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  1. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by rashomon View Post
    I think it would depend on the angle from which she was struck. If she was struck sideways and not from above, the neck may not have suffered any damage.

    BOESP: I have a question about the low velocity/high pressure type of wound you mentioned. Suppose JonBenet was struck against a blunt object, wouldn't a lot of velocity be required to produce that horrific injury which not only punched out a piece of skull but virtually split her skull in two halves? I'm just trying to visualize what exactly 'low' velocity would mean. When I think of an enraged parent yanking JonBenet around, finally slamming her against a flat surface, I can imagine she would have hit this surface with considerable velocity. Just my layperson's speculation though - for I really don't know much about physics.
    I don't either Rash,I'm assuming you took physics Boesp? I've taken microbiology and chemistry,and some medical related classes,so some of the things in the case make sense to me,although I wish I'd taken physics now,too.
    something to ponder:

    When the corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and the mortal have put on immortality, then shall we be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?

    The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
    But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    1 Corinthians 15:54-57


  2. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMO8778 View Post
    but would there be compression if her head was tilted to the side,or slightly backwards? I tend to think Patsy had ahold of her shirt collar,twisting it and strangling her at the same time her head was struck,even if it was struck against an object in the bathroom.IOW,I see it as all occuring at the same time,that is IF she wasn't struck through a pillow or something to soften the blow..b/c if she was lying down when the blow was delivered,I don't think there would be compression damage either.
    My guess would be there possibly could be separation of the cervical vertebrae but not compression, under the condition you mention above. Based on my personal theory about the scene, I can't see her cervical spine being damaged but I'm open to other ideas, especially if new evidence is ever released.

    I agree with your view about the shirt collar. I've wondered if Patsy could have fallen on JonBenet (maybe slipped on a rug, lost her balance, and so on). Maybe JonBenet fell in the bathtub??? Patsy might have momentarily lost control and even purposely slammed her head against something, but I'm not partial to that idea (it just doesn't seem in character to me). There are just many scenes that come to mind. Don't forget, too, that there was brain damage described in the autopsy that is consistent with "shaken baby syndrome."

    The strangulation could have been staging or it could have been a mercy killing. Concerning the strangulation, proving intent in this case would be a problem in my opinion. I can't decide about that but something must have suggested this could be a Murder One charge since Fuhrman and Thomas talked about the "aha" moment they believed suggested Murder One. I'm not sure how you could prove Patsy (or anyone who did this) did it knowingly with malice aforethought. Maybe Colorado has some law that allows a Murder One charge because of the age of the child or other factor.
    Last edited by BOESP; 08-29-2007 at 05:10 PM.


  3. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMO8778 View Post
    I'm inclined to agree w/ you,esp. from the position of the wound,that indentation at the back of her head appearing to be from being pushed or shoved,or perhaps thrown into something,I just wonder what caused that.
    Solace pointed out something (I think she said she had some experience w/ her son being injured by someone), and that led to her thinking that large circular type mark on the front of JB's neck was a thumb print.That sounds very logical to me.Dr Spitz says she was manually strangled by a shirt collar,so if Patsy had her collar twisted,her thumb could have been there at the time,and it could have left the mark,occurring as she was pushed or shoved into something..maybe it would take that much force to leave such a mark? I don't know.
    In PMPT,it says her body was tented and a glue type substance was sprayed on to check for fingerprints..and they only found one.But I don't think it says who's or where it was.Also...why no other prints? she must have been wiped down pretty well.no intruder would have done that,he'd have been in too much of a hurry to get out of the house.
    The only thing I question is the WHY of it..was it really a soiling issue that set her off,and was it really unintentional? Was JR caught molesting her and that set her off? He did try to account for his underwear fibers possibly being in JB's room in DOI (IMO),although that could have come from an incident prior to the night of the murder.I do tend to think he was molesting her.
    And I also wonder if he was the one who did the ligature strangulation.I think he made the garrote and tied the knot,and did the wrist ligatures.If so,then he's just as guilty,unless he thought she was already dead? I think the vag. wound was done by him as staging,although I think it's possible she was molested prior to that as well,only no injury occurred at that time.JMO.
    I think Solace could be right about that and the thumb print would also fit with the theory about the round abrasions being caused by Patsy's rings (although some believe they are stun gun marks).

    If they fumed her body and only found one print, I'm not sure it would include/exclude much. Did you mean the naked body or the body with clothing on it?

    Do you recall off the top of your head how many of John's shirt fibers were found on JonBenet? If Patsy had on the clothes she wore to the Whites, I would expect her to have some of John's fibers on her so maybe secondary transfer could account for that. I don't recall where I read about John's fibers being on JonBenet but knowing the number might help. I also looked for the underwear fiber statement the other day and I can only find John mentioning it in DOI, saying he got down on his hands and knees to look under JonBenet's bed, hoping she was hiding there.

    I've wondered about John's part in the staging too. I sometimes wonder about his shirt fibers in JonBenet's panties but still think they could have been shed from Patsy. I guess it could be vice versa too -- Patsy's fibers could have shed from John except only Patsy's fibers were found UNDER the tape on her mouth.


  4. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMO8778 View Post
    DOI,P. 13

    For the first time I am aware that I have been racing around the house in my underwear.I hurry back to the third floor bedroom to grab my clothes.I stop in JonBenet's room and look under the bed to make sure she isn't there.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

    the book has several mentions of things JR is trying to account for,IMO.like when he said he checked the large walk in fridge..he's trying to account for his fresh prints being on it,IMO.it's the same thing he was doing with the window in the basement when he said he found it open and he closed it.(but didn't report it to anyone).he also mentions the binoculars,and Patsy talks about how they were worried about how their room at the Stine's might be bugged,and so if it was,all anyone could have heard was the white noise machine Susan had put in there. (yea,right).they were apparently worried someone overheard something.
    I posted all these quotes on another thread recently,I'm not sure which one though.

    Incredible. If I had not read it, I would not have believed it.

    This is one of the reasons I have a hard time finishing it.


  5. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOESP View Post
    I think Solace could be right about that and the thumb print would also fit with the theory about the round abrasions being caused by Patsy's rings (although some believe they are stun gun marks).

    If they fumed her body and only found one print, I'm not sure it would include/exclude much. Did you mean the naked body or the body with clothing on it?

    Do you recall off the top of your head how many of John's shirt fibers were found on JonBenet? If Patsy had on the clothes she wore to the Whites, I would expect her to have some of John's fibers on her so maybe secondary transfer could account for that. I don't recall where I read about John's fibers being on JonBenet but knowing the number might help. I also looked for the underwear fiber statement the other day and I can only find John mentioning it in DOI, saying he got down on his hands and knees to look under JonBenet's bed, hoping she was hiding there.

    I've wondered about John's part in the staging too. I sometimes wonder about his shirt fibers in JonBenet's panties but still think they could have been shed from Patsy. I guess it could be vice versa too -- Patsy's fibers could have shed from John except only Patsy's fibers were found UNDER the tape on her mouth.
    So what do you think, was there sexual abuse going on?


  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solace View Post
    Incredible. If I had not read it, I would not have believed it.

    This is one of the reasons I have a hard time finishing it.
    Solace,
    I'm having trouble finishing the book as well. I got it last summer at the flea market for $2 (hardcover).
    It should be labeled "fiction".


  7. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by rashomon View Post
    I think it would depend on the angle from which she was struck. If she was struck sideways and not from above, the neck may not have suffered any damage.

    BOESP: I have a question about the low velocity/high pressure type of wound you mentioned. Suppose JonBenet was struck against a blunt object, wouldn't a lot of velocity be required to produce that horrific injury which not only punched out a piece of skull but virtually split her skull in two halves? I'm just trying to visualize what exactly 'low' velocity would mean. When I think of an enraged parent yanking JonBenet around, finally slamming her against a flat surface, I can imagine she would have hit this surface with considerable velocity. Just my layperson's speculation though - for I really don't know much about physics.
    Hi Rash,

    No doubt, it was a blunt object since, among other things, the scalp wasn't broken. I suppose the head of a Maglite could, at the correct angle, also be considered blunt just like contact with the floor or a heavy bathtub, etc. would be blunt.

    The easiest way to explain what I mean about low-velocity/high-pressure is to think of a bullet wound. That's high velocity. The force of the bullet if applied equally over the area of the skull would be relatively low-pressure. The major damage is at the point of impact and to the underlying tissue (damage would also depend on the bullet caliber and mass, but ignore that factor in this explanation). Because of the high velocity, the weapon (a bullet in this case) also does a great deal of internal damage under the point of impact.

    Low velocity would include, perhaps, a child falling or even pushing or shaking the child's head around, forcing it into another object. It is a relatively slow-speed method of inflicting damage. The comminuted fracture on JonBenet shows evidence of this low-velocity type event. More energy was dispersed as shown by the egg-shell fracturing fracture of the skull because of low velocity and high pressure than what is seen in the low-pressure bullet example above. The egg shell fracture could also extend in a linear fashion as in JonBenet's cranium. However, it is speed and pressure that would cause the distance the fracture traveled and the width of the fracture. In my opinion, some high pressure (or fairly high) would be needed to split the cranium to the degree and length that JonBenet's is split.

    A relatively high-velocity wound with low pressure, such as swinging a golf club, would continue the damage down into the brain tissue. It likely would create a comminuted fracture area and a shorter linear fracture because the remainder of energy would likely go deep below the striking point (like a bullet) instead of traveling a great distance as illustrated by the lengthy and relatively wide fracture that extends nearly to JonBenet's right eye socket.

    Of course, if there were two simultaneous or nearly simultaneous skull injuries, it is possible the two (or more) fractures "met" and gave the illusion of a one-blow 8.5" fracture.

    JonBenet's scalp is not lacerated at the point of impact, the fracture widens, the fracture is 8.5" long. All that suggests, to me, that a low-velocity/high-pressure injury occurred.
    Last edited by BOESP; 08-29-2007 at 05:23 PM.


  8. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solace View Post
    So what do you think, was there sexual abuse going on?
    I think JonBenet was sexually abused because JonBenet showed classical symptoms of sexual abuse and the autopsy indicated it but I haven't decided yet if it was for personal gratification. I think for gratification is entirely possible. I think it's equally possibly Patsy could have been doing some rough cleaning on JonBenet. Thirdly, I think both things could have been happening and maybe Patsy didn't know about the gratification abuse. John may not have known about either type. May I be a Fence Sitter on this one?


  9. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOESP View Post
    I think JonBenet was sexually abused because JonBenet showed classical symptoms of sexual abuse and the autopsy indicated it but I haven't decided yet if it was for personal gratification. I think for gratification is entirely possible. I think it's equally possibly Patsy could have been doing some rough cleaning on JonBenet. Thirdly, I think both things could have been happening and maybe Patsy didn't know about the gratification abuse. John may not have known about either type. May I be a Fence Sitter on this one?
    The fence gets uncomfortable and I warn you its a heavy built picket type with splinters galore. However climb on up and have a seat by me and many others, your in great company.


  10. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOESP View Post
    Hi Rash,

    No doubt, it was a blunt object, since the scalp wasn't broken. I suppose the head of a Maglite could, at the correct angle, also be considered blunt, just like contact with the floor or a heavy bathtub, etc. would be blunt.

    The easiest way to explain what I mean about low-velocity/high-pressure is to think of a bullet wound. That's high velocity. The force of the bullet if applied equally over the area of the skull would be relatively low-pressure. The major damage is at the point of impact and to the underlying tissue (damage would also depend on the bullet caliber and mass, but ignore that factor in this explanation). Because of the high velocity, the weapon (a bullet in this case) also does a great deal of internal damage under the point of impact.

    Low velocity would include, perhaps, a child falling or even pushing or shaking the child's head around, forcing it into another object. It is a relatively slow-speed method of inflicting damage. The comminuted fracture on JonBenet shows evidence of this low-velocity type event. More energy was dispersed as shown by the egg-shell fracturing of the skull because of high pressure than what is seen in the low-pressure bullet example above. The egg shell fracture could also extend in a linear fashion as in JonBenet's cranium. However, it is speed and pressure that would cause the distance the fracture traveled and the width of the fracture. In my opinion, some high pressure (or fairly high) would be needed to split the cranium to the degree and length that JonBenet's is split.

    A relatively high-velocity wound with low pressure, such as swinging a golf club, would continue the damage down into the brain tissue. It would and could create a comminuted area and a fracture but the remainder of energy would likely go deep below the striking point (like a bullet) instead of traveling a great distance as illustrated by the lengthy and relatively wide fracture that extends nearly to JonBenet's right eye socket.

    Of course, if there were two simultaneous or nearly simultaneous skull injuries, it is possible the two (or more) fractures "met" and gave the illusion of a one-blow 8.5" fracture.

    JonBenet's scalp is not lacerated at the point of impact, the fracture widens, the fracture is 8.5" long. All that suggests, to me, that a low-velocity/high-pressure injury occurred.
    BOESP,
    I'm not certain what you are trying to say here. Pressure is a specific force measured over a particular area say pounds per square inch.

    A measure of the motion of the object that struck JonBenet would be its momentum which is the objects mass multiplied by its velocity.

    This allows for different objects travelling at the same speed to impart the same amount of energy on impact.

    The reason for the latter sentence is that unlike a bullet the person who whacked JonBenet would have his/her velocity limited by their human physique.

    The potential energy imparted to JonBenet's skull could be approximated by working out its kinetic energy, and allowing for residual energy loss.

    In physics momentum is conserved so in a head-on collision you can work out the final velocities of both objects, this can allow for a stationary body, two moving bodies etc.

    JonBenet's head injury I'll assume was not a head-on collision, neither was it inelastic which is where the two bodies stick together, I reckon it was an example of a multi-dimensional collision e.g. she was rooted in one position, and the blow struck was from an indirect or oblique angle, so the varying components, or momenta, can be separated and resolved to arrive the final momentum.

    The bottom line is that the velocity of an object delivered by a human is going to be limited by default, so comparisons with bullets are misleading, it will be the weight of the object that will be critical, so hitting a child with a spoon which may be heavier that a bullet, will not do the same damage as a maglite or a golf-club, because they weigh more, the other critical parameter will be the angle of contact, some angles impart less energy than others, consider a boxer punching his opponent's face, different angled blows are not as powerful, e.g. in general same mass, same velocity, different angle.


    So the maglite or a baseball bat could have delivered the injuries to JonBenet's skull.

    Also another feature of interest is height, in general, when a child falls down and is injured, it is the height they fall from that is important, not discounting whether they land on their arm or back, or head etc.

    So the vast majority of domestic accidents presented as AE, involving children, present a range of injuries limited by the domestic circumstances.

    JonBenet's head injury is classified as serious e.g. life threatening, she had a linear fracture, various non-linear fractures, subarachnoid, and subdural bleeding, linear contusions on her right hemisphere, and small contusions on the tips of her temporal lobes, as if she had been violently shaken?

    Put simply the severity and variety of JonBenet's head injuries rule out a domestic accident as the cause. Someone deliberately inflicted those head injuries, more than likely because they wanted Jonbenet dead!


  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOESP View Post
    I think JonBenet was sexually abused because JonBenet showed classical symptoms of sexual abuse and the autopsy indicated it but I haven't decided yet if it was for personal gratification. I think for gratification is entirely possible. I think it's equally possibly Patsy could have been doing some rough cleaning on JonBenet. Thirdly, I think both things could have been happening and maybe Patsy didn't know about the gratification abuse. John may not have known about either type. May I be a Fence Sitter on this one?
    BOESP,

    How could Patsy who you suggest was rough cleaning not notice any changes in JonBenet's genitalia?

    Same applies to John if you speculate him as JonBenet's molester?

    It appears to me, however well you balance yourself on the fence, that not only were both parents aware that JonBenet was being abused, they were both involved in the staging, and afterwards both defended each other, so they never sat on any fence!

    .


  12. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    BOESP,
    I'm not certain what you are trying to say here. Pressure is a specific force measured over a particular area say pounds per square inch.

    A measure of the motion of the object that struck JonBenet would be its momentum which is the objects mass multiplied by its velocity.

    This allows for different objects travelling at the same speed to impart the same amount of energy on impact.

    The reason for the latter sentence is that unlike a bullet the person who whacked JonBenet would have his/her velocity limited by their human physique.

    The potential energy imparted to JonBenet's skull could be approximated by working out its kinetic energy, and allowing for residual energy loss.

    In physics momentum is conserved so in a head-on collision you can work out the final velocities of both objects, this can allow for a stationary body, two moving bodies etc.

    JonBenet's head injury I'll assume was not a head-on collision, neither was it inelastic which is where the two bodies stick together, I reckon it was an example of a multi-dimensional collision e.g. she was rooted in one position, and the blow struck was from an indirect or oblique angle, so the varying components, or momenta, can be separated and resolved to arrive the final momentum.

    The bottom line is that the velocity of an object delivered by a human is going to be limited by default, so comparisons with bullets are misleading, it will be the weight of the object that will be critical, so hitting a child with a spoon which may be heavier that a bullet, will not do the same damage as a maglite or a golf-club, because they weigh more, the other critical parameter will be the angle of contact, some angles impart less energy than others, consider a boxer punching his opponent's face, different angled blows are not as powerful, e.g. in general same mass, same velocity, different angle.


    So the maglite or a baseball bat could have delivered the injuries to JonBenet's skull.

    Also another feature of interest is height, in general, when a child falls down and is injured, it is the height they fall from that is important, not discounting whether they land on their arm or back, or head etc.

    So the vast majority of domestic accidents presented as AE, involving children, present a range of injuries limited by the domestic circumstances.

    JonBenet's head injury is classified as serious e.g. life threatening, she had a linear fracture, various non-linear fractures, subarachnoid, and subdural bleeding, linear contusions on her right hemisphere, and small contusions on the tips of her temporal lobes, as if she had been violently shaken?

    Put simply the severity and variety of JonBenet's head injuries rule out a domestic accident as the cause. Someone deliberately inflicted those head injuries, more than likely because they wanted Jonbenet dead!
    It's impossible to pinpoint every possible detail or variance for a given situation and I didn't try to do that in my response to Rash's question. I also hope you'll pardon me for not giving a line-by-line reply to your above response. I appreciate your additional information but I stand by my opinion and I do not agree that "Put simply the severity and variety of JonBenet's head injuries rule out a domestic accident as the cause." Domestic homicide can be accidental in nature without calling the specific event(s) accidents; for example, that is what manslaughter charges and vehicular homicide are for in many states. I've made it clear in other posts that I am undecided about the full story on the ligature strangulation but I feel strongly about the head wounds.

    I might agree with the baseball bat theory you gave but you would need to prove where that event occurred, that there was plenty of swinging room for a person of the correct size you have implied, and that the tip of the bat is what hit JonBenet. I'd think the blow would have to be delivered by a point lower on the bat than on the tip to fit your scenario and to account for the 8.5" fracture. If true, I don't see how a lower point on the bat could make the depression in JonBenet's skull.

    Neither of our opinions is evidence so I'm sticking to blunt-force trauma of a low-velocity/high-pressure nature unless more evidence turns up.


  13. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    BOESP,

    How could Patsy who you suggest was rough cleaning not notice any changes in JonBenet's genitalia?

    Same applies to John if you speculate him as JonBenet's molester?

    It appears to me, however well you balance yourself on the fence, that not only were both parents aware that JonBenet was being abused, they were both involved in the staging, and afterwards both defended each other, so they never sat on any fence!

    .
    Unless Patsy or John was using a speculum and a light I doubt either one was examining JonBenet's internal genitalia. Even Dr. Beuf stated he'd never done an internal exam, so I'd say that also explains why he never noticed it either.

    By the way, I didn't say Patsy WAS rough-cleaning. I was offering possibilities and not statements of fact.


  14. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOESP View Post
    It's impossible to pinpoint every possible detail or variance for a given situation and I didn't try to do that in my response to Rash's question. I also hope you'll pardon me for not giving a line-by-line reply to your above response. I appreciate your additional information but I stand by my opinion and I do not agree that "Put simply the severity and variety of JonBenet's head injuries rule out a domestic accident as the cause." Domestic homicide can be accidental in nature without calling the specific event(s) accidents; for example, that is what manslaughter charges and vehicular homicide are for in many states. I've made it clear in other posts that I am undecided about the full story on the ligature strangulation but I feel strongly about the head wounds.

    I might agree with the baseball bat theory you gave but you would need to prove where that event occurred, that there was plenty of swinging room for a person of the correct size you have implied, and that the tip of the bat is what hit JonBenet. I'd think the blow would have to be delivered by a point lower on the bat than on the tip to fit your scenario and to account for the 8.5" fracture. If true, I don't see how a lower point on the bat could make the depression in JonBenet's skull.

    Neither of our opinions is evidence so I'm sticking to blunt-force trauma of a low-velocity/high-pressure nature unless more evidence turns up.
    BOESP,
    I do not agree that "Put simply the severity and variety of JonBenet's head injuries rule out a domestic accident as the cause." Domestic homicide can be accidental in nature without calling the specific event(s) accidents;
    Not agreeing may offer the possibility of a domestic homicide being accidental in nature, but that was not what I was debating, what I was outlining is that the vast majority of domestic accidents presented to AE do not display the range of serious injuries that JonBenet had, they may be concussed, suffer subscapular bleeding, exhibit hairline fractures etc etc, but certainly not linear and non-linear fractures, bleeding inside the skull.

    The severity of JonBenet's skull injuries tell you they were not accidental, someone deliberately whacked JonBenet on the head with the intention of killing her.

    You do not accidently fall in a house and cause multiple fractures on the top of your head which is then staged as a ransom kidnapping complete with a cleaned up sexual assault.

    Neither of our opinions is evidence so I'm sticking to blunt-force trauma of a low-velocity/high-pressure nature unless more evidence turns up.
    Humans relative to bullets will always deliver low velocities. What has high pressure to do with JonBenet's death?

    .


  15. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOESP View Post
    Unless Patsy or John was using a speculum and a light I doubt either one was examining JonBenet's internal genitalia. Even Dr. Beuf stated he'd never done an internal exam, so I'd say that also explains why he never noticed it either.

    By the way, I didn't say Patsy WAS rough-cleaning. I was offering possibilities and not statements of fact.
    BOESP,
    I never asked you what instruments might help to look for signs of abuse, or who never ever looked for it, or if you were making statements of fact.

    Steve Thomas' Corporal Cleansing or Toilet Rage theories are inconsistent and no evidence is offered to back them up.

    .


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