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  1. #1
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    JB's Pants and Underwear???

    I just thought of something and if it has been proven to be wrong, I apologize.

    I recall reading in the NE interviews that Haney shows Patsy a picture of some black pants worn by JB on JB's bathroom floor - there were stepped out of and left that way and they WERE SOILED. So did JB not wear those pants that day, Christmas Day? She came home, stepped out of them and left them there on the floor (after the White's party). Forgive me if I am wrong. I thought she wore those black pants to the White's party with the white shirt (that is what Patsy claims, at least the white shirt is). So to me it appears she was NOT WEARING UNDERWEAR for the pants to be soiled. So maybe there were no underwear to get rid of.

    Any thoughts???/

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solace View Post
    I just thought of something and if it has been proven to be wrong, I apologize.

    I recall reading in the NE interviews that Haney shows Patsy a picture of some black pants worn by JB on JB's bathroom floor - there were stepped out of and left that way and they WERE SOILED. So did JB not wear those pants that day, Christmas Day? She came home, stepped out of them and left them there on the floor (after the White's party). Forgive me if I am wrong. I thought she wore those black pants to the White's party with the white shirt (that is what Patsy claims, at least the white shirt is). So to me it appears she was NOT WEARING UNDERWEAR for the pants to be soiled. So maybe there were no underwear to get rid of.

    Any thoughts???/
    Just one!
    I think most should step back and take a deep breath!
    Look at the bigger picture!
    Get past the matrix laid out in front of your eyes.

  3. #3
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    Those pants, I think, were a pair of black play pants that she had worn earlier that day. They were not the same as the black velvet pants she wore to the White's party. I know PR was questioned about them. That being said, I recall reading that there actually were soiled underpants inside those soiled black pants, although I don't see how the pants would show up in a photo as being soiled if there were underpants inside them. Since none of us have seen the photos, we all have to form a mental image from the description.
    Now, if anyone has the link, that will clear it up. I read it in one of the depositions on ACandyRose.
    If it WAS the same black velvet pants as she wore to the White's - well, that blows the parents' claim that she was asleep in the car and carried up to her bed, where her father claims he took off her shoes and her mother claims she pulled off her pants and put her in the thermal long johns, right out of the water!
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  4. #4
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    I thought those pants stepped out of and left on the floor were jeans, not black pants?

    Play pants, yes, that is the word I was searching for!

  5. #5
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    I recall that they were black pants. There was confusion about the "jeans" worn by PR as well as JBR that day. The "jeans" were made of black velvet, not denim, and PR is questioned about this distinction by LE. She calls them black velvet jeans, and then LE asks if they are denim, to which PR clarifies by stating that they they were jeans, but made of black velvet. JBR's were the same thing- jeans (from the Gap) made of black velvet.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    Those pants, I think, were a pair of black play pants that she had worn earlier that day. They were not the same as the black velvet pants she wore to the White's party. I know PR was questioned about them. That being said, I recall reading that there actually were soiled underpants inside those soiled black pants, although I don't see how the pants would show up in a photo as being soiled if there were underpants inside them. Since none of us have seen the photos, we all have to form a mental image from the description.
    Now, if anyone has the link, that will clear it up. I read it in one of the depositions on ACandyRose.
    If it WAS the same black velvet pants as she wore to the White's - well, that blows the parents' claim that she was asleep in the car and carried up to her bed, where her father claims he took off her shoes and her mother claims she pulled off her pants and put her in the thermal long johns, right out of the water!
    DeeDee249,
    This has been discussed before, and the clothing on the floor is ambiguously referred to as pants in the interviews, whether they contain underwear, is open to debate.

    In the context of a Toilet Rage scenario, why they were left there is puzzling?


    .

  7. #7
    Something caught my eye as I was reading Patsy's interview. Haney shows Patsy photos of JB's bathroom. He asks Patsy about some pants found on a shelf....? I thought the pants were on the floor?
    ...We have said to ourselves, look, there is never going to be a victory in this, there is no victory...John Ramsey: 6/24/98

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toltec View Post
    Something caught my eye as I was reading Patsy's interview. Haney shows Patsy photos of JB's bathroom. He asks Patsy about some pants found on a shelf....? I thought the pants were on the floor?
    I have the interview at home. But I recall Haney showing Patsy a picture of black pants on the bathroom floor and she replies that she sees that they were soiled. I don't recall him asking here when they were put there, etc.

  9. #9
    23 THOMAS HANEY: Okay, go on to

    24 number 17. And what is 17? We have moved --

    25 PATSY RAMSEY: Into the bathroom.

    0265

    1 (INAUDIBLE.)

    2 THOMAS HANEY: Okay, that's on the

    3 shelf behind the --

    4 PATSY RAMSEY: On the shelf, yes.

    5 Okay.

    6 (Patsy Ramsey looking down into the

    7 photographs.)

    8 PATSY RAMSEY: Looks like a pair of

    9 pants, little buckle (INAUDIBLE).

    10 THOMAS HANEY: Are they play things

    11 or --

    12 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.

    13 THOMAS HANEY: You don't recall

    14 when she last wore them?

    15 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

    16 THOMAS HANEY: Anything else in 17

    17 then, towels or anything that's --

    18 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE

    19 RESPONSE.)

    20 TRIP DeMUTH: This might be the

    21 drawer open slightly.

    22 THOMAS HANEY: Number 18?

    23 TRIP DeMUTH: How about the red

    24 item in the upper right-hand corner?

    25 PATSY RAMSEY: I think it's a

    0266

    1 little turtleneck, a little cotton turtleneck,

    2 and I had wanted her to wear it to the Whites

    3 and she didn't want to wear it.

    4 TRIP DeMUTH: How did it end up

    5 there?

    6 PATSY RAMSEY: Don't remember. A

    7 crown. Oh, God.

    8 THOMAS HANEY: It's about 10:25.

    9 Do you want to take about a ten-minute break,

    10 how's that sound? We will come back.

    11 PATSY RAMSEY: (Crying.) (INAUDIBLE

    12 RESPONSE.)


    These pants....on the shelf...play pants with a little buckle...?

    When Patsy is shown a picture of the red turtleneck, she does not concentrate on that but on the crown in the picture. She than bursts into tears.

    She is not crying because she saw a crown in that picture because she had identified crowns a few minutes earlier. She was thinking of that night in JonBenet's bathroom, the pants, the red turtleneck which set her off.
    ...We have said to ourselves, look, there is never going to be a victory in this, there is no victory...John Ramsey: 6/24/98

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toltec View Post
    23 THOMAS HANEY: Okay, go on to

    24 number 17. And what is 17? We have moved --

    25 PATSY RAMSEY: Into the bathroom.

    0265

    1 (INAUDIBLE.)

    2 THOMAS HANEY: Okay, that's on the

    3 shelf behind the --

    4 PATSY RAMSEY: On the shelf, yes.

    5 Okay.

    6 (Patsy Ramsey looking down into the

    7 photographs.)

    8 PATSY RAMSEY: Looks like a pair of

    9 pants, little buckle (INAUDIBLE).

    10 THOMAS HANEY: Are they play things

    11 or --

    12 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.

    13 THOMAS HANEY: You don't recall

    14 when she last wore them?

    15 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

    16 THOMAS HANEY: Anything else in 17

    17 then, towels or anything that's --

    18 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE

    19 RESPONSE.)

    20 TRIP DeMUTH: This might be the

    21 drawer open slightly.

    22 THOMAS HANEY: Number 18?

    23 TRIP DeMUTH: How about the red

    24 item in the upper right-hand corner?

    25 PATSY RAMSEY: I think it's a

    0266

    1 little turtleneck, a little cotton turtleneck,

    2 and I had wanted her to wear it to the Whites

    3 and she didn't want to wear it.

    4 TRIP DeMUTH: How did it end up

    5 there?

    6 PATSY RAMSEY: Don't remember. A

    7 crown. Oh, God.

    8 THOMAS HANEY: It's about 10:25.

    9 Do you want to take about a ten-minute break,

    10 how's that sound? We will come back.

    11 PATSY RAMSEY: (Crying.) (INAUDIBLE

    12 RESPONSE.)


    These pants....on the shelf...play pants with a little buckle...?

    When Patsy is shown a picture of the red turtleneck, she does not concentrate on that but on the crown in the picture. She than bursts into tears.

    She is not crying because she saw a crown in that picture because she had identified crowns a few minutes earlier. She was thinking of that night in JonBenet's bathroom, the pants, the red turtleneck which set her off.
    Thank you Toltec. I think there is more about these pants though because, as I recall, he points out them being soiled.


  11. #11
    17 PATSY RAMSEY: This is JonBenet's floor, her

    18 pants.

    19 TOM HANEY: Do you recall those particular

    20 pants, when she would have worn those last?

    21 PATSY RAMSEY: Not for sure. Probably

    22 recently because they are dropped in the middle of the

    23 floor, but I don't remember exactly.

    24 TOM HANEY: They are kind of inside out.

    25 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

    0457

    1 TOM HANEY: 379 is a close up of it. It

    2 appears they are stained.

    3 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

    4 TOM HANEY: Is that something that JonBenet

    5 had a problem with?

    6 PATSY RAMSEY: Well she, you know, she was at

    7 age where she was learning to wipe herself and, you

    8 know, sometimes she wouldn't do such a great job.

    9 TOM HANEY: Did she have accidents, if you

    10 will, in the course of the day or the night, as opposed

    11 to just bed wetting?

    12 PATSY RAMSEY: Not usually, no, huh-uh. That

    13 would probably be more from just not wiping real well.

    14 TOM HANEY: Okay. Do you know how long those

    15 would have been in that position in 378 on the floor in

    16 there?

    17 PATSY RAMSEY: It depends when she wore them

    18 last.

    19 TOM HANEY: Again, do you recall?

    20 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember.

    21 TOM HANEY: On Christmas day were you in that

    22 bathroom at all?

    23 PATSY RAMSEY: Very likely, but I can't say

    24 for sure.

    25 TOM HANEY: Had you been in there that day,

    0458

    1 would you have done something with them?

    2 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I got, you know -- that

    3 night I got -- I know I got the long Johns for her out

    4 of that bathroom.

    5 TOM HANEY: Right, out of one of the draws in

    6 there.

    7 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.

    8 TOM HANEY: Do you recall seeing those on the

    9 floor that night when you got the --

    10 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

    11 TOM HANEY: -- underwear.

    12 PATSY RAMSEY: They could have been there. I

    13 don't know.

    14 TOM HANEY: Could have.

    15 PATSY RAMSEY: Could have been there, yes.

    16 Don't know for sure.

    17 TOM HANEY: Is it possible that some point

    18 during the night she would have gotten up and put those

    19 on or thrown them down there or changed in some way;

    20 trying to account for those being there.

    21 PATSY RAMSEY: I just -- I can't imagine

    22 that. No, because I put those -- she was zonked out

    23 asleep, so I put her to bed. And she had those, she

    24 had worn the black velvet ones to Priscilla's.

    25 What she had on earlier that day, I just

    0459

    1 can't remember. It might have been those. I just

    2 can't remember. Could have taken those off, you know,

    3 gotten the dress to go to Priscilla's and then left

    4 them there.

    5 TOM HANEY: When she was out riding her bike,

    6 do you remember, think back, look back at what she was

    7 wearing.

    8 PATSY RAMSEY: Can't remember. (Inaudible).

    9 Envelope.

    10 TOM HANEY: I don't know. But it is

    11 obviously after these have been picked up and stretched

    12 out for a photograph just -- it could be a

    13 (inaudible). Evidence. And 380.


    Okay....we have pants on a shelf....then we have pants on the bathroom floor?
    ...We have said to ourselves, look, there is never going to be a victory in this, there is no victory...John Ramsey: 6/24/98

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toltec View Post
    17 PATSY RAMSEY: This is JonBenet's floor, her

    18 pants.

    19 TOM HANEY: Do you recall those particular

    20 pants, when she would have worn those last?

    21 PATSY RAMSEY: Not for sure. Probably

    22 recently because they are dropped in the middle of the

    23 floor, but I don't remember exactly.

    24 TOM HANEY: They are kind of inside out.

    25 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

    0457

    1 TOM HANEY: 379 is a close up of it. It

    2 appears they are stained.

    3 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

    4 TOM HANEY: Is that something that JonBenet

    5 had a problem with?

    6 PATSY RAMSEY: Well she, you know, she was at

    7 age where she was learning to wipe herself and, you

    8 know, sometimes she wouldn't do such a great job.

    9 TOM HANEY: Did she have accidents, if you

    10 will, in the course of the day or the night, as opposed

    11 to just bed wetting?

    12 PATSY RAMSEY: Not usually, no, huh-uh. That

    13 would probably be more from just not wiping real well.

    14 TOM HANEY: Okay. Do you know how long those

    15 would have been in that position in 378 on the floor in

    16 there?

    17 PATSY RAMSEY: It depends when she wore them

    18 last.

    19 TOM HANEY: Again, do you recall?

    20 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember.

    21 TOM HANEY: On Christmas day were you in that

    22 bathroom at all?

    23 PATSY RAMSEY: Very likely, but I can't say

    24 for sure.

    25 TOM HANEY: Had you been in there that day,

    0458

    1 would you have done something with them?

    2 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I got, you know -- that

    3 night I got -- I know I got the long Johns for her out

    4 of that bathroom.

    5 TOM HANEY: Right, out of one of the draws in

    6 there.

    7 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.

    8 TOM HANEY: Do you recall seeing those on the

    9 floor that night when you got the --

    10 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

    11 TOM HANEY: -- underwear.

    12 PATSY RAMSEY: They could have been there. I

    13 don't know.

    14 TOM HANEY: Could have.

    15 PATSY RAMSEY: Could have been there, yes.

    16 Don't know for sure.

    17 TOM HANEY: Is it possible that some point

    18 during the night she would have gotten up and put those

    19 on or thrown them down there or changed in some way;

    20 trying to account for those being there.

    21 PATSY RAMSEY: I just -- I can't imagine

    22 that. No, because I put those -- she was zonked out

    23 asleep, so I put her to bed. And she had those, she

    24 had worn the black velvet ones to Priscilla's.

    25 What she had on earlier that day, I just

    0459

    1 can't remember. It might have been those. I just

    2 can't remember. Could have taken those off, you know,

    3 gotten the dress to go to Priscilla's and then left

    4 them there.

    5 TOM HANEY: When she was out riding her bike,

    6 do you remember, think back, look back at what she was

    7 wearing.

    8 PATSY RAMSEY: Can't remember. (Inaudible).

    9 Envelope.

    10 TOM HANEY: I don't know. But it is

    11 obviously after these have been picked up and stretched

    12 out for a photograph just -- it could be a

    13 (inaudible). Evidence. And 380.
    It sounds like Patsy is talking about two different pairs of pants: 'those' (black velvet pants) which JonBenet wore to the Whites and 'those' others which were found on the floor inside out, and had traces of soiling in them.
    Last edited by rashomon; 08-17-2007 at 04:50 AM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by rashomon View Post
    It sounds like Patsy is talking about two differnt pairs of pants: 'those' (black velvet pants) which JonBenet wore to the Whites and 'those' others which were found on the floor inside out, and had traces of soiling in them.
    rashomon,

    I agree, but are they underwear pants or jean pants?

    If you assume Patsy is being consistent within the context of the interview then I guess the pants on the floor will not be underwear?


    .

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    rashomon,

    I agree, but are they underwear pants or jean pants?


    .
    They are neither, they are just simple black fabric kid's pants.
    There were also black velvet jeans, that she wore to the White's with the matching black velvet vest and white star shirt. PR also wore black velvet jeans to the White's.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    They are neither, they are just simple black fabric kid's pants.
    There were also black velvet jeans, that she wore to the White's with the matching black velvet vest and white star shirt. PR also wore black velvet jeans to the White's.
    DeeDee249,

    Where does it say that the pants lying on the bathroom floor were simple black fabric kid's pants?

    Were these kid's black fabric pants underwear, or outerwear, to be less ambiguous?

    Also Patsy invokes memory loss as to what JonBenet was wearing that afternoon despite being record as saying she would be the only one to supervise JonBenet bathing etc

    she wore to the White's with the matching black velvet vest and white star shirt.
    How do you know this, do the Ramsey's say they removed it on returning from the White's, does the pathologist itemize it anywhere?



    .

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