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  1. #1
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    Help With a Source Please

    Just been told off at Crime Library for quoting an "urban legend" that Patsy used to take JB for a midnight toilet run.Can anyone, without going to any trouble,tell me where I might have seen this and if it came from the horses mouth so to speak.TIA,I dont like being told off

  2. #2
    Marie is offline Daughter, if you don't remember us...who will?
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    Patsy did not say that she woke JB up at midnight but she DID say that if she did not wake JB up to use the bathroom, JB would most likely wet the bed.

    It is in one of the police interviews:

    TT: Pretty much normal childhood diseases.
    PR: She would ten to have more respiratory kind of stuff.
    TT: And just on this, just a little bit, JonBenet wet the bed every once and awhile?
    PR: Yeah.
    TT: About how often would that occur?
    PR: Oh, maybe once a week or something.
    TT: Ok.
    PR: If I just didnít take her to the potty and make her go to the potty before bedtime, she very likely would wet the bed.
    TT: Ok. You have any idea about, has this been going on for how long? Any time that she broken and didnít have any bed wetting problems and then started back up or anything like that.
    PR: No, no, she just, I mean Iíve had her in pull-ups until very recently. I kind of thought it might be better, I mean pull-ups and those pamper things are so absorbent, that you canít you know, the child canít feel if theyíre wet or not. So I thought well it might just be better if she felt wet than beingÖ
    TT: (Inaudible)
    PR: Yeah. But she had a lot of dry nights, but she would wet the bed probably once a week.
    TT: When she wet the bed, would she come up and tell you guys, or would she just crawl onto the other bed, crawl into Burkeís spare bed, what was the routine if she actually wet the bed?
    PR: Well, ah, sometimes she would get up and get into the other bed or sometimes she really wouldnít wake up and until morning when she normally would wake up and maybe sheíd change her nightgown or something and Iíd find her things and pajamas in the bathroom floors andÖ
    TT: OK. Is this something you guys (inaudible) about at all?
    PR: No, cause I mean, all of, Burke wore pull-ups, you know till he was, at night, you know. Till he was fairly old. And Melinda was, we didnít even have pull-ups back then, she wet the bed till she was, I mean at least when we were married, she was 8 then. So I didnít see anything, and a lot of our friends, I mean, and Matthew use to wear pull-ups, you know, so Ö
    TT: So, it wasnít anything out of the ordinary.
    PR: Uh-huh, no.
    TT: OK. How did John feel about this, did he have any reason toÖ
    PR: I donít know if he even knew.
    TT: OK. This was something that you took care of?
    PR: Uh-huh.
    TT: OK. When JonBenet would wet the bed weekly, who took care of the sheets? Is that something Linda had to take care of? How often, I guess, who would even clean the sheets, to be more specific.
    PR: Well, she normally changed the beds weekly, but typically, it the, as seen as, you know I, Linda didnít come in till 9 oíclock But typically, I would strip the bed, you know, put them in the washer or something.


    Patsy Ramsey 1997

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by daffodil View Post
    Just been told off at Crime Library for quoting an "urban legend" that Patsy used to take JB for a midnight toilet run.Can anyone, without going to any trouble,tell me where I might have seen this and if it came from the horses mouth so to speak.TIA,I dont like being told off
    daffodil,
    Ask your detractors for their source, and do not allow others to bad-mouth you, well constructed theories and questions will always win the day, since more people are looking for the truth than lies.

  4. #4
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    Thanks both of you.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    daffodil,
    Ask your detractors for their source, and do not allow others to bad-mouth you, well constructed theories and questions will always win the day, since more people are looking for the truth than lies.
    whether they admit it or not.
    something to ponder:

    When the corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and the mortal have put on immortality, then shall we be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?

    The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
    But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    1 Corinthians 15:54-57

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by daffodil View Post
    Just been told off at Crime Library for quoting an "urban legend" that Patsy used to take JB for a midnight toilet run.Can anyone, without going to any trouble,tell me where I might have seen this and if it came from the horses mouth so to speak.TIA,I dont like being told off
    That's why I don't go there anymore. I actually posted a link to something..and got an infraction, because it wasn't a FACT. It was link that said that John at first read to JB that night, and then changed his story. Another poster, that also is a poster here....came up with another link for me....so there was more than one, but still I got an infraction. They are very biased, and you will find that the IDI's don't have to prove anything, but they expect the RDI's to provide a link to every single thing that they post. Totally unfair...
    "This time we get it right."

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by daffodil View Post
    Just been told off at Crime Library for quoting an "urban legend" that Patsy used to take JB for a midnight toilet run.Can anyone, without going to any trouble,tell me where I might have seen this and if it came from the horses mouth so to speak.TIA,I dont like being told off
    Well welcome to the club. You were probably insulted by someone who wouldn't know the definition of a fact if it were presented to them by Mr. Webster himself. These are not very bright people and combine that with probable mental disease and most of them should be in a bed with 10 doctors surrounding them.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solace View Post
    Well welcome to the club. You were probably insulted by someone who wouldn't know the definition of a fact if it were presented to them by Mr. Webster himself. These are not very bright people and combine that with probable mental disease and most of them should be in a bed with 10 doctors surrounding them.
    LOL.I read a bit there,it's absurd.I for one am middle age and don't wish to argue with kindergarteners,so I don't go there,or to,(I *think the other similar one is topix).I ignore the childish;if someone wants to post in a halfway decent manner,I will reply,but even that is getting iffy lately,as far as some IDI's choosing to post decently.
    something to ponder:

    When the corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and the mortal have put on immortality, then shall we be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?

    The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
    But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    1 Corinthians 15:54-57

  9. #9
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    Evening2 has been giving me a hard time lol.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by daffodil View Post
    Evening2 has been giving me a hard time lol.
    Don't know if you've read "Perfect Murder. Perfect Town." by Lawrence Schiller but here's a quotation from page 123, paperback:

    "Pam said that when her own daughter, Kristine, was small, she also used to wait until the last possible second and sometimes miscalculated. Patsy complained that JonBenet had frequent infections that were hard to clear up because her underpants were always wet. JonBenet would often fall asleep in her bedroom in front of the TV set, she said, and Patsy would wake her up at around midnight to make sure she used the bathroom. Sometimes Patsy was just in the nick of time, but sometimes she was too late."

    The above Pam is Pam Griffin. She was a seamstress who sewed many of JonBenet's pageant outfits (according to several sources, including the above cited book). Kristine is Pam's daughter and Kristine was also an older pageant girl. The book also tells us that Kristine was what I would interpret as a mentor for JonBenet when it came to supporting her in children's pageants.

    Interestingly, Patsy Ramsey's interview transcript supports this. Here is one extract:

    ST: Often times, according to Nedra and Pam and Paulie, uh, JonBenet fall asleep with a video in . . .

    PR: Um hum.
    ST: . . .um, and that would play until I guess it uh, exhausted itself . . .
    PR: Um hum.
    ST: . . .and somebody would turn it off, but on the night of the 25th uh, was that the case.
    PR: No.
    ST: No video? Uh, do you normally sleep with any radio or television on upstairs in the converted attic?
    PR: Uh sometimes John will put on a CD or something.
    ST: Did you fall asleep to . . .
    PR: You kind of fall asleep and then it clicks off or something.
    ST: Was that the case on the night of the 25th
    PR: I don’t remember.....
    (complete interview at http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/19...w-Complete.htm)

    There is more in the various interviews concerning bedtime habits. The crime scene photos also support the above in that some of them show JonBenet's pillow at the foot of her bed and her closet door open showing a television/VCR setup.

    Interesting stuff. You have my permission to cut and paste all the above and post it wherever you like. If you post it at Crime Library, tell them "Melungeon" sent you.



  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOESP View Post
    Don't know if you've read "Perfect Murder. Perfect Town." by Lawrence Schiller but here's a quotation from page 123, paperback:

    "Pam said that when her own daughter, Kristine, was small, she also used to wait until the last possible second and sometimes miscalculated. Patsy complained that JonBenet had frequent infections that were hard to clear up because her underpants were always wet. JonBenet would often fall asleep in her bedroom in front of the TV set, she said, and Patsy would wake her up at around midnight to make sure she used the bathroom. Sometimes Patsy was just in the nick of time, but sometimes she was too late."

    The above Pam is Pam Griffin. She was a seamstress who sewed many of JonBenet's pageant outfits (according to several sources, including the above cited book). Kristine is Pam's daughter and Kristine was also an older pageant girl. The book also tells us that Kristine was what I would interpret as a mentor for JonBenet when it came to supporting her in children's pageants.

    Interestingly, Patsy Ramsey's interview transcript supports this. Here is one extract:

    ST: Often times, according to Nedra and Pam and Paulie, uh, JonBenet fall asleep with a video in . . .
    PR: Um hum.
    ST: . . .um, and that would play until I guess it uh, exhausted itself . . .
    PR: Um hum.
    ST: . . .and somebody would turn it off, but on the night of the 25th uh, was that the case.
    PR: No.
    ST: No video? Uh, do you normally sleep with any radio or television on upstairs in the converted attic?
    PR: Uh sometimes John will put on a CD or something.
    ST: Did you fall asleep to . . .
    PR: You kind of fall asleep and then it clicks off or something.
    ST: Was that the case on the night of the 25th
    PR: I donít remember.....
    (complete interview at http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/19...w-Complete.htm)

    There is more in the various interviews concerning bedtime habits. The crime scene photos also support the above in that some of them show JonBenet's pillow at the foot of her bed and her closet door open showing a television/VCR setup.

    Interesting stuff. You have my permission to cut and paste all the above and post it wherever you like. If you post it at Crime Library, tell them "Melungeon" sent you.
    EXCELLENT BOESP. The wackados at CrimeLibrary will say they don't believe Pam Griffin. Even when someone there posted that Chet Ubowski did not think he had enough to go to trial, I posted from PM/PT and the page that Chet was prepared to testify - they simply ignored it. But they got the point. You know what I have to look at the pictures of her bedroom again because she does not look like she went to sleep that night. Also, Patsy did not even try to fix the bed up like someone slept in it. What are your thoughts on that? Why didn't she try to make the bed look like it was slept in. Possibly because JonBenet slept in a messy bed often, with clothes on it - and it was natural to Patsy?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by daffodil View Post
    Evening2 has been giving me a hard time lol.
    Evening2 is gone Daffodil and has no plans of returning. She will make something up at the moment to fit her scenario. When it was proven by Jayelles that the "Santa Bear" was given to JonBenet at one of her pageants (she posted the dialogue from the women who gave them out), Evening 2 said "no, MacReynolds came into the house that night and changed the bear's clothes to "Santa Claus" clothes. She is nuts. Seriously!

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solace View Post
    ... You know what I have to look at the pictures of her bedroom again because she does not look like she went to sleep that night. Also, Patsy did not even try to fix the bed up like someone slept in it. What are your thoughts on that? Why didn't she try to make the bed look like it was slept in. Possibly because JonBenet slept in a messy bed often, with clothes on it - and it was natural to Patsy?
    I'd speculate JonBenet may have been propped up on her pillow at the end of the bed watching a video, which was her usual custom. I can't think of a good reason that she wouldn't be allowed to do what she normally did. The idea about not watching the video because she had to get up early isn't sound, in my opinion, because JonBenet could have slept in the car and the airplane as they made their way to Charlevoix. Besides, after a hectic day, what better way to get your child to go to sleep that to let them watch a video and drift off. It's easy and it fits the routine.

    Continuing with that speculation, she either went to sleep and wet the bed or wet herself while awake, coupled with perhaps being belligerent when Patsy came downstairs to take her on the routine midnight potty run. Alternatively, Patsy may have been downstairs finishing up wrapping gifts and getting ready for the trip and along about midnight started to bed only to see JonBenet's VCR was playing and JonBenet was either belligerent about turning it off and/or had wet/soiled herself. Also, there were traces of blood found on the pillow in JonBenet's bedroom so I think that suggests she had at least used the pillow between the 24th and 25th, since Linda Pugh said the sheets were not the same as the ones Pugh put on the bed on the 23rd.

    I'm not sure how much disturbance a 45-pound child would make on sheets in a bed that is already messy. It is possible that if JonBenet had on pull-ups that JonBenet didn't get much urine on the bed so Patsy never had to change the sheets that night. It is also possible she did change them and then tried to put the bed back to a "normal" appearance. Since traces of creatine were found on the sheets I suspect the sheets had been changed after the 23rd but not necessarily the night of the 25th-26th.

    Everything stated above is based on my reading of the interviews/depo's/and the books by Thomas, Schiller, and the Ramseys. The interviews also ask a lot of questions about whether or not JonBenet could have been sleeping in Burke's bedroom.

    Regardless, I think the evidence shows that Patsy had an altercation with JonBenet that resulted in the accidental grievous head injury. I believe it is reasonable to assume, based on the interviews/depos/books that getting JonBenet to go to the bathroom for a clean-up is what precipitated the injury.

    I don't think JonBenet was molested for personal sexual gratification by another person. I don't think John Ramsey had anything to do with the head injury but I am on the fence about whether I believe the when and how of him becoming actively involved in the staging/cover-up. Of course, as I've said, I'd sure like to be wrong about my speculations but those transcripts sure tell a story, along with the autopsy and photos and my opinions here are based only on evidence in the public domain.

    The simple version is I believe Steve Thomas's theory holds more water than any other theory I've seen and he had access to the whole ball of wax concerning evidence.

    P.S. I think JonBenet had on pull-ups that night and I'm speculating that after the "accident" in the bedroom, she was carried downstairs in her white top and pj's but someone forgot to either put on a clean pull-up or forgot to put panties on JonBenet. I think that is when the size-12s came into play here.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOESP View Post
    I'd speculate JonBenet may have been propped up on her pillow at the end of the bed watching a video, which was her usual custom. I can't think of a good reason that she wouldn't be allowed to do what she normally did. The idea about not watching the video because she had to get up early isn't sound, in my opinion, because JonBenet could have slept in the car and the airplane as they made their way to Charlevoix. Besides, after a hectic day, what better way to get your child to go to sleep that to let them watch a video and drift off. It's easy and it fits the routine.

    Continuing with that speculation, she either went to sleep and wet the bed or wet herself while awake, coupled with perhaps being belligerent when Patsy came downstairs to take her on the routine midnight potty run. Alternatively, Patsy may have been downstairs finishing up wrapping gifts and getting ready for the trip and along about midnight started to bed only to see JonBenet's VCR was playing and JonBenet was either belligerent about turning it off and/or had wet/soiled herself. Also, there were traces of blood found on the pillow in JonBenet's bedroom so I think that suggests she had at least used the pillow between the 24th and 25th, since Linda Pugh said the sheets were not the same as the ones Pugh put on the bed on the 23rd.

    I'm not sure how much disturbance a 45-pound child would make on sheets in a bed that is already messy. It is possible that if JonBenet had on pull-ups that JonBenet didn't get much urine on the bed so Patsy never had to change the sheets that night. It is also possible she did change them and then tried to put the bed back to a "normal" appearance. Since traces of creatine were found on the sheets I suspect the sheets had been changed after the 23rd but not necessarily the night of the 25th-26th.

    Everything stated above is based on my reading of the interviews/depo's/and the books by Thomas, Schiller, and the Ramseys. The interviews also ask a lot of questions about whether or not JonBenet could have been sleeping in Burke's bedroom.

    Regardless, I think the evidence shows that Patsy had an altercation with JonBenet that resulted in the accidental grievous head injury. I believe it is reasonable to assume, based on the interviews/depos/books that getting JonBenet to go to the bathroom for a clean-up is what precipitated the injury.

    I don't think JonBenet was molested for personal sexual gratification by another person. I don't think John Ramsey had anything to do with the head injury but I am on the fence about whether I believe the when and how of him becoming actively involved in the staging/cover-up. Of course, as I've said, I'd sure like to be wrong about my speculations but those transcripts sure tell a story, along with the autopsy and photos and my opinions here are based only on evidence in the public domain.

    The simple version is I believe Steve Thomas's theory holds more water than any other theory I've seen and he had access to the whole ball of wax concerning evidence.

    P.S. I think JonBenet had on pull-ups that night and I'm speculating that after the "accident" in the bedroom, she was carried downstairs in her white top and pj's but someone forgot to either put on a clean pull-up or forgot to put panties on JonBenet. I think that is when the size-12s came into play here.
    Excellent, excellent post. I love reading posts that are so logical and easy for anyone to understand. There is so much to absorb in this case that it really does take a while to get all of it and then when one gets pretty much the gist of the case, they have to tune it up and get the odds and ends that give credence to this theory and you do it every time. I knew I had read about the midnight run that Patsy spoke about, but I never really put it together with the scene of the crime until you played it out for me. Humans are creatures of habit and there is no reason why Patsy would stop this routine on this night and you brought that solidly into play in the past BOESP. It is interesting that Patsy says the events of that day are vivid in her mind. They are just not vivid when asked by Steve Thomas or Haney.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solace View Post
    Evening2....is nuts. Seriously!
    She's been more psycho than usual lately too, more aggressive and confrontational than her average level of disagreeable...which is actually saying a lot.

    Daffodil, it's great to see you at CL! Strap on your stainless steel girdle and don't let them nasty alley cats run you off.

    Don't give E2 any attention other than to point out her obvious holes. Otherwise she's just going to antagonize you, waiting for a chance to report you and gloat over getting a post of yours deleted. I know from my many months of E2 experience. She's got some serious mental problems.

    Like Solace, I loved and agree with most if not all of your post, BOESP. Excellent. Great minds think alike, ladies.

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