.

    She may or may not have had African American features that were noticeable in life. So, we need to pay attention to all possible matches if the basic description, date last seen, and other factors fit.

    I am hoping that we don't overlook a possible match just because the description does not show a girl with African American features or is not listed as bi-racial.

    Lion

  12. #37
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    Overlooking Possibilities

    Lion, you said something about a date being wrong, so it couldn't be her. I posted a link in here somewhere, I don't have time to look it up right now, but there is a thread here in websleuths about a woman who was missing for over 11 years before her body was identified. Her remains were found 5 miles away, and IIRC, after a couple of weeks, but her bf didn't report her missing for 2 or 3 weeks, so the two weren't compared for over 11 years. LE was looking at the missing woman as having disappeared a few days after the body was found.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanie View Post
    Lion, you said something about a date being wrong, so it couldn't be her. I posted a link in here somewhere, I don't have time to look it up right now, but there is a thread here in websleuths about a woman who was missing for over 11 years before her body was identified. Her remains were found 5 miles away, and IIRC, after a couple of weeks, but her bf didn't report her missing for 2 or 3 weeks, so the two weren't compared for over 11 years. LE was looking at the missing woman as having disappeared a few days after the body was found.
    Lanie, you have a very good point. Perhaps we should include certain possible matches if the person who reportedly last saw the victim may also be the POI or possible suspect. And, if the last time she was seen by others(at work, at a club, by her family and other friends, etc..) was prior to the time that a possible match in a UID is discovered, we may want to look further. If someone fits the description like a well fitting glove perhaps we need to research further to see if the date last seen was printed wrong intentionally or unintentionally. Thank you for enlightening me. We sure do not want to miss the right match!

    Lion

  14. #39
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    Danna Lori Dever

    Here's the thread I was talking about.
    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49520

    and another link to this story.
    http://z13.invisionfree.com/Porchlig...943&st=0&#last

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanie View Post
    Here's the thread I was talking about.
    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49520

    and another link to this story.
    http://z13.invisionfree.com/Porchlig...943&st=0&#last
    I agree that is a possibility that something like this happened. Or maybe some other mistake was made in Princess' case. It is also possible that she was never put on any of the major Missing sites making it hard to ID her. Somehow our beloved Princess Blue seems to have fallen through the cracks, and something is missing or she most likely would have been ID'd by now.

    Lion

  16. #41
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    Our richandfamous started a thread on topix about Princess Blue, and it is getting a little attention. Here is the link.

    http://www.topix.net/forum/houston/T...7P158#lastPost

    Lion

  17. #42
    sloane is offline "To those who are granted much, much is expected."
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    Good Morning all!
    (We need a cup of steaming coffee icon!)

    Just to be clear, (Lion's post), the newest forensic anthropological work-up on PB was completed in March, 2007, not last Sept.
    I believe I read that they re-opened the case in Sept. (Perhaps that's from where you pulled that date, Lion?) Which is why I was saying WAAAYY back somewhere that it is amazing to me sometimes all the coincidences in WS' interest in this case happening at the same time as the new for. anth. report, at the same time as the drawings coming out, at the same time as the public latching on to this, etc. This case was DEF. meant to be looked at. Makes you wonder what the deep story really is...? I truly hope we can find out one day!

    Usually a skeleton's ancestral background is not determined by DNA, but rather by what the bones "have to say." Shapes, teeth structure, suture lines, measurements, as well as the "spaces" in the bones - the nasal aperture, eye orbits, foramen magnum, etc. The skull is THE place from which to determine ancestral background firstly, and secondly, the sex. Of course the pelvic bones are number one for determining sex, followed by the skull, then perhaps leg bones.

    Thanks, rich, for starting another thread abut this story. We haven't seen you around here much...hope things are okay? Have you taken your big exam yet? Yikes!

    More later when I have more time. Have a wonderful day sleuthers!
    Of all sad words of mouth and pen, the saddest are these: It might have been.

  18. #43
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    Sloane, do you have any idea approximately how many of the 1975 REL (Houston) Class Alumni were originally contacted/located by LE? Just a ballpark figure? One of the articles stated that LE were able to locate "a member" of the class alumni (I'm guessing they really meant "a number") and that also turned out to be a dead end.
    Last edited by Earthbound Misfit I; 06-13-2007 at 12:52 AM.
    *******************************************
    Princess Blue
    Located September 10, 1990 in Manvel, Texas

    Could Princess Blue be identified soon Princess Blue? Follow us at the link below
    Princess Blue Forum to find out.

    ***************************************
    Kimberly Shawn Cheatham
    Missing from Dallas, Texas since April 8, 1989

    Where is Kimberly Shawn Cheatham?

    ******************************************

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by sloane View Post
    Good Morning all!
    (We need a cup of steaming coffee icon!)

    Just to be clear, (Lion's post), the newest forensic anthropological work-up on PB was completed in March, 2007, not last Sept.
    I believe I read that they re-opened the case in Sept. (Perhaps that's from where you pulled that date, Lion?) Which is why I was saying WAAAYY back somewhere that it is amazing to me sometimes all the coincidences in WS' interest in this case happening at the same time as the new for. anth. report, at the same time as the drawings coming out, at the same time as the public latching on to this, etc. This case was DEF. meant to be looked at. Makes you wonder what the deep story really is...? I truly hope we can find out one day!

    Usually a skeleton's ancestral background is not determined by DNA, but rather by what the bones "have to say." Shapes, teeth structure, suture lines, measurements, as well as the "spaces" in the bones - the nasal aperture, eye orbits, foramen magnum, etc. The skull is THE place from which to determine ancestral background firstly, and secondly, the sex. Of course the pelvic bones are number one for determining sex, followed by the skull, then perhaps leg bones.

    Thanks, rich, for starting another thread abut this story. We haven't seen you around here much...hope things are okay? Have you taken your big exam yet? Yikes!

    More later when I have more time. Have a wonderful day sleuthers!
    Sloane, thank you for correcting my error on when the recent forensic work up was done. I confused the date with when that article came out last year, perhaps when the case was reopened as well. Oops. I always welcome corrections, though. It is import ant for me to get my facts right and not to inadvertently repeat incorrect info.

    I understand that race/ancestry is usually determined by forensic examination to include the factors you describe. Actually, doing it that way rather than relying on DNA would give a more accurate picture of what the person may have looked like in life. And, that is the bottom line.

    Sloane, do you know the general condition of Princess' teeth? I know I asked this before, but with all of the posts perhaps it was overlooked. I know you have been busy, too, so I am asking again in the hopes that you can answer when you have more time. Did she have a lot of cavities? Crowding? Over shot jaw? Missing or chipped teeth? This may be helpful in some cases to make a possible match.

    Have a wonderful rest of the week, and thank you for being here for us.

    Lion

  20. #45
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    Hi friends. I just received an email from Sgt. Coffman regarding a possible match, Kimberley Shawn Cheatham. He said that although, he won't eliminate anyone until someone with a more scientific background tells him to, he does not think she is a match. He said that her height and other characteristics don't match. I know that her height is listed as 4'6", and I explained that we don't know if this is an error or not.

    However, I also had sent in info on Michelle Doherty just 4 days before that. He did not mention her in his reply, today. I do not know if that means anything like he is checking further or that he sooooo doesn't think she is a match that he didn't even mention her. I have no idea.

    Lion

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    At least he is keepng in touch and letting us know updates. I still wish we could get a list of everyone that has been checked and ruled out.
    Happy New Years

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by teonspaleprincess View Post
    At least he is keepng in touch and letting us know updates. I still wish we could get a list of everyone that has been checked and ruled out.
    Yes, teons, I wish that were the case, too. And, like RKnowly asked, who from the 75 grad class was successfully contacted. I have a feeling that very few students were contacted. We will just keep working, for this is a project, and a group of us truly care and are dedicated.

    Lion

  23. #48
    sloane is offline "To those who are granted much, much is expected."
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    drawn without a smile

    Good Morning to all!

    I was catching up on some of the past posts, and I wanted to address #486 and #487 in the P.Blue Part II thread. It won't let me quote it in this Part III, but RKnowley and Lion were asking about facial reproductions done with a smile, showing teeth. It depends on the skill and thoroughness of the forensic artist, of course, as there really is no standard in this field as far as procedure goes; usually if you see a facial reconstruction done with the teeth showing, (the sculpture is smiling), or facial reproduction drawn with a smile, it is because the UID's teeth were present and in good condition. Many times, as Lion has stated, some or almost all of the teeth have fallen out in the field, and been lost. Some investigators are instructed to sift and use metal detectors at the scene of discovery, to "catch" teeth that may have become a bit buried, or may blend in w/ pebbles, soil, etc. But They can only go so far. How do you know when to stop? How deep do you dig? How far out of a radius do you search? At some point they must call off the excavation. Granted, there are def. more thorough investigations than others. I certainly don't know how much effort was put into retrieving every last tooth and phalange of P.Blue, but I was thinking that maybe all her front teeth were not in condition to show in the drawing, so the artist created P. Blue's face with a closed-mouth...??
    Of all sad words of mouth and pen, the saddest are these: It might have been.

  24. #49
    sloane is offline "To those who are granted much, much is expected."
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    Quote Originally Posted by RKnowley View Post
    Sloane, do you have any idea approximately how many of the 1975 REL (Houston) Class Alumni were originally contacted/located by LE? Just a ballpark figure? One of the articles stated that LE were able to locate "a member" of the class alumni (I'm guessing they really meant "a number") and that also turned out to be a dead end.
    Hi there!
    No, I'm sorry...I don't think I can help you guys much on this one.
    I don't know what their attempts have been to contact alums. I can say with fair certainty it has not been ANYTHING on the level of what you guys are doing: making lists of the Yb ppl., getting updated contact info. on each of them, looking up marriages/divorces, etc. I simply cannot see how they would have the time to spend on it THAT thoroughly. Just look at how much time it has taken all of you, and how many of you are there, that have divided up the duties?? You are to be commended...again!!

    What about "icepickPhil"?? Are you still reading, Phil? Can you enlighten us as to how it was you were contacted by LE? Or did you find out about this case through this forum?

    Thanks,
    Of all sad words of mouth and pen, the saddest are these: It might have been.

  25. #50
    sloane is offline "To those who are granted much, much is expected."
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    spreadsheets and letter to go out

    Well, I feel like I may not hold a place to make a suggestion, since I'm not doing any of the legwork on the research to get contact info. on the alums... BUT...
    I was going to suggest that the letters be sent out, in small groups maybe, AS YOU GO ALONG, rather than waiting for all the names on all the blocks of the spreadsheetes to be complete. Or did you guys already have that in mind? That way, at least some of them are already reaching their intended destinations, without having to wait on some names / info. to be found. What do you think?
    Of all sad words of mouth and pen, the saddest are these: It might have been.

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