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  1. #1
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    Why were JB's arms over her head?

    I don't know how to do a poll,so I'll just ask the question,why do you think JB was found with her arms over her head?
    I do rule out stun guns and intruders.So for myself,that leaves the options of: 1-she was trying to protect herself from the head blow,and went into rigor before she could be staged as if an intruder did it..i.e.-arms tied in front of her.Or 2-it was staged to be a sexual assault,ligatures included,and her arms were placed over her head on purpose.3-her shirt was changed after death, her arms were left over her head after changing it (when pulling her arms through the sleeves),and she went into rigor before the staging could be completed.
    Perhaps the R's had washed what they wanted to stage her with,(so it would be clean,none of their dna on it,just as was the deal w. the new underwear,IMO),and while waiting the washer and dryer to finish (and possibly writing the RN during that time),she went into rigor.
    I'm guessing it would be hard to carry her down the stairs with her arms over her head..but then greenery was found in her hair...was it from being carried down the stairs, (arms above her head would make that unlikely) or did it come from somewhere else? So maybe that's a good clue,if it can be determined where the greenery in her hair came from.Either she did not have her arms above her head when being carried down the stairs,or it came from the basement or other area of the house.any thoughts?
    something to ponder:

    When the corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and the mortal have put on immortality, then shall we be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?

    The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
    But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    1 Corinthians 15:54-57

  2. #2
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    You mean the way her arms are positioned in the autopsy photo?

    I think that is a natural position for a child lying on their side. If JonBenet was rolled onto her side so her hands could be tied, then the person tying her hands wouldn't have to look into her face.

    I believe it was thought the cord was tied around her neck from behind. This could have been done while JonBenet was on her side. While she is in that position, her hands are also tied.

    I think the basement had been quiet for some time before rigor set in.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert18 View Post
    You mean the way her arms are positioned in the autopsy photo?
    yes

    I think that is a natural position for a child lying on their side. If JonBenet was rolled onto her side so her hands could be tied, then the person tying her hands wouldn't have to look into her face.
    but it was also,at least in the end,staged to be a KN...so in that case,it seems more likely her arms would have been tied down in front of her,wrists crossed,to make it more believeable.that could be done without looking into her face.
    my best guess is that her arms were stuck in that position by the time they were tied.in that case,there would have been a lapse of time between the ligature strangulation and the tying of her wrists.It seems someone wasn't sure or changed their minds about how she was to be staged.
    something to ponder:

    When the corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and the mortal have put on immortality, then shall we be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?

    The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
    But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    1 Corinthians 15:54-57

  4. #4
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    There are no full view photos of JBR after death that we have been able to see, but there are one or two photos that show partial views of her arms. One, from ACandyRose, shows the body of JBR "in situ". She is dressed in the white Gap shirt, lying on her side, and the cord can be seen. Her ams seem to be out in front of her, bent at the elbow at 90 degree angles at chest level, not straight out in front, clearly stiff with rigor. In that photo, the R living room rug can be seen under her. The coroner's ruler appears in the photo. Her disheveled hair is shown also. She may have been turned on her side for the crime scene photos, which may have been taken showing the body from various angles or may simply show the way the body was placed on the floor.
    In the drawing, which is supposed to duplicate how the body looked when found, she is shown on her back, arms straight up over her head.
    In one photo on the autopsy table, she is shown on her stomach, her bare shoulder showing a bruise, her arms seem to be under her at that point, so rigor had passed off by then. In the PMPT movie, she is shown on the autopsy table, both clothed and unclothed, with arms straight down at her sides, rigor having passed at that point. (because of the open mouth, too), though we cannot take the PMPT movie as 100% accurate.
    I've always been intrigued by the appearance of her hair in those photos. It looks matted and messy, "bed-head" in a way. Yet I do not believe she slept at all that night (except the peaceful sleep of death). So how/why did her hair get so messed up, especially if it was put in 2 ponytails? Was there a struggle of that magnitude, perhaps with her mother, with hairpulling involved? Was it the result of pulling a tight-fitting turtleneck over her head? Was she dragged by the arms along the basement rug?

    As far as the greens in her hair, remember that in addition to the garland on the stair rails, the basement rooms, including the wineceller where she was found, were all used for storage of artificial Christmas trees and decorations. That greenery in her hair could have come from ANY of those basement floors. I feel it actually DID get tangled in her hair from lying on the basement floor. I've never felt she was carried down the stairs. I recall the mention of a small bare footprint, the size of a small child's foot, in the powdery mold of the wineceller floor. I believe she was alive (and standing) at some point in that room. Unfortunately, footprints, like fingerprints, cannot be "dated". They can be linked to a person only in view of their possibility of being in a specific place at a specific time, such as a murder suspect's prints being found in a victim's home, car, etc.
    I do not think this was a room JBR played it. The wooden latch (that infamously prevented Officer French from opening the wineceller door) was too high for her to reach, though there were (obviously) chairs down there. It was creepy and dirty, I just don't think she'd have gone in there. And not barefoot. If she had been playing in the basement and gone into that room, she'd have had shoes on.
    That's the "catch" with some forensic evidence. A parent's clothing fibers on a dead child's clothes prove nothing. BUT a parent's fibers entwined in a dead child's GARROTTE cord and blood-stained panties- that's another matter. Parent's fibers on the clothing the child wore when the body was found (and the parents claim to have NOT dressed her in those clothes) mean that parent is lying about the last time they saw their child, dead OR alive.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    There are no full view photos of JBR after death that we have been able to see, but there are one or two photos that show partial views of her arms. One, from ACandyRose, shows the body of JBR "in situ". She is dressed in the white Gap shirt, lying on her side, and the cord can be seen. Her ams seem to be out in front of her, bent at the elbow at 90 degree angles at chest level, not straight out in front, clearly stiff with rigor. In that photo, the R living room rug can be seen under her. The coroner's ruler appears in the photo. Her disheveled hair is shown also. She may have been turned on her side for the crime scene photos, which may have been taken showing the body from various angles or may simply show the way the body was placed on the floor.
    In the drawing, which is supposed to duplicate how the body looked when found, she is shown on her back, arms straight up over her head.
    In one photo on the autopsy table, she is shown on her stomach, her bare shoulder showing a bruise, her arms seem to be under her at that point, so rigor had passed off by then. In the PMPT movie, she is shown on the autopsy table, both clothed and unclothed, with arms straight down at her sides, rigor having passed at that point. (because of the open mouth, too), though we cannot take the PMPT movie as 100% accurate.
    I've always been intrigued by the appearance of her hair in those photos. It looks matted and messy, "bed-head" in a way. Yet I do not believe she slept at all that night (except the peaceful sleep of death). So how/why did her hair get so messed up, especially if it was put in 2 ponytails? Was there a struggle of that magnitude, perhaps with her mother, with hairpulling involved? Was it the result of pulling a tight-fitting turtleneck over her head? Was she dragged by the arms along the basement rug?

    As far as the greens in her hair, remember that in addition to the garland on the stair rails, the basement rooms, including the wineceller where she was found, were all used for storage of artificial Christmas trees and decorations. That greenery in her hair could have come from ANY of those basement floors. I feel it actually DID get tangled in her hair from lying on the basement floor. I've never felt she was carried down the stairs. I recall the mention of a small bare footprint, the size of a small child's foot, in the powdery mold of the wineceller floor. I believe she was alive (and standing) at some point in that room. Unfortunately, footprints, like fingerprints, cannot be "dated". They can be linked to a person only in view of their possibility of being in a specific place at a specific time, such as a murder suspect's prints being found in a victim's home, car, etc.
    I do not think this was a room JBR played it. The wooden latch (that infamously prevented Officer French from opening the wineceller door) was too high for her to reach, though there were (obviously) chairs down there. It was creepy and dirty, I just don't think she'd have gone in there. And not barefoot. If she had been playing in the basement and gone into that room, she'd have had shoes on.
    That's the "catch" with some forensic evidence. A parent's clothing fibers on a dead child's clothes prove nothing. BUT a parent's fibers entwined in a dead child's GARROTTE cord and blood-stained panties- that's another matter. Parent's fibers on the clothing the child wore when the body was found (and the parents claim to have NOT dressed her in those clothes) mean that parent is lying about the last time they saw their child, dead OR alive.
    Great points DeeDee.If there was a small child's footprint in the wine cellar, that means there would be the same mold on the bottom of Jon Benet's foot. If officials found the same mold on the bottom of her bare foot, that means she indeed was standing at one time in that room that night. Don't you think?
    Last edited by azwriter; 08-12-2007 at 10:55 PM. Reason: additional information on the question
    The Hokey Pokey Clinic - A good place to turn yourself around:

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by azwriter View Post
    Great points DeeDee.If there was a small child's footprint in the wine cellar, that means there would be the same mold on the bottom of Jon Benet's foot. If officials found the same mold on the bottom of her bare foot, that means she indeed was standing at one time in that room that night. Don't you think?
    Yes, I certainly do. I would think the bottoms of her feet would have been tested at the autopsy. However, there were some lapses when the coroner first saw the body that evening at the R home. The internal body temperature was not taken (usually done with a special sharp thermometer (like a meat thermometer) into the liver, nor was a sample taken of the vitreous fluid of her eye (to check potassium levels). Both of these simple procedures would have given a reliable time of death. The hands and feet of murder victims are supposed to be bagged before removal to the morgue- I recall reading her hands were bagged, I don't recall seeing anything about the feet.
    As I mentioned, her FOOTPRINT in that wineceller would prove only that she had at one time while alive (at the time her foot was the exact size of the footprint) stood barefoot in that room. It would NOT prove she had been there the night of her murder. HOWEVER, the matching mold on her foot at the time of death WOULD prove she had been there on the last night of her life.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    There are no full view photos of JBR after death that we have been able to see, but there are one or two photos that show partial views of her arms. One, from ACandyRose, shows the body of JBR "in situ". She is dressed in the white Gap shirt, lying on her side, and the cord can be seen. Her ams seem to be out in front of her, bent at the elbow at 90 degree angles at chest level, not straight out in front, clearly stiff with rigor. In that photo, the R living room rug can be seen under her. The coroner's ruler appears in the photo. Her disheveled hair is shown also. She may have been turned on her side for the crime scene photos, which may have been taken showing the body from various angles or may simply show the way the body was placed on the floor.
    In the drawing, which is supposed to duplicate how the body looked when found, she is shown on her back, arms straight up over her head.
    In one photo on the autopsy table, she is shown on her stomach, her bare shoulder showing a bruise, her arms seem to be under her at that point, so rigor had passed off by then. In the PMPT movie, she is shown on the autopsy table, both clothed and unclothed, with arms straight down at her sides, rigor having passed at that point. (because of the open mouth, too), though we cannot take the PMPT movie as 100% accurate.
    I've always been intrigued by the appearance of her hair in those photos. It looks matted and messy, "bed-head" in a way. Yet I do not believe she slept at all that night (except the peaceful sleep of death). So how/why did her hair get so messed up, especially if it was put in 2 ponytails? Was there a struggle of that magnitude, perhaps with her mother, with hairpulling involved? Was it the result of pulling a tight-fitting turtleneck over her head? Was she dragged by the arms along the basement rug?

    As far as the greens in her hair, remember that in addition to the garland on the stair rails, the basement rooms, including the wineceller where she was found, were all used for storage of artificial Christmas trees and decorations. That greenery in her hair could have come from ANY of those basement floors. I feel it actually DID get tangled in her hair from lying on the basement floor. I've never felt she was carried down the stairs. I recall the mention of a small bare footprint, the size of a small child's foot, in the powdery mold of the wineceller floor. I believe she was alive (and standing) at some point in that room. Unfortunately, footprints, like fingerprints, cannot be "dated". They can be linked to a person only in view of their possibility of being in a specific place at a specific time, such as a murder suspect's prints being found in a victim's home, car, etc.
    I do not think this was a room JBR played it. The wooden latch (that infamously prevented Officer French from opening the wineceller door) was too high for her to reach, though there were (obviously) chairs down there. It was creepy and dirty, I just don't think she'd have gone in there. And not barefoot. If she had been playing in the basement and gone into that room, she'd have had shoes on.
    That's the "catch" with some forensic evidence. A parent's clothing fibers on a dead child's clothes prove nothing. BUT a parent's fibers entwined in a dead child's GARROTTE cord and blood-stained panties- that's another matter. Parent's fibers on the clothing the child wore when the body was found (and the parents claim to have NOT dressed her in those clothes) mean that parent is lying about the last time they saw their child, dead OR alive.
    I cannot seem to find the exact photos that you are talking about. Can you help me out???

  8. #8
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    oops, forget it, I think I found the pics you are talking about

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    Yes, I certainly do. I would think the bottoms of her feet would have been tested at the autopsy. However, there were some lapses when the coroner first saw the body that evening at the R home. The internal body temperature was not taken (usually done with a special sharp thermometer (like a meat thermometer) into the liver, nor was a sample taken of the vitreous fluid of her eye (to check potassium levels). Both of these simple procedures would have given a reliable time of death. The hands and feet of murder victims are supposed to be bagged before removal to the morgue- I recall reading her hands were bagged, I don't recall seeing anything about the feet.
    As I mentioned, her FOOTPRINT in that wineceller would prove only that she had at one time while alive (at the time her foot was the exact size of the footprint) stood barefoot in that room. It would NOT prove she had been there the night of her murder. HOWEVER, the matching mold on her foot at the time of death WOULD prove she had been there on the last night of her life.
    DeeDee249,
    Lint was discovered on the soles of JonBenet's feet. When you say footprint do you mean shoeprint, or barefoot print, the latter tells you more than the former.


    .

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMO8778 View Post
    I don't know how to do a poll,so I'll just ask the question,why do you think JB was found with her arms over her head?
    I do rule out stun guns and intruders.So for myself,that leaves the options of: 1-she was trying to protect herself from the head blow,and went into rigor before she could be staged as if an intruder did it..i.e.-arms tied in front of her.Or 2-it was staged to be a sexual assault,ligatures included,and her arms were placed over her head on purpose.3-her shirt was changed after death, her arms were left over her head after changing it (when pulling her arms through the sleeves),and she went into rigor before the staging could be completed.
    Perhaps the R's had washed what they wanted to stage her with,(so it would be clean,none of their dna on it,just as was the deal w. the new underwear,IMO),and while waiting the washer and dryer to finish (and possibly writing the RN during that time),she went into rigor.
    I'm guessing it would be hard to carry her down the stairs with her arms over her head..but then greenery was found in her hair...was it from being carried down the stairs, (arms above her head would make that unlikely) or did it come from somewhere else? So maybe that's a good clue,if it can be determined where the greenery in her hair came from.Either she did not have her arms above her head when being carried down the stairs,or it came from the basement or other area of the house.any thoughts?
    JMO8778,
    Thats how she was left after being bludgeoned to death, and the rigor-mortis simply maintained this posture. Also if JonBenet had been accidently whacked then it is unlikely that her final posture would have occured.

    This may be why she was left wearing the white gap-top, but certainly her outstretched arms are suggestive of a defense posture, either due to a failed attempt at manual asphyxiation, or blows to and around her head, prior to her skull being fractured?

    The greenery could come from any source in the house, but being carried down the stairs is good first guess. I do not think any greenery was discovered on the blankets, which might suggest they were applied after she was brought downstairs?

    The Ramsey's never said they removed JonBenet's socks when they put her to bed, yet she was discovered minus her socks. This may be part of the staging suggestive of a bedtime kidnapping?


    .


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    JMO8778,
    Thats how she was left after being bludgeoned to death, and the rigor-mortis simply maintained this posture. Also if JonBenet had been accidently whacked then it is unlikely that her final posture would have occured.
    hmm ok...maybe this is where Mark Fuhrman's 'and it was no accident,in fact,it was quite intentional' remark comes from...



    The greenery could come from any source in the house, but being carried down the stairs is good first guess.

    I think so,too,although it could have come from the basement floor,seeing as the trees.etc were down there.yet you think it that case,that it would have been in more than just her hair..


    I do not think any greenery was discovered on the blankets, which might suggest they were applied after she was brought downstairs?
    I think so,too.

    The Ramsey's never said they removed JonBenet's socks when they put her to bed, yet she was discovered minus her socks. This may be part of the staging suggestive of a bedtime kidnapping?
    well,she was without them for some reason...were the socks ever found??
    something to ponder:

    When the corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and the mortal have put on immortality, then shall we be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?

    The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
    But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    1 Corinthians 15:54-57

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    I've always been intrigued by the appearance of her hair in those photos. It looks matted and messy, "bed-head" in a way. Yet I do not believe she slept at all that night (except the peaceful sleep of death). So how/why did her hair get so messed up, especially if it was put in 2 ponytails? Was there a struggle of that magnitude, perhaps with her mother, with hairpulling involved? Was it the result of pulling a tight-fitting turtleneck over her head? Was she dragged by the arms along the basement rug?

    me too.it appears some kind of tussle or struggle took place,and JB was resisting.the messy hair,along with the abrasions,manual strangulation,head whack and all...indicate some kind of resistance/self defense that JB was putting up but in the end,lost due to being overpowered.a power and control struggle of sorts? in that case I think it points more to Patsy.



    I recall the mention of a small bare footprint, the size of a small child's foot, in the powdery mold of the wineceller floor. I believe she was alive (and standing) at some point in that room.
    that would make sense of the scream heard then..altho if JB was killed in her room/bathroom,then I think it was Patsy that screamed.
    I wish we could know more of the autopsy and whether mold was indeed on her feet/foot.
    I also feel strongly that there was another tox test done,and a sedative was found in JB..that would explain why JR kept pointing the finger at PW and saying she drugged her,that it was 'strange' she fixed a separate plate for her,'strange' that she went down the line when serving,etc..Patsy may have put a klonopin under JB's tongue if she had a seizure from the head injury,to try to get it to stop.or if it was a molestation...JR could have given it to her,to ensure she was at least partially asleep b/f anything occured,so as to interrupt her memory.
    something to ponder:

    When the corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and the mortal have put on immortality, then shall we be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?

    The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
    But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    1 Corinthians 15:54-57

  13. #13
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    Dee..I think I recall when you first came to the board,you said you had talked to Steve Thomas via email.May I ask,is there anything he said that sways you away from his toilet rage theory? or is it just the evidence itself that leads you to JR and not Patsy as the killer?
    something to ponder:

    When the corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and the mortal have put on immortality, then shall we be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?

    The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
    But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    1 Corinthians 15:54-57

  14. #14
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    I remember reading somwhere that JB used to sleep with her hands over her head. I have always felt that she was placed in that position as part of the staging by a loved one as if she were asleep.
    IN MY OPINION

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMO8778 View Post
    Dee..I think I recall when you first came to the board,you said you had talked to Steve Thomas via email.May I ask,is there anything he said that sways you away from his toilet rage theory? or is it just the evidence itself that leads you to JR and not Patsy as the killer?

    No, Sorry. There were only three emails, and I first contacted him through his website, which I linked from ACandyRose. I told him that I admired his integrity, and thought that he really was dedicated to finding justice for this little girl. I also wrote after the John Mark Karr fiasco. I never expected that he would return my first email, or whether he would want to have anythubg to do with the case so long after leaving LE. But he did write back, and was very gentlemanly and sincere.

    I HAVEN'T ruled PR out. I just can't rule her in excusively. I know there are cases where sexual abuse is perpetrated by the mother. But I just feel JR had something to do with it too.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

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