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  1. #1
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    How bad a mother does it take? European or American ideas?

    I would like to say the main reason I mentioned income level in another thread is that someone else said that she had no empathy for KM because she had "more resources", as if that was an excuse for not having empathy for the woman.

    I do think that people tend to believe that more money buys more security than it really does. Life is much more complicated than that. I think having less money but an excellent support system is better than tons of money and a really awful support system. (Anyone seen Britney lately, with her 750,000 a month? Well, there's an example of what I mean.) Money can't buy trust, love or honesty. KM, if she really was stressed to her limits, as was implied earlier, is as worthy of sympathy as a mother with less money, I believe. That was the whole money argument from my side.

    I agree with many here that the McCann family has not made a good public impression at all. They do seem to be amazingly inept in the public eye. This might because they are cold-blooded, or it might be because they are just stupid. Then again, they might be simply clueless as to how the media chews people up & spits them out again. Few of us are used to the whole world watching our every move, and I just think it might be harder to manage than we try to pretend.

    I think my main point in all my posts today is that so many people seem willing to judge very harshly on almost no evidence at all. Yes, they were really stupid to leave their children alone like that. Not to burst anyone's bubble, but that sort of thing is sadly very, very common in Europe. I know lots of people who are otherwise what I consider conscientious parents who go to resorts and do the same thing. People in Switzerland are, in fact, told by the schools that children Madeleine's age MUST be allowed to walk to school alone, since that builds character. We have been told we are bad parents if we walk a four-year-old to school, because this is stunting their emotional growth. This was such a big issue it was front page news in a Zurich paper recently. Meanwhile, a five-year-old girl's body was found this week. Her case is being investigated for links to Madeleine's case, since the suspect was living in Spain with his wife before he came back here to kidnap the Swiss girl.

    Anyway, here it is a different mentality, and I feel this is being ignored by people commenting on this case. Ideas of safety for children are not the same, no matter how wrong this may seem or be.

    I am known as the crazy, over-protective American because I won't do that. - leave my child alone, let her walk alone. I think most people here are grossly underestimating just how true it is when Kate Mccan says they really didn't think it was that big a deal to leave their children alone when they were sleeping. They had done it all week, by their own admission. One more night, they would have been home, and none of us ever would have heard of them. I have Swedish, Swiss and Italian neighbors who do this all the time, still. To them, this case is too rare to worry about. As they put it, your child is more likely to be hit twice by lightening than to be abducted by a stranger, so you're crazy to worry so much about it.Again, another mentality.

    I am not defending what I also think is irresponsible behavior. I do think, though, that people are ready to hang KM when no one knows what really happened that night. If her greatest crime was leaving her children alone that night, then I think KM has paid the price already. What could be worse than to lose your child forever like that, just because you did what everyone else was doing? All her friends left their children alone that night, too, but they got to take their kids back to England. Dumb choices don't always end in something as awful as a lost child. People get away with it every day, we just like to pretend they don't.

    I don't know what happened, and neither does anyone else here. What I find appalling is how quickly people are willing to blame a mother based on what even the police say is no substantial evidence at all. Show me some evidence, and I'm ready to change my mind. I don't see anything yet, though, but a modern day witch hunt. If it weren't, people would be baying for the father's blood just as much as the mother's.

    Shrinky

  2. #2
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    shrinkydink,
    Long post there.If it seems I am rambling and not making much sense I am sorry I am sick .
    There are quite a few people who do think Gerry is more to blame than Kate.If you go back and read the threads before this was made a Featured case discussion you will see that.

    I think the social status is playing a big role in this case.If Gerry and Kate had been on welfare(or whatever its called in other places) they would have been brought up on charges of neglect.
    *There is a video on youtube of a brit who says this much better than I did and I can't find it.I will keep looking and post it later*

    In it being her greatest crime that she only left the children alone,well cause has effect and hers and Gerrys cause led to the effect of their 3 year old daughter going missing.

    I don't hate them but I am holding them responsible.I have stated that I think they are both or one guility along with OBrien.As I stated earlier ,Maybe they didn't have anything to do physicaly with Madeleine being missing.Could be all on OBrien and possibly Murat.

    If Europe is as lax as you are stating and its blowing my mind because of how easy it is to travel from country to country and with the pedo rings ect then I hope that now people there who have heard about this case will be more protective over their children.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceeaura View Post
    shrinkydink

    If Europe is as lax as you are stating and its blowing my mind because of how easy it is to travel from country to country and with the pedo rings ect then I hope that now people there who have heard about this case will be more protective over their children.
    Sadly, it is as lax as I have said. I am appalled by how people here try to act as if these things don't happen that often. Ok, maybe kids aren't kidnapped all that often, but as I ask my friends here, are you really going to be sitting around, saying, "Gee, the odds were totally against my child getting kidnapped¨" when it's *your* child? Of course not.

    I don't get it, either, but I do think this case and the recent ones in Switzerland have made a bit of a difference. A few Swiss people are also now saying that children of only four and five should not be walking alone to school. This is really progress for this country. It IS a very safe country, but they do need to admit *no place* is pedophile-free. And you are quite right about the pedo-rings in Europe. If we all know the kids walk to school alone, you know the pedophiles are aware of it, too.

    Shrinky

  4. #4
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    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by shrinkydink View Post
    Sadly, it is as lax as I have said. I am appalled by how people here try to act as if these things don't happen that often. Ok, maybe kids aren't kidnapped all that often, but as I ask my friends here, are you really going to be sitting around, saying, "Gee, the odds were totally against my child getting kidnapped¨" when it's *your* child? Of course not.


    Shrinky
    Kidnapping is not the only danger and not the only reason not to leave your child alone. Starting fires is another biggie. Getting into dangerous things like drugs, and sharp objects like razor blades and scissors, sticking their fingers in electric sockets, drinking poison, climbing on high cabinets, drowning in the toilets... That's why people hire babysitters.
    Last edited by LinasK; 09-15-2007 at 10:20 PM. Reason: adding other dangers from another post
    This is the year to locate Mark Dribin http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...ht=Mark+Dribin NamUs MP#876 and Ilene Misheloff http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...lene+Misheloff NamUs MP#6410 and bring them home to their families!

    Parents watch your children. Free-range parenting leads to more child victims.

    Cruelty to humans begins with cruelty to animals.

    I believe in closure, not forgiveness. I'm also unapologetically judgemental.

    JeSuisJuif
    JeSuisCharlie


  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by LinasK View Post
    Kidnapping is not the only danger and not the only reason not to leave your child alone. Starting fires is another biggie. Getting into dangerous things like drugs, and sharp objects like razor blades and scissors are others... That's why people hire babysitters.
    I agree. It's just not that way here, though. People treat their children more like little adults. I have friends who let their three-year-olds play with matchs, help cook, use scissors. The theory is that they learn by doing, and so far - knock on wood - there have been no injuries. It seems to work for them, although I am still very wary.

    Shrinky

  6. #6
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    I understand your point shrinky. I live in the deep south (US) and it is common here for kids to walk home from school alone and be home alone from a very young age. I have spent a good bit of time out west in Wyoming and there it is very common to see loaded guns propped up against the wall in the living room and in the trucks right next to the car seat. All good parents aren't located in one geographical location they are spread out everywhere as are the bad ones. People doing things one way in one area where it wouldn't be done that way in another should definitely be factored in when we look at the big picture.
    The world is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
    Bertrand Russell

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glow View Post
    I understand your point shrinky. I live in the deep south (US) and it is common here for kids to walk home from school alone and be home alone from a very young age. I have spent a good bit of time out west in Wyoming and there it is very common to see loaded guns propped up against the wall in the living room and in the trucks right next to the car seat. All good parents aren't located in one geographical location they are spread out everywhere as are the bad ones. People doing things one way in one area where it wouldn't be done that way in another should definitely be factored in when we look at the big picture.
    Not only do you understand - your quote is from Madeleine L'Engle. Thank you for both!

    Shrinky

  8. #8
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    Yes, they were really stupid to leave their children alone like that. Not to burst anyone's bubble, but that sort of thing is sadly very, very common in Europe. I know lots of people who are otherwise what I consider conscientious parents who go to resorts and do the same thing. People in Switzerland are, in fact, told by the schools that children Madeleine's age MUST be allowed to walk to school alone, since that builds character. We have been told we are bad parents if we walk a four-year-old to school, because this is stunting their emotional growth. This was such a big issue it was front page news in a Zurich paper recently. Meanwhile, a five-year-old girl's body was found this week. Her case is being investigated for links to Madeleine's case, since the suspect was living in Spain with his wife before he came back here to kidnap the Swiss girl. Anyway, here it is a different mentality, and I feel this is being ignored by people commenting on this case. Ideas of safety for children are not the same, no matter how wrong this may seem or be.
    It sounds almost like because it is "common" in Europe somehow (in this case) must be justified, I do not think so at all. Her "mentality" as you call it resulted in the DISAPPEARANCE of her three year old child, let's PLEASE not forget that.
    If her greatest crime was leaving her children alone that night, then I think KM has paid the price already.
    Really? It seems like you see her as a "victim" when the only victim I see here is Madeleine whose because of irresponsible parents ended up...well...who knows where! The Mc Canns will ONLY pay for their negligence when they are charged for negligence.
    Dumb choices don't always end in something as awful as a lost child. People get away with it every day, we just like to pretend they don't.
    Sure but in this case we have a MISSING child, are you going to make an eye blind there? Yes, people make DUMB choices DAILY but when those choices AFFECT OTHER people, in this case a toddler they MUST be held accountable.

  9. #9
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    Personally, I believe that the number one factor in a woman's ability to mother and her quality of mothering directly relates to how she was mothered.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6651307.stm

    http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/vi...264930,00.html

    I won't make any comment....what does your gut tell you?
    Last edited by colomom; 09-15-2007 at 05:31 PM. Reason: I really do know how to spell...

  10. #10
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    Personally, I believe that the number one factor in a women's ability to mother and her quality of mothering directly relates to how she was mothered.
    Absolutely! And let me add that, THAT fact alone sometimes goes beyond cultural issues.


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by shrinkydink View Post
    I agree. It's just not that way here, though. People treat their children more like little adults. I have friends who let their three-year-olds play with matchs, help cook, use scissors. The theory is that they learn by doing, and so far - knock on wood - there have been no injuries. It seems to work for them, although I am still very wary.

    Shrinky
    Oh, I know you didn't mean play with matches....you meant use matches, right?

    Any matches around a three year old is a receipe for disaster...IMHO.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by colomom View Post
    Personally, I believe that the number one factor in a woman's ability to mother and her quality of mothering directly relates to how she was mothered.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6651307.stm

    http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/vi...264930,00.html

    I won't make any comment....what does your gut tell you?
    Madeleine was a very much loved little girl. It's obvious her grandparents dote on her. And it's sad when you contrast how the Healys feel about their granddaughter with what her parents have said.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by shrinkydink View Post
    I agree. It's just not that way here, though. People treat their children more like little adults. I have friends who let their three-year-olds play with matchs, help cook, use scissors. The theory is that they learn by doing, and so far - knock on wood - there have been no injuries. It seems to work for them, although I am still very wary.

    Shrinky
    Ok, I can understand allowing a 3 year old to "help" cook, and use scissors (safety scissors)....but you have friends who allow their 3 year olds to PLAY WITH MATCHES????? Are you serious????

    Please tell your friends to make sure their fire insurance is in effect, because they will need it. Jeez....I'm sorry, but IMO, your friends parenting skills leave alot to be desired!

    ETA: "Playing" or "Using" matches is just semantics. Any 3 year old who is allowed access to matches needs to have their parents analyzed, IMO.

  14. #14
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    I'm in the UK I would now way leave my children alone, my youngest son has never slept without me in the room let alone out the house. It really isn't the usual thing to do in the UK either. Most people I know cant believe how stupid they were in leaving them alone.
    I really can't see why they just couldn't of eaten dinner together as a family.
    I am sure had this of been a smoking single young chav mum on benefits her name would've been dragged through the mud from day 1. Instead it's been kind of frowned on to criticise them too much...until now that is!

  15. #15
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    snip from shrinky: Dumb choices don't always end in something as awful as a lost child. People get away with it every day, we just like to pretend they don't.

    No, there are many people out here who don't get to pretend that other people are getting away with dumb choices.

    That would be those of us who work with children and have to "clean up" the messes the parents make. There are literally thousands of people in various occupations from emergency room nurses to teachers to sheriff's deputies whose jobs day in and day out consist of trying to help children in various ways who are in difficult or even traumatic situations because of choices their parents made.

    Safety is obviously different in different places--you might not have to worry about pedophiles snatching a child in one place, you might have to watch out for crocodiles. In each part of the world, there are unique and common dangers to all children. The McCanns as doctors would have had experience with children's injuries, from their medical training. They might have reasonably assumed no one would snatch their child. But they were unreasonable to assume that two year olds and a 3 1/2 year old could not manage to injure themselves in some way when left alone, especially if it is true that the door was unlocked. Children wandering off and drowning in pools certainly isn't unique to my part of the world.

    I'll go on record saying I don't have much empathy for the parents, either. I don't think Kate and Gerry paid the ultimate price, I think Madeleine did. One thing I see with Kate and Gerry that I also with parents who continually sabotage their children's wellbeing or safety is denial or an inability to admit responsibility. Kate and Gerry are still insisting that they were only 50 yards away, and Kate referred to their decision as a mistake "if you can call it that."

    That goes beyond a temporary "dumb choice, it goes to a deep-rooted inability to change or evolve, if you will, in parenting. That is the attitude I saw in parents whose children had been sexually abused and yet still allowed relative strange men ("friends from work") to sleep over on their couches, in their underwear. Households with 5 adults present, but where no one can manage to wake up in time to get the children to school on time, ever.

    After awhile, I stopped feeling sorry for parents like that.

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