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  1. #46
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    But we are talking about children here. Most people would want justice done. The whole sitch was negligent from the start


  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by scriptgirl View Post
    But we are talking about children here. Most people would want justice done. The whole sitch was negligent from the start
    Oklahoma regularly used to rank in the bottom three in those "most corrupt officals per state" analyses one used to see. The fix might have been in. It happens. Around this same time, there was a massive bust of county commissioners in the eastern half of OK for things like influence-peddling, kickbacks, etc.
    Last edited by wfgodot; 11-27-2009 at 09:48 PM.


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  4. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by wfgodot View Post
    According to the Wiki source (which lacks in-line citation and could be in error), "The author vowed to murder three campers. Because summer camps are rife with ghost stories, the note was treated as a prank and discarded." Again, from the same source: "The civil trial included discussion of the threatening note as well as the fact that tent #8 lay 86-yard (79 m) from the counselors' tent." (The two families who brought the case lost.)

    I remember buying and reading the book about the case ("Someone Cry for the Children: The Unsolved Oklahoma Girl Scout Murders and the Case of Gene Leroy Hart") but it's been a long time ago---published in 1981. So my recall of details, without further fact checking, is, admittedly, way fuzzy.
    Hmmm...conflict on the number in the note I think:
    http://en.allexperts.com/e/o/ok/okla...ut_murders.htm says 3

    http://www.angelfire.com/ok5/girlscoutmurders/ says 4

    http://girlscoutmurders.yuku.com/rep...tml#reply-2267 says 4. This one has a copy/paste from some archives in the newspaper during the time just after the murder:
    "Camp Director Barbara Day testified she heard that "several" months prior to the June 13 slayings, a threatening note had been found at the campsite by a scout participating in a weekend camp-out.

    Mrs. Day said it was not until August that she learned of the note, which she was told read: "Four little girls will be killed."

    She acknowledged on cross-examination that she actually never saw the note."

    additionally:
    "The mother of a sixteen year old girl scout stated in a telephone interview that her daughter had found the note in April of 1977 and gave the note to Mrs. Day.

    "It's my understanding," said the mother, "that the note was thought to be a prank by one of the girls and that it was simply thrown away."

    Wonder which it is???

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  6. #49
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    But who was hushing up this murder and why, if that was the case?


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    On the surface, I have a hard time believing the Hart connection simply because it is quite a switch to go from adult women to little girls, although he might have found them easier to victimize. It just seems like this crime was organized in a weird way-not impulsive....the murder was telegraphed in advance, the perps were selective (if even half of the stories of other scouts seeing men peeking in their tents was true), they brought all their materials and attempted to clean up the blood from the floor of the tent with sheets that they then stuffed into the sleeping bags??!!! The poor baby left by the tree was garotted...then they fled, but Hart left items he had stolen from the camp in his house???
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  9. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by believe09 View Post
    Hmmm...conflict on the number in the note I think:
    http://en.allexperts.com/e/o/ok/okla...ut_murders.htm says 3

    http://www.angelfire.com/ok5/girlscoutmurders/ says 4

    http://girlscoutmurders.yuku.com/rep...tml#reply-2267 says 4. This one has a copy/paste from some archives in the newspaper during the time just after the murder:
    "Camp Director Barbara Day testified she heard that "several" months prior to the June 13 slayings, a threatening note had been found at the campsite by a scout participating in a weekend camp-out.

    Mrs. Day said it was not until August that she learned of the note, which she was told read: "Four little girls will be killed."

    She acknowledged on cross-examination that she actually never saw the note."

    additionally:
    "The mother of a sixteen year old girl scout stated in a telephone interview that her daughter had found the note in April of 1977 and gave the note to Mrs. Day.

    "It's my understanding," said the mother, "that the note was thought to be a prank by one of the girls and that it was simply thrown away."

    Wonder which it is???
    I'm trying to think back that far (ouch! my brain!), and four well may be the number. I was a bit startled when I read the Wiki account because I remembered the note, but didn't remember that a certain number had been predicted, just that the note referred to deaths to come. And it could well have been a prank, regardless of the number, I suppose. But that sort of coincidence I really have trouble accepting. Most of the details for the Wiki piece were, I think, taken directly from the main book on the subject, so the author may have had three, but it might have been more.


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  11. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by scriptgirl View Post
    But who was hushing up this murder and why, if that was the case?
    It wasn't about the murders; it was about the money. But it's not unlikely that the status quo wanted to keep publicity down about the former in a "this is not good for the state of Oklahoma, to be known for this" type of manner, and thus squelched the bid of the parents for justice.


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  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by believe09 View Post
    On the surface, I have a hard time believing the Hart connection simply because it is quite a switch to go from adult women to little girls, although he might have found them easier to victimize. It just seems like this crime was organized in a weird way-not impulsive....the murder was telegraphed in advance, the perps were selective (if even half of the stories of other scouts seeing men peeking in their tents was true), they brought all their materials and attempted to clean up the blood from the floor of the tent with sheets that they then stuffed into the sleeping bags??!!! The poor baby left by the tree was garotted...then they fled, but Hart left items he had stolen from the camp in his house???
    Good points all. Hart had, I think, raped two pregnant women---so perhaps in a weird, twisted way, he was violating babies all along, including the Scouts. At the time it happened, it all seemed, to me, way too convenient, though, to blame him.

    The OSBI still maintains it was him; from their website: "The evidence against Hart was extensive. Tape used to bind the victims, along with other physical evidence tying Hart to the scene of the crime was located in a nearby cave. Items from the campsite were found in the house where Hart was captured. An analysis of physical evidence, including sperm samples and other body fluids, revealed that only .0020% of the population met the unique characteristics contained in that evidence-including Hart."

    But I put little stock in state LE agencies in Oklahoma.

    http://www.ok.gov/osbi/History/1970_...t_Murders.html


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  15. #54
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    I remember this. I didnt remember the details but I was in girl scouts at the time and after this happened my father started going camping with us as a night watch person. He would sleep out by the fire in his sleeping bag. I think other fathers started doing this also in the area because the girl scout councel was really concerned about this not being random.
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  17. #55
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    The question on how big the tents were, I can answer.....The tents were on raised platforms and could fit I believe 4 girls. There was enough room for the girls to stand completely upright in them. So from the pictures I have seen of the tents that were at the camp, an adult male/female would have been able to move around inside the tent with no fear of taking it down. I used to have the link saved however lost it when I crashed my system, but if you google about the murders and also include pictures or images in your search it should pull up a few sites that have pictures of the camp on that June morning, the actual tent, and of the girls. ETA: Not pictures of the girls on the morning that they were found but of when they were still alive. Just wanted to clarify that.

    As for the OSBI having a new way of testing for DNA, that would be huge I would think because from the last that I have read they really did not have any good samples left to test. On top of that, they being LE released the girls belongings back to the parents after Hart was acquitted and if I recall IF the parents had not picked up the items they would have been thrown out. Yes, that one did boggle my mind. Throwing out evidence when the case was still open.

    In my opinion, I do not believe that Hart if he did commit these murders, did not act alone. I would like to know more on the counselors that were working at the girls site. I just can't believe that they would hear and if I recall correctly lights in the trees, moving as if someone was wondering, did not do anything about it. Again, I am basing what I know off of info that was from locals and that was going around at the time, but I always wondered if it was not an inside job.
    Last edited by mnegri1973; 11-28-2009 at 03:34 AM. Reason: clarification


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  19. #56
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    I continued to read last night and learned much more, which most of you covered here including the size of the tent and the OSBI position. I read that 3 of the 4-5 samples processed for DNA by my favorite group at the University of Texas came back to Hart. The legal definition of this is "inconclusive." One DNA sample was clearly from one of the children in terms of a major contribution, so it was difficult to get the Male contributor DNA out of the mix. It is also clear there was more than one assailant because of the multiple shoe prints-Hart's shoe size was not reflected in the casts-so I would be willing to go for the possible 3 person assailant theory...

    So I have to ask myself if one of the girls was targeted and the other two were, God forgive me, collateral damage? Hart was not in the tent, perhaps, the other two were killing the two children, then the three were taken out 100-150 yards away into the woods where the last innocent was attacked and killed...at least by two of the assailants? The only reason I think that is because she had two items around her neck...I read that the babies in the sleeping bags were tied in a fetal position. Were they SA as well?? I read stories that stated they were and stories that did not mention it.
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  21. #57
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    I thought I'd re-acquire "Someone Cry for the Children: The Unsolved Oklahoma Girl Scout Murders and the Case of Gene Leroy Hart" and further re-acquaint myself with the details of the case, but---ouch, prohibitive prices: Amazon and Alibris list many used copies, ranging in price from $29.99 to $99.99 for hardbacks, and paperbacks from $30 to about $80. The only new copy available: a paperback listing at an even $100.

    Premium prices like that indicate that high levels of interest still exist for this case, 28 years after the book was published and 32 years after the tragedy at Camp Scott.


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  23. #58
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    I am glad to see this thread active again. This case has always been one of my 'favorites' (for lack of a better word).

    I think there had to have been more than one perp. It is amazing to have THREE little girls murdered in a campground and no one hears anything! It would be very hard for one man to control three little girls and keep them all quiet.

    Here is a forum dedicated to the girls I have never seen before: http://girlscoutmurders.yuku.com/for...iscussion.html

    Here is the A&E Board which was posted earlier in the thread:
    http://boards.aetv.com/topic/Have-An...ders/100001959
    Last edited by gaia227; 11-30-2009 at 05:00 PM.
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  25. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by gaia227 View Post
    I am glad to see this thread active again. This case has always been one of my 'favorites' (for lack of a better word).

    I think there had to have been more than one perp. It is amazing to have THREE little girls murdered in a campground and no one hears anything! It would be very hard for one man to control three little girls and keep them all quiet.

    Here is a forum dedicated to the girls I have never seen before: http://girlscoutmurders.yuku.com/for...iscussion.html

    Here is the A&E Board which was posted earlier in the thread:
    http://boards.aetv.com/topic/Have-An...ders/100001959
    I stumbled upon the yuku site a couple of years ago!! It has a ton of info about the case and some really dedicated researchers. I recommend reading that site. :-)


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  27. #60
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    I am just reading up on this case and have no valuable insight as of right now. But this case just brought me back to a camp situation I experienced (I am a volunteer counselor at a summer camp) from.... 1992 I think? Could have been '93. The children in my cabin were girls aged about 9-12.
    My co-counselors and I came back from an all-camp evening activity one evening and found a note along with an audiotape, taped to the door of the cabin. It said something to the effect of a 'rising up' and that campers would kill or be killed by their counselors and there was a certain # mentioned. It was creepy enough that we immediately brought it to the camp directors- thinking prank- but also thinking no one in our camp group would play a prank like that. No one was ever hurt at our camp and we all eventually assumed it was perhaps simply a completely unfunny and inappropriate prank played by one of the actual camp 'workers' such as a kitchen or maintenance staff person.

    Now I am wondering. This happened in CT though.


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