Page 10 of 14 FirstFirst 1234567891011121314 LastLast
Results 226 to 250 of 337

Thread: Skull fracture question

  1. #226
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    2,360
    Quote Originally Posted by coloradokares View Post
    The doornob!!! I took out my tape measure ( no small accomlishment post stroke and bleeds into the brain ) I am stunned!! With what fore would her head have had to strike to create that damage. Sorry math is not my high suite anymore I tied my own shoes last week though. There is hope for me yet!
    I'm only speculating here CK. If she was jerked around by the collar, shoved against a heavy door and doorknob, then released and she fell to the floor, hitting her head a second time, it could result in injuries consistent with JonBenet's. She could have been released before actually striking the doorknob, which Patsy could rationalize and say to herself that she did not kill JonBenet. JonBenet could have run into the door and fallen on her own and Patsy didn't have a hand on JonBenet when she hit the door and fell. People's minds can do strange things in order to accept a tragic event. Maybe Patsy's only involvement was in failing to call 911????

    It could be any door in the house, but since Thomas thinks it occurred in the bathroom and since no bathroom photos are available, that might suggest the bathroom. The same idea would work for bathroom fixtures if they are shaped like a doorknob, but the height factor was intriguing to me.

    It would be nice to know what type flooring and doors and fixtures were in that bathroom. Again, this is speculation.

    BTW - you are doing great on your recovery!

  2. #227
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    1,393
    Quote Originally Posted by BOESP View Post
    I'm only speculating here CK. If she was jerked around by the collar, shoved against a heavy door and doorknob, then released and she fell to the floor, hitting her head a second time, it could result in injuries consistent with JonBenet's. She could have been released before actually striking the doorknob, which Patsy could rationalize and say to herself that she did not kill JonBenet. JonBenet could have run into the door and fallen on her own and Patsy didn't have a hand on JonBenet when she hit the door and fell. People's minds can do strange things in order to accept a tragic event. Maybe Patsy's only involvement was in failing to call 911????

    It could be any door in the house, but since Thomas thinks it occurred in the bathroom and since no bathroom photos are available, that might suggest the bathroom. The same idea would work for bathroom fixtures if they are shaped like a doorknob, but the height factor was intriguing to me.

    It would be nice to know what type flooring and doors and fixtures were in that bathroom. Again, this is speculation.

    BTW - you are doing great on your recovery!
    I have a picture of the bathroom here somewhere. Not the Post crime scene photos. Let me try to go find it. Then figure out how to get the link to it up. Every day is a new challange for me. The Nero suggested perhaps more time at a facility in Greeley would help.. I am not progressing very well anymore and there was evidence of further TIA's U also have two untreatable aneurisums so they are dangerous but could not create further trouble either way

    It takes me so long to do this typing sometimes it times me out Then I have to start all over. However considering they had enacted my living will I am a bit of a miracle. And my little scooter helps alot. Depression is the big thing for me now. That and silverware and how to bursh my teeth the order to do things in. I walk some with the cane and that was a real accompishment. I am doing really good with the blood clot meds at last. The stint did not stop all the clots. Life is good

  3. #228
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    1,393
    Quote Originally Posted by coloradokares View Post
    I have a picture of the bathroom here somewhere. Not the Post crime scene photos. Let me try to go find it. Then figure out how to get the link to it up. Every day is a new challange for me. The Nero suggested perhaps more time at a facility in Greeley would help.. I am not progressing very well anymore and there was evidence of further TIA's U also have two untreatable aneurisums so they are dangerous but could not create further trouble either way

    It takes me so long to do this typing sometimes it times me out Then I have to start all over. However considering they had enacted my living will I am a bit of a miracle. And my little scooter helps alot. Depression is the big thing for me now. That and silverware and how to bursh my teeth the order to do things in. I walk some with the cane and that was a real accompishment. I am doing really good with the blood clot meds at last. The stint did not stop all the clots. Life is good
    I must have that bathroom on CDROM I know the pictures have been on here before Ames did you save them or put them on favorites..
    We are going boating tommorrow so tgive me some time. They are on here somewere . I got a new computer before my stroke my son did all the data transferring for me, now to find them back.

  4. #229
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    1,393
    Quote Originally Posted by coloradokares View Post
    I must have that bathroom on CDROM I know the pictures have been on here before Ames did you save them or put them on favorites..
    We are going boating tommorrow so tgive me some time. They are on here somewere . I got a new computer before my stroke my son did all the data transferring for me, now to find them back.
    Did you know that if you do a search Under Ramsey that our posts to various forums may come up. Rashomon I just read a bunch of your posts from crime library from yesterday!!

    If you think what you post is only available to this forum my search for a picture of Jon Benets bathroom took me into several posts from Jameson Jayelles and DocG you wouldnt believe it or I would not have. New or old at random . I am rethinking every post I think I have ever made!!

  5. #230
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    In the Federal Witness Protection Program
    Posts
    7,564
    The doorknob theory is interesting...I know I have seen photos of JBR's bathroom- it was after they moved out, and the house had been repainted. All the rooms were painted white. But I don't know if the doorknob can be seen. There are several types. I have French-door handle-type knobs on all my doors because I have severe arthritis and they make it easier for me to open the door than the round type. Obviously, some types of doorknob will be more able to punch a hole in a skull than others. I know this wansn't done- but with today's forensic methods, they could even get skin/hair DNA from the doorknob- provided LE at the time would have even thought of it. Of course, the day she was found, no one even knew there was a skull fracture- they saw the ligature and assumed she had been strangled to death. (Good job, R's! That's just what you wanted them to think!)
    But there is no reason why after that became known that LE couldn't have gone back to the home and done a more thorough search of just what could have done damage like that to a child's skull. Oh, never mind! The DA's office would have never allowed that!
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  6. #231
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    132
    Quote Originally Posted by BOESP View Post
    That will be a real mess.

    There was pressure at the impact point but it is unlikely that would cause a long, wide split unless a second nearly simultaneous injury occurred at or nearly at the same time, causing two fractures to join.

    You might also want to try hitting a coconut with a hammer just enough to cause a depression and fracture. Then put the coconut on the counter and press down with your hand, putting your weight behind it. The fracture will widen and lengthen (or at least it should!!!) because of the relatively high pressure on the coconut (and other reasons but I'm too tired to get into that again tonight ) Then try hitting a second coconut with all your might and see what the hammer does and how it fractures. It is a rather gruesome experiment but it helps understand JonBenet's wounds.
    I'm sorry if this has been mentioned further on in the thread but I've only gotten to here.
    Now, if her head struck a surface hard and bounced slightly, striking it a second time but not as forcefully, could that account for the second smaller fracture?

  7. #232
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    6,418
    Quote Originally Posted by coloradokares View Post
    I must have that bathroom on CDROM I know the pictures have been on here before Ames did you save them or put them on favorites..
    We are going boating tommorrow so tgive me some time. They are on here somewere . I got a new computer before my stroke my son did all the data transferring for me, now to find them back.
    coloradokares,
    I'm not sure how genuine these are:
    http://jameson245_archive.tripod.com/jbrbedroom-A.htm

  8. #233
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    2,360
    Quote Originally Posted by lovebites View Post
    I'm sorry if this has been mentioned further on in the thread but I've only gotten to here.
    Now, if her head struck a surface hard and bounced slightly, striking it a second time but not as forcefully, could that account for the second smaller fracture?
    I would suppose it could account for a smaller fracture. There are so many variables. Someone could have pushed and pulled her into a door (or other object) two, three or more times. That type action might also account for the brain damage similar to shaken-baby syndrome.

    Another idea came to mind since a dumbbell was found in JonBenet's room. She could have fallen on that. She could have been hit with it and fell to the floor, increasing the width and length of the original fracture due to the pressure of the head hitting the floor.

    Either of the above speculations could still fit with Steve Thomas's corporal punishment theory. Like some of the others who post here, I've come to the conclusion that it must mean something when certain photos and statements haven't been made public. There's a reason JonBenet's crime scene bathroom photos are still private.

  9. #234
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    1,393
    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    coloradokares,
    I'm not sure how genuine these are:
    http://jameson245_archive.tripod.com/jbrbedroom-A.htm
    Thanks so much UK Guy When I saved to my favorites it said already saved to favorites. Sure enough they are labled as Jon Benets bedroom and I am searcing everywhere for pics of the bathroom. UG. I dont have a brain that remembers the details anymore. Thank you so much anyway

    Here are the pictures BOESP courtesy of UK Guy Thanks again UK Guy!

  10. #235
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    2,360
    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    coloradokares,
    I'm not sure how genuine these are:
    http://jameson245_archive.tripod.com/jbrbedroom-A.htm
    Thanks, UKGuy! I've never seen those. It will be interesting to study them. It looks smaller than I had imagined. I understand about the caution on being genuine and Jameson states the photos were made a long, long time after JonBenet's death. I couldn't see the doorknob very well but it did appear to be rounded and the floor looked ceramic but who knows what it was like on December 26. I also see other possibilities for injury ... a lot of possibilities! Thanks again.

  11. #236
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    2,360
    Quote Originally Posted by lovebites View Post
    I'm sorry if this has been mentioned further on in the thread but I've only gotten to here.
    Now, if her head struck a surface hard and bounced slightly, striking it a second time but not as forcefully, could that account for the second smaller fracture?
    A second strike, blow, or contact could also account for increasing the length of an already existing fracture.

  12. #237
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    5,555
    Quote Originally Posted by BOESP View Post
    A second strike, blow, or contact could also account for increasing the length of an already existing fracture.
    I wonder if it's possible she was struck with the flashlight,thus incurring the indendation,and part of the fracture,and then a second blow from a push,shove or throw fractures the rest?
    something to ponder:

    When the corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and the mortal have put on immortality, then shall we be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?

    The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
    But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    1 Corinthians 15:54-57

  13. #238
    While reading Patsy's interrogation I came upon something Tom Haney said:

    Tom Haney asked Patsy about a picture of the hallway that was in her camera. In the picture was the wet bar with a red and black scarf on it.

    The picture the police took again of the red and black scarf showed that it had been moved to the hallway table...hanging. Also on the table was a bottle of Windex.

    Could the police think the red and black scarf was initially used to strangle JonBenet with? The Windex to wipe the prints of the flashlight?
    ...We have said to ourselves, look, there is never going to be a victory in this, there is no victory...John Ramsey: 6/24/98

  14. #239
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Ceti Alpha V
    Posts
    11,198
    Interesting...you mean compression of the cervical spine, discs, vertebrae, etc.? Like when someone dives into shallow water and hits the top of their head. Well, we all know nothing was noted on the autopsy. It is ASSUMED the coroner would have looked.
    Yeah, that's what I meant.

    A question for SD,who said he thought she was killed in her room.I'm wondering what leads you to believe that,and what caused the head injury,if it wasn't something in JB's bathroom? You have a lot of insight,thx for anything you can add.
    Well, the cord fibers in the bed were a starting point. That, and the overturned basket of hair ties. What caused the head injury? I seem to remember, perhaps incorrectly, that JB had some heavy furniture in there.
    All posts made by me are MY exclusive property, and are NOT to be used or reproduced without my permission. DAVE SMASH THIEVES!

  15. #240
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    In the Federal Witness Protection Program
    Posts
    7,564
    Quote Originally Posted by Toltec View Post
    While reading Patsy's interrogation I came upon something Tom Haney said:

    Tom Haney asked Patsy about a picture of the hallway that was in her camera. In the picture was the wet bar with a red and black scarf on it.

    The picture the police took again of the red and black scarf showed that it had been moved to the hallway table...hanging. Also on the table was a bottle of Windex.

    Could the police think the red and black scarf was initially used to strangle JonBenet with? The Windex to wipe the prints of the flashlight?

    That is certainly what I would think.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  16. #241
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    In the Federal Witness Protection Program
    Posts
    7,564
    As far as those bathroom pictures, remember they were taken after the Rs moved out and the place had been repainted. I thought I read that the house had been bought by a group of R friends and supporters. It was then completely repainted inside, though I don't think the kitchen and baths were redone. Possibly by one of the subsequent owners. One of them walled off the wineceller.
    Just by looking at that bathroom, I really don't see any surface, including the tile edge of the tub surround, that would punch out a hole like that in a skull. As far as it happening in a fall- you have to think like a physicist for a moment. A child the size of JBR just doesn't weigh enough to hit anyhing in a fall that would cause an impact sufficient to put a hole in her skull. Mass x velocity gives the energy (force) in an impact like that. She'd have to fall from a great distance (like off a roof) or something similar. Not just to kill her, but to make a hole like that in her skull. I just don't feel it was from slamming her into anything. It had to be a whack with the flashlight or something similar. IMHO.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  17. #242
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    2,360
    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    As far as those bathroom pictures, remember they were taken after the Rs moved out and the place had been repainted. I thought I read that the house had been bought by a group of R friends and supporters. It was then completely repainted inside, though I don't think the kitchen and baths were redone. Possibly by one of the subsequent owners. One of them walled off the wineceller.
    Just by looking at that bathroom, I really don't see any surface, including the tile edge of the tub surround, that would punch out a hole like that in a skull. As far as it happening in a fall- you have to think like a physicist for a moment. A child the size of JBR just doesn't weigh enough to hit anyhing in a fall that would cause an impact sufficient to put a hole in her skull. Mass x velocity gives the energy (force) in an impact like that. She'd have to fall from a great distance (like off a roof) or something similar. Not just to kill her, but to make a hole like that in her skull. I just don't feel it was from slamming her into anything. It had to be a whack with the flashlight or something similar. IMHO.
    DeeDee, if JonBenet already had a blow to the head that caused a depression and fracture, it would be possible to fall and the head hit the ceramic floor at the site of the fracture. Such a fall could cause the original fracture to lengthen. It is also possible Patsy fell on top of JonBenet. I certainly respect your ideas and you may very well be right. I just can not see, from a physics standpoint, how a blow to the head with a flashlight that displaced a piece of the cranium and caused an 8.5" fracture that runs from the back of the head to the brow bone could leave the brain tissue relatively unharmed at the point of impact and leave the scalp unbroken.

    I'm assuming if the bathroom has been remodeled they wouldn't have put in a ceramic floor. I may be wrong though and there could have been carpet over the flooring when the Ramseys lived there. There are so many ceramic turns and corners that could have caused that injury in my view. I guess we will never know.

  18. #243
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    132
    Quote Originally Posted by BOESP View Post
    I would suppose it could account for a smaller fracture. There are so many variables. Someone could have pushed and pulled her into a door (or other object) two, three or more times. That type action might also account for the brain damage similar to shaken-baby syndrome.

    Another idea came to mind since a dumbbell was found in JonBenet's room. She could have fallen on that. She could have been hit with it and fell to the floor, increasing the width and length of the original fracture due to the pressure of the head hitting the floor.

    Either of the above speculations could still fit with Steve Thomas's corporal punishment theory. Like some of the others who post here, I've come to the conclusion that it must mean something when certain photos and statements haven't been made public. There's a reason JonBenet's crime scene bathroom photos are still private.

    I also wonder if the crack occurred on the suture line, on a 6 yr olds skull, how much force it would take? Would the suture line provide enough weakness to have made the breaking of the skull easier than we think?

    Just thinking out loud....

  19. #244
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    5,555
    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    As far as those bathroom pictures, remember they were taken after the Rs moved out and the place had been repainted. I thought I read that the house had been bought by a group of R friends and supporters. It was then completely repainted inside, though I don't think the kitchen and baths were redone. Possibly by one of the subsequent owners. One of them walled off the wineceller.

    that was thought to be the case,but someone else posted it was an entertainment area downstairs (tv and all),and the WC was being used for storage.
    Just by looking at that bathroom, I really don't see any surface, including the tile edge of the tub surround, that would punch out a hole like that in a skull. As far as it happening in a fall- you have to think like a physicist for a moment. A child the size of JBR just doesn't weigh enough to hit anyhing in a fall that would cause an impact sufficient to put a hole in her skull. Mass x velocity gives the energy (force) in an impact like that. She'd have to fall from a great distance (like off a roof) or something similar. Not just to kill her, but to make a hole like that in her skull. I just don't feel it was from slamming her into anything. It had to be a whack with the flashlight or something similar. IMHO.
    I wonder that,too.If JB was leaning over,then hitting her w the FL would produce a back of the head injury.perhaps Patsy was leaning over her to clean her,and JB was leaning over, too.
    something to ponder:

    When the corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and the mortal have put on immortality, then shall we be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?

    The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
    But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    1 Corinthians 15:54-57

  20. #245
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    2,360
    Quote Originally Posted by lovebites View Post
    I also wonder if the crack occurred on the suture line, on a 6 yr olds skull, how much force it would take? Would the suture line provide enough weakness to have made the breaking of the skull easier than we think?

    Just thinking out loud....
    Suture lines can separate from injury. Based on JonBenet's autopsy, the depressed area would have been on or near the suture line between the occipital and right parietal region. The fracture that runs from that depression to the right orbital ridge is not described as running concurrently with a suture line.

  21. #246
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    In the Federal Witness Protection Program
    Posts
    7,564
    If PR fell on top of her, there would cartainly be injuries, bruising, etc. that would be seen from that. An adult falling on a child that size could injure, not kill, from that distance. PR was about average height for a woman, right? Not close to 6 feet. She was average weight. And the distance she would fall would be a few feet. To fracture a skull is one thing. To punch out a hole is another. I just can't see it happening from a fall, regardless of what she landed on.
    That flashlight is bigger and heavier than you imagine. I have a slightly smaller one. Believe me, if wielded in anger, it could put a hole in a skull, and if it was a skull covered with hair, it might not break the skin. The light end of the flashlight has rounded, not sharp, edges.
    I also respect your opinions, as I do every person on this forum. After all, someone is bound to be right!
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  22. #247
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    2,360
    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    If PR fell on top of her, there would cartainly be injuries, bruising, etc. that would be seen from that. An adult falling on a child that size could injure, not kill, from that distance. PR was about average height for a woman, right? Not close to 6 feet. She was average weight. And the distance she would fall would be a few feet. To fracture a skull is one thing. To punch out a hole is another. I just can't see it happening from a fall, regardless of what she landed on.
    That flashlight is bigger and heavier than you imagine. I have a slightly smaller one. Believe me, if wielded in anger, it could put a hole in a skull, and if it was a skull covered with hair, it might not break the skin. The light end of the flashlight has rounded, not sharp, edges.
    I also respect your opinions, as I do every person on this forum. After all, someone is bound to be right!
    I've asked a couple times about Patsy's height and weight and no one has responded. I searched for statistics from her Miss West Virginia days trying to find her height but her vital statistics are not listed. Maybe someone will answer.

    If the depression was already there, a second injury such as someone falling on her head could increase the width and length of the fracture particularly if they fell on to a ceramic tile floor or bathtub. Her injury, in my opinion, is more consistent with her hitting something than something hitting her. I re-read some more comments from Steve Thomas and it seems clear he thinks her head was hit on some hard, immoveable object in the bathroom such as the bath tub. The head injury is consistent with that. That's about all I can say unless Boulder releases more evidence.

    We have several Maglites around here so I'm familiar with how heavy the bigger professional models can be. I don't doubt they could make a depression. I don't doubt that one striking blow would create a depression, but I doubt it could create an 8.5 inch fracture and not mutilate and or pulverize the brain tissue directly below the point of impact, creating massive tissue damage, not just 7 cc of blood (or whatever it was at the impact point). There seem to be two injuries here: a depression and an extremely lengthy fracture accompanied by internal contusions/bruising all along the fracture line.

  23. #248
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    In the Federal Witness Protection Program
    Posts
    7,564
    It is just so frustrating that the coroner did not probe into these very kind of things...were the hole and fractures caused by two separate events, or did the fractures spread out from the hole?
    Some of you might not be aware if this- I wasn't- but not all coroners are medical doctors. Coroner can be an appointed position, and part of the LE system of the municipality. Only Medical Examiners have medical degrees. If a coroner is called "Dr"., that may represent a PHD and not an MD. A coroner usually focuses on criminal causes of death. A coroner can pronounce someone dead and sign a death certifcate.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  24. #249
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    1,649
    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    Well, the cord fibers in the bed were a starting point. That, and the overturned basket of hair ties. What caused the head injury? I seem to remember, perhaps incorrectly, that JB had some heavy furniture in there.
    But does there exist an official source for the nylon cord fibers being found in her room? I know a rope was found John Andrew's room, but it was a sturdy hemp rope. Go to page 4 in the 'photos' section of this link. The picture in the bottom right-hand corner shows the rope:

    http://www.realsundancekid.com/

    I believe the head injury occurred upstairs, either in her room or in her bathroom, and the ligature/garrote staged scene was done in the basement.

    jmo
    Last edited by rashomon; 09-04-2007 at 09:01 AM.

  25. #250
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    1,649
    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    rashomon,

    Then it would be an accident and the parent would dial 911 for AE.

    Maybe she was slammed, but only after being manually strangled.

    If all that happened was Patsy becoming enraged with JonBenet, and unintentionally slamming her against some hard surface, why no call to the emergency services, why no medical assistance, they had JonBenet to hospital fast when Burke whacked with the golf club.

    What unintentional slamming requires unheard of staging in a child homicide, and a sexual assault cleaned up, and hidden from view?

    I think a furious Patsy intentionally slammed JonBenet against hard surface, therefore it was no accident imo.

Page 10 of 14 FirstFirst 1234567891011121314 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •