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  1. #1
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    The Sleeping Twins

    On Thursday, we learned that the PJ has Kate's diary and she supposedly describes having a difficult time with her children, claiming they are "hysterical" and commenting on Madeleine as a child whose excessive activity consumes her strength.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...11&ito=newsnow

    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...5&postcount=59

    However, this does not correlate with the following information about the children from their father, Gerry.

    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...5&postcount=71

    Here he was discussing the way the twins slept so deeply the night that Madeleine disappeared- both he and his wife think it’s “normal” that their twin children kept sleeping on the night of the crime.

    I believe these two statements are mutually exclusive of each other. For children to sleep that deeply means that Kate would probably get a lot of rest once they were in bed (apparently very early at night) and wouldn't feel so exhausted. Likewise, hyper children normally have a difficult time going to sleep at night, and the McCanns don't seem to have had any problems with theirs (according to them).

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaliKid View Post
    On Thursday, we learned that the PJ has Kate's diary and she supposedly describes having a difficult time with her children, claiming they are "hysterical" and commenting on Madeleine as a child whose excessive activity consumes her strength.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...11&ito=newsnow

    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...5&postcount=59

    However, this does not correlate with the following information about the children from their father, Gerry.

    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...5&postcount=71

    Here he was discussing the way the twins slept so deeply the night that Madeleine disappeared- both he and his wife think it’s “normal” that their twin children kept sleeping on the night of the crime.

    I believe these two statements are mutually exclusive of each other. For children to sleep that deeply means that Kate would probably get a lot of rest once they were in bed (apparently very early at night) and wouldn't feel so exhausted. Likewise, hyper children normally have a difficult time going to sleep at night, and the McCanns don't seem to have had any problems with theirs (according to them).
    Very good points, CaliKid!!

  3. #3
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    I'm so glad you started a thread about this, because it has been bothering me! I think you've identified a major problem in the parent's story.

    Plus, we know now that the kids weren't with Kate all day every day, but were in daycare of some kind, so is she saying she didn't want them around at other times? Wouldn't she expect them to want attention after being away from her all day?

    If the Twins slept soundly, but Madeline was more awake all the time because she was older and just more active (some children are just like that!), wouldn't that make a good motive for them drugging her to get her to sleep with the Twins? It's starting to sound that way to me.

    I also have quite a bit of trouble when any parent says that their very young children are "hysterical." All young children have at least one little tantrum a day, and while we all get tired of dealing with that, it's a phase they go through while they test the limits, and after all they don't have control of their emotions. So while I agree that it is normal for any mother to be overwhelmed with three young kids, Kate seems to have had time away from them. What she seemed to resent is that her husband had "more" time away than she did, and that bothers me.

    These kids were very close in age, and having Twins in addition to Maddie must have been quite a burden for anyone. But once you start believing that crying or arguing from a four-year-old is "hysteria," you can start to believe almost anything, and I just wonder if people might have had some depression going on.

    I'm the proud mother of a new attorney!
    It's better to know some of the questions than all of the answers. ~ James Thurber
    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing ~ Edmund Burke
    Why shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. ~ Mark Twain

  4. #4
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    Hysterical

    Quote Originally Posted by ThoughtFox View Post
    I'm so glad you started a thread about this, because it has been bothering me! I think you've identified a major problem in the parent's story.

    I also have quite a bit of trouble when any parent says that their very young children are "hysterical." All young children have at least one little tantrum a day, and while we all get tired of dealing with that, it's a phase they go through while they test the limits, and after all they don't have control of their emotions.
    ThoughtFox - I shortened your post for the sake of space. I hope you don't mind.

    Cali - I think this is a very good line of questioning. I mean, you can't have it both ways. Either the children were hyper or they were good sleepers (which, generally, means a calmer type child).

    I do have to say this though because I've been thinking about it since they published the "excerpt" from KM's diary. Hysterical does not necessarily mean hard to handle or out of control.

    We (my family) call our grandkids hysterical all the time. To us, it means they "crack us up," make us laugh our heads off. It means they were being funny or they did something that was just too cute.

    In the case of Maddie and all the regurgitation of "facts" it could very well mean that KM's comment was published completely out of context.

    Now, let me clarify. I am not a fence sitter. I believe the parents are responsible for Maddie's disappearance for many, many different reasons. However, if this case has taught me anything, it is to be very leary of anything I read in the press and especially anything coming from the British media.

    I agree with several other posters that public opinion is being manipulated by the media and by PLE. I think PLE leaks things on purpose, some of which is true and some of which is not. And I am very disappointed to hear that Sousa of the PLE is no longer the spokesperson for the case, because I had just about figured him out. He never said what he meant

    Salem

  5. #5
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    I'm wondering if hysteria might be a very accurate word to use for some reason. I'd think a doctor wouldn't be exaggerating words to describe symptoms or actions since they are so used to being factual. Maybe there is some reason that the children were horribly upset.

  6. #6
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    I've also seen the word hyperactive substituted for hysterical.

    To me, just like with Salem, hysterical means crack-up funny, which is a good thing for children to be when they're relaxing with their family. I don't think this is what Kate meant.

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    Salem: I totally understand your point about the meaning of "hysterical." And I would love it if you were right.

    I'll grant that maybe Kate was writing about her day when she was still upset about something Maddie did, or maybe she was just tired or angry at her husband because he got to go off and play golf, while she stayed behind. We've all been there, done that as mothers.

    If I ever thought of my kids as "hysterical," though, it was in the context of crying, throwing themselves on the floor, shouting, or arguing. I don't find that to be unusual behavior for 2- or 4- year-olds. In fact, most people would probably call that normal behavior sometimes.

    Here's the thing - one of those articles mentions discipline. Some parents expect way too much maturity from toddlers, and I see that all the time. They expect them never to interrupt, make a mess, cry, argue, or get their clothes dirty. Alot of parents make a battle out of everything because their expectations of perfection are too high, and it's not always the kid's fault.

    I admit to being a more laid-back parent than that, but I picked my battles. I might not mind a child staying up a little later to watch a cartoon, but I would make them brush their teeth even if they didn't want to. I also used to make my kids stay in bed, but I'd allow them to stay awake and play or look at a book a little while if it helped them go to sleep.

    I don't know - that's not the vibe I'm getting from these folks.

    Bedtime is a major battleground for parents from ages 0 to 17. We know the McCanns wanted the kids to sleep through dinner nearly every night so they could leave them alone.

    Those of us with kids know that small children are not always that consistant, nor are they willing to go right to bed. Gosh - I was with a group of women last night and we were talking about all the little things kids expect at bedtime, from pacifiers to blankets to stories to music. I just do not hear any of that normal stuff in this case except for the cuddle cat toy.

    Bottom line for me is whether bedtime was an issue, especially if Kate was tired of dealing with the kids as her diary allegedly says? Did they resort to drugging the kids because it was just expedient so they could go on to dinner? I hate thinking about this by the way - it's so heartbreaking.

    I'm the proud mother of a new attorney!
    It's better to know some of the questions than all of the answers. ~ James Thurber
    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing ~ Edmund Burke
    Why shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. ~ Mark Twain

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThoughtFox View Post
    Salem: I totally understand your point about the meaning of "hysterical." And I would love it if you were right.

    I'll grant that maybe Kate was writing about her day when she was still upset about something Maddie did, or maybe she was just tired or angry at her husband because he got to go off and play golf, while she stayed behind. We've all been there, done that as mothers.

    If I ever thought of my kids as "hysterical," though, it was in the context of crying, throwing themselves on the floor, shouting, or arguing. I don't find that to be unusual behavior for 2- or 4- year-olds. In fact, most people would probably call that normal behavior sometimes.

    Here's the thing - one of those articles mentions discipline. Some parents expect way too much maturity from toddlers, and I see that all the time. They expect them never to interrupt, make a mess, cry, argue, or get their clothes dirty. Alot of parents make a battle out of everything because their expectations of perfection are too high, and it's not always the kid's fault.

    I admit to being a more laid-back parent than that, but I picked my battles. I might not mind a child staying up a little later to watch a cartoon, but I would make them brush their teeth even if they didn't want to. I also used to make my kids stay in bed, but I'd allow them to stay awake and play or look at a book a little while if it helped them go to sleep.

    I don't know - that's not the vibe I'm getting from these folks.

    Bedtime is a major battleground for parents from ages 0 to 17. We know the McCanns wanted the kids to sleep through dinner nearly every night so they could leave them alone.

    Those of us with kids know that small children are not always that consistant, nor are they willing to go right to bed. Gosh - I was with a group of women last night and we were talking about all the little things kids expect at bedtime, from pacifiers to blankets to stories to music. I just do not hear any of that normal stuff in this case except for the cuddle cat toy.

    Bottom line for me is whether bedtime was an issue, especially if Kate was tired of dealing with the kids as her diary allegedly says? Did they resort to drugging the kids because it was just expedient so they could go on to dinner? I hate thinking about this by the way - it's so heartbreaking.
    It is very heartbreaking ThoughtFox, what I dont understand is how could Kate be sick of dealing with her children if they were in creche for the most part of everyday, the parents had a lot of me time but not a lot of kid time.

  9. #9
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    I wish the PJ could get some of the twins' hair if they don't already have it and test it for sedatives. From what one of the relatives hinted and the trouble KM expressed to having with the children, I'd bet they were sedated a lot, not just in Portugal.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThoughtFox View Post
    I'm so glad you started a thread about this, because it has been bothering me! I think you've identified a major problem in the parent's story.

    Plus, we know now that the kids weren't with Kate all day every day, but were in daycare of some kind, so is she saying she didn't want them around at other times? Wouldn't she expect them to want attention after being away from her all day?

    If the Twins slept soundly, but Madeline was more awake all the time because she was older and just more active (some children are just like that!), wouldn't that make a good motive for them drugging her to get her to sleep with the Twins? It's starting to sound that way to me.

    I also have quite a bit of trouble when any parent says that their very young children are "hysterical." All young children have at least one little tantrum a day, and while we all get tired of dealing with that, it's a phase they go through while they test the limits, and after all they don't have control of their emotions. So while I agree that it is normal for any mother to be overwhelmed with three young kids, Kate seems to have had time away from them. What she seemed to resent is that her husband had "more" time away than she did, and that bothers me.

    These kids were very close in age, and having Twins in addition to Maddie must have been quite a burden for anyone. But once you start believing that crying or arguing from a four-year-old is "hysteria," you can start to believe almost anything, and I just wonder if people might have had some depression going on.
    We don't all use the same words to describe things- that's why there's so many words!


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaliKid View Post
    I wish the PJ could get some of the twins' hair if they don't already have it and test it for sedatives. From what one of the relatives hinted and the trouble KM expressed to having with the children, I'd bet they were sedated a lot, not just in Portugal.
    That wouldnt suprise me Calikid, I would love to know what information has been passed onto the prosecution, maybe they have done DNA on the twins.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaliKid View Post
    I wish the PJ could get some of the twins' hair if they don't already have it and test it for sedatives. From what one of the relatives hinted and the trouble KM expressed to having with the children, I'd bet they were sedated a lot, not just in Portugal.
    Every video clip I have personally seen of the twins, they have appeared lethargic and sedated. But them again maybe they where just sleepy.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by txsvicki View Post
    I'm wondering if hysteria might be a very accurate word to use for some reason. I'd think a doctor wouldn't be exaggerating words to describe symptoms or actions since they are so used to being factual. Maybe there is some reason that the children were horribly upset.
    I'd have been hysterical, too, if I was 3 or 4 and my parents left me all alone, especially in a strange place.

    But if we're talking about in general life at home in Leicestershire, there may have been other reasons why Madeleine was hysterical, as Vicki says. I have a lot of questions about their home life and the parenting Madeleine received. As many people have pointed out, Madeleine didn't look like a happy-go-lucky child in many of her photos.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    ThoughtFox - I shortened your post for the sake of space. I hope you don't mind.

    Cali - I think this is a very good line of questioning. I mean, you can't have it both ways. Either the children were hyper or they were good sleepers (which, generally, means a calmer type child).
    Salem
    I'd have to disagree with you there. The ones who burn themselves out with activity while awake often sleep extremely well once they are asleep. When my daughter was young, she was hyperactive and very difficult to get to sleep. But once asleep, she slept through anything.

    It became a minor family joke that she never quite managed to stay awake for the 4th-of-July fireworks display. There we were, all set up on our blanket, with her running, jumping, shaking, shrieking with excitement and anticipation. But invariably she would collapse and pass out 'cold' just minutes before the show started. So there we were with booms and crackles ricocheting off buildings all around us, rattling windows and forcing me to stuff my fingers in my ears, while our little darling slept sweetly ... not even a twitch. I think she was 6 or 7 before she actually saw a show.

    That said, I still think it quite likely that they sedated her, I think it's beastly that the parents would rather go out and drink at night after the poor children had already spent the day in child care and deservedly wanted time with mommy and daddy. AND I think the word "hysterical" is strange and revealing, for the same reasons others have stated. Unless British usage is different from American and I'm missing something .... in American usage, "hysterical" implies that the emotion is inappropriate or exaggerated, or unjustified. And thus not a word you would use to describe a toddler's normal range of emotional behavior.
    JMO

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    She was taking care of three small children (3 and under) that's a lot of stress and I am sure she thought and meant they were "hysterical" because at that age they are very hyperactive.

    Now what surprises me is the fact that I read that she always wanted a "large" family...well....taking care of small kids are PART of it, not just looking nice in a family pic. As a mom of two kids (3 on its way) and possibly having many more in the future, I think she may have not taken into consideration the amount of work that really involves in having a "large" family. The choices she made that night, clearly shows she was not ready to accept "the call".

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