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Thread: British student murdered in Perugia, 3 suspects

  1. #626
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    Quote Originally Posted by gitana1 View Post
    Isabella said "some" Americans take the position that she was railroaded. Also, I think she stated she was reading other boards which were lambasting Italy for it's decision. I don't think she's directing her comments to all Americans or to everyone on this board.

    Bottom line, however, we Americans have the reputation around the world as a racist nation. Modern Europeans were very appalled and confused by segregation/Jim Crow laws, the images of civil rights protesters being hosed by LE, etc.. So, that has shaped their sentiment.
    On going news about the KKK, hate crimes, Susan Smith type incidents, that kind of thing, helps shape European's views, rightly or wrongly, that we would rather have some black guy accused than a young white girl from the U.S..
    Add to that a reputation for arrogance and imperialist zeal that we have in other countries and it makes sense why people in other nations believe we would refuse to accept the ruling of any foreign government on an American's guilt or innocence, regardless of evidence. I can't speak for Isabella and am not trying to but I can see the what people in other countries view as the motivation behind American protests of AK's innocence.
    Good post

    What annoyed me today was Amandas Senator saying he wants to talk to Hilary because he/she thinks the verdict was reached because the Italians are against Americans and yet her co-accused was an Italian. IMO they are just stirring up racial hatred against the Italians
    LEE: When I say I know my sister, I can
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    like my sister as far as how we would react.


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  3. #627
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    Quote Originally Posted by missyjane77 View Post
    I for one think that she did not get a fair trial, the evidence did not indicate her guilty of murder and a huge injustice has occurred. I guess living in America, I expect certain things to be followed for a trial, but that doesn't happen in Italy.

    I think from the time the investigators said "case closed", she was screwed.

    The Italians expect justice to served. I thought living in America you would expect the same.

    And no it was Meredith who was screwed for having the misfortune to share a home with her
    LEE: When I say I know my sister, I can
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    like my sister as far as how we would react.


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  5. #628
    Quote Originally Posted by Isabella View Post
    Good post

    What annoyed me today was Amandas Senator saying he wants to talk to Hilary because he/she thinks the verdict was reached because the Italians are against Americans and yet her co-accused was an Italian. IMO they are just stirring up racial hatred against the Italians
    Here is the Senator's statement:

    http://cantwell.senate.gov/news/record.cfm?id=320475

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  7. #629
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mia View Post
    Wow, all I'm hearing on this thread since the verdict is "poor Amanda" and "how can we get her sentence shortened?" Uh, what about Meredith, you know, the victim of a horrible, slow murder?

    I also wonder if pro-Amanda posters' opinions of her would be different if Meredith had been American too.

    Amanda is guilty, so is her boyfriend. The Italian justice system works just fine. Everyone is saying it sucks because they're used to the American justice system. Of course you like what is familiar and what you are used to. But the American way is not the only way, and the Italian justice system has been working just fine, and for many more years than America has been in existence.

    Justice for Meredith was served tonight. I'm pleased.

    I just wanted to say thank you for this post and i totally agree
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  9. #630
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brwnigirl View Post
    Sorry I am late to this case and am confused about a few things.

    1. Are there any links to the testimony of the person who has previously been charged and convicted as to what he says about Amanda and her b/f's involvement or can someone just catch me up on what he said.

    2. Any info on Amanda's boss. He has been cleared but wondering what his take on Amanda was. Did he think she did it?

    3. Do Meredith's parents think these two are guilty?

    Thanks!!!!

    Patrick Lumbaba ( the guy she tried to frame) sat behind Merediths sister as the results came in and as she sat weeping he put his hand on her shoulder.

    Merediths family believe Knox and her ex bf are guilty yes and have made a statement saying the courts made the right decision
    LEE: When I say I know my sister, I can
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    like my sister as far as how we would react.


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  11. #631
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    Quote Originally Posted by Columbo View Post
    And what about the virulent anti-Semitism, mainly in Central Europe, that made it easy for Hitler to carry out his evil plan; and even when WWII ended, after 6 million or more people were slaughtered in concentration camps, the citizens of these countries still were killing the Jews who managed to survive, and making life difficult for them. From what I understand, this attitude still exists today (to some extent).
    Like where exactly and in what way?
    LEE: When I say I know my sister, I can
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  12. #632
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    Quote Originally Posted by iluvmua View Post
    I also think that the reason why many people think she's innocent is because she may have not been the one who delivered the fatal blow to Meredith, therefore, if she did not actually murder Meredith then she can not possibly be guilty and also the DNA evidence that everyone claims is not there.
    I am sorry but if she was there and involved..whether she did the fatal blow is irrelevant she would still be guilty because she was part of the attack on Meredith.
    LEE: When I say I know my sister, I can
    say that because I know how I would react. I'm a lot
    like my sister as far as how we would react.


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  14. #633
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    Quote Originally Posted by missyjane77 View Post
    As I have said earlier, I am choosing to keep my reasons to myself as I do not wish to get into a war of words nor do I feel like being attacked. I haven't said she's not guilty of SOMETHING, I just don't think she's guilty of murder.
    Greetings Well, that's what brings me here. I did not follow the case and plead ignorrance but I've seen some talking heads who seem respectable to me expressing concern and citing a lack of evidence or contaminated evidence, media bias, contaminated jury, social pressure for a guilty verdict, possibly. ANYWAYS...I know nothing yet, but I'm about to do a little reading on this thread...peace, all...


    “In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by arielilane View Post
    I have followed this case closely and agree with you and others who think Amanda got screwed. Actually screwed is not even the word for it…this is her life we are talking about. I have felt all along this would be the end result and yes, I am angry at her parents as well to let this go on all this time “thinking that there would be any other outcome.”

    If it had been a Middle Eastern country rather than Italy – would people view it differently?

    Ok i want to put a question to you now. I am English. I am using Neil Entwhistle as an example cause hes the only Brit i can think of in prison there at the moment. But after his trial how would you like it if the Brits said after the trial he only got found guilty because they hate us over there? Or that we thought the cops framed him? Or that we thought he had no chance of a fair trial? Or hey America isnt England so it cant be a fair trial?

    I want to stress i have every confidence in the American courts and that i thought he was guilty but im just using that as an example.

    I just think the crap the Italians are getting for daring to find Amanda guilty is crazy. And you know something..the local people..for which her co-accused was one...actually CHEERED the verdict and prosecutors. There not standing there making excuses at all. It's funny how it goes.

    Oh and as for would it be viewed differently if it was in the middle East sure. She probably would have ended up the same way as Meredith as a sentence. Dead!
    LEE: When I say I know my sister, I can
    say that because I know how I would react. I'm a lot
    like my sister as far as how we would react.


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  18. #635
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    Quote Originally Posted by missyjane77 View Post
    I wonder what the numbers were for the verdict. I mean, it's majority vote, so how many voted guilty, how many voted innocent.

    I wish it had to be unanimous like it is here.

    I have a feeling they all agreed from what was said on our tv.
    LEE: When I say I know my sister, I can
    say that because I know how I would react. I'm a lot
    like my sister as far as how we would react.


    John Morgan: I can tell.

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    I see so much focus in the pro-Amanda articles about the DNA on the knife and how Meredith's DNA was destroyed as a result of the testing, but to me that's the least convincing part of the case.

    Her confession and her lies and the blame-casting and her behavior after the fact just isn't consistent with an innocent person. And while most of that is completely circumstansial, I can't reconcile all of it with her innocence. It's like "Yes, this is weak and this is weak and that's not a smoking gun and this could have been coerced" but there's enough in concert to make brushing all of it away seem almost denial-esque.

    It's certainly a tough one, but after reading other boards I come away thinking that so many of Amanda's biggest supporters are basing their support not in the fact that they don't believe unequivocally in her innocence, but because they can't trust in Italy's objectivity. Which is fair, I guess, but it's making it this 'us v. them' thing that has nothing to do with the crime. I think this crime, committed in America and tried in America, would be widely seen as less confounding. I have to admit that any language barrier I see is my own. It's harder to follow when the proceedings are in another language and you don't trust the press. The U.S. press is really giving her such a soft ride.

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  21. #637
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    Quote Originally Posted by missyjane77 View Post

    I this is just irresponsible " I am saddened by the verdict and I have serious questions about the Italian justice system and whether anti-Americanism tainted this trial "

    and about this

    "Other flaws in the Italian justice system on display in this case included the harsh treatment of Ms. Knox following her arrest; negligent handling of evidence by investigators;

    Again there is no proof that she was harshly treated. In fact there is no record of this as Amanda didnt put in a complaint or anything about this or have any photos taken to prove her claim"
    LEE: When I say I know my sister, I can
    say that because I know how I would react. I'm a lot
    like my sister as far as how we would react.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Columbo View Post
    And what about the virulent anti-Semitism, mainly in Central Europe, that made it easy for Hitler to carry out his evil plan; and even when WWII ended, after 6 million or more people were slaughtered in concentration camps, the citizens of these countries still were killing the Jews who managed to survive, and making life difficult for them. From what I understand, this attitude still exists today (to some extent).
    Agreed, Columbo, totally & wholly. I was just thinking of very contemporary examples in relation to this trial & perceived prejudices. But you have demonstrated that though we have progressed some, we've still got a very long way to go as a species (Google BNP or La Front Nationale and you'll see what I mean. And we all know there are far too many more such diabolical groups in the world).
    'Curiosity is, in great and generous minds, the first passion and the last.' Dr Samuel Johnson

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  25. #639
    Quote Originally Posted by Isabella View Post
    I have a feeling they all agreed from what was said on our tv.
    Is there a news source stating that that you can point me to?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MomofBoys View Post
    I see so much focus in the pro-Amanda articles about the DNA on the knife and how Meredith's DNA was destroyed as a result of the testing, but to me that's the least convincing part of the case.

    Her confession and her lies and the blame-casting and her behavior after the fact just isn't consistent with an innocent person. And while most of that is completely circumstansial, I can't reconcile all of it with her innocence. It's like "Yes, this is weak and this is weak and that's not a smoking gun and this could have been coerced" but there's enough in concert to make brushing all of it away seem almost denial-esque.

    It's certainly a tough one, but after reading other boards I come away thinking that so many of Amanda's biggest supporters are basing their support not in the fact that they don't believe unequivocally in her innocence, but because they can't trust in Italy's objectivity. Which is fair, I guess, but it's making it this 'us v. them' thing that has nothing to do with the crime. I think this crime, committed in America and tried in America, would be widely seen as less confounding. I have to admit that any language barrier I see is my own. It's harder to follow when the proceedings are in another language and you don't trust the press. The U.S. press is really giving her such a soft ride.
    Good post
    LEE: When I say I know my sister, I can
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    like my sister as far as how we would react.


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    Quote Originally Posted by missyjane77 View Post
    Is there a news source stating that that you can point me to?

    I said that i have a feeling - not that i knew for sure. It was on a news programme earlier where a Italian guy ( maybe prosecutor i dont know) was saying that the jury had agreed..
    LEE: When I say I know my sister, I can
    say that because I know how I would react. I'm a lot
    like my sister as far as how we would react.


    John Morgan: I can tell.

  28. #642
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isabella View Post
    I agree there is a difference in where you come from on whether you believe the verdict or not. It seems to me..that Americans..or some would rather put all the blame on a black guy from the Ivory Coast rather than accept a American girl could have been involved in this. And then because she is..then its like well Amandas not guilty its just the Italians are corrupt blah blah blah.
    I completely disagree with this. I think we all know that cute, sweet AMERICAN girls can be evil. This isn't about blaming it on a "black guy from the Ivory Coast" at all. It is about the case and the evidence and the way the evidence was handled. Your comments really rubbed me the wrong way, but, just like me, you are entitled to your opinion.

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  30. #643
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    Quote Originally Posted by justbeachy View Post
    I completely disagree with this. I think we all know that cute, sweet AMERICAN girls can be evil. This isn't about blaming it on a "black guy from the Ivory Coast" at all. It is about the case and the evidence and the way the evidence was handled. Your comments really rubbed me the wrong way, but, just like me, you are entitled to your opinion.

    In all honesty im only basing my opinion on comments ive read on different forums. I didnt say that all Americans thought that way because i know for a fact many dont.
    LEE: When I say I know my sister, I can
    say that because I know how I would react. I'm a lot
    like my sister as far as how we would react.


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  32. #644
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    On a lighter note: the reporters continuously referred to Amanda as a blue-eyed blonde. She's a brunette!!! Or am I color-blind?!?

    This is of absolutely no importance. Just something that annoyed me.

    Carry on.

  33. #645
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    Quote Originally Posted by justbeachy View Post
    On a lighter note: the reporters continuously referred to Amanda as a blue-eyed blonde. She's a brunette!!! Or am I color-blind?!?

    This is of absolutely no importance. Just something that annoyed me.

    Carry on.
    On some photos of her when she was in America her hair looked a lot lighter but in court she was definetly dark. Very dark even.
    LEE: When I say I know my sister, I can
    say that because I know how I would react. I'm a lot
    like my sister as far as how we would react.


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  34. #646
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    Quote Originally Posted by kitbits View Post
    And the irony is that Europeans can be just as racist! I'm thinking of, oh, I don't know...Spanish football fans who black up & heckle Afro-Caribbean players on several occasions. I'm thinking of, oh, say Jean-Marie le Pen & his National Front or the British National Party (BNP). And let me not forget co-workers who use terms like 'Paki' or 'Chinky'...UGH!!!!!

    I could go on, but you get the picture.

    Just because there are no Jim Crow laws, etc, doesn't mean that racist and stereotypical behaviours aren't rampant, and that's true for any country. Europe isn't always the enlightened utopia it likes to make itself out to be. And I'm saying this as an American ex-pat living in the UK, btw.

    However, having said that, I am not disagreeing with you. Just pointing out my personal observations over the past several years.
    Just a couple of things i want to say about your post quickly. Yes the "Paki" word was used a lot 20 or so years ago. Until 8 years ago i lived in a city very populated with Asians. There was over 10 thousand apparently. I never once heard the word paki in all the time i lived there and in addition you can get taken to court for calling someone that.

    Regarding the BNP that is just a small minority group in Britain that are total morons and should be banned. I think some of the problems we have here at the moment are causing unrest so more join them thinking they have a point. But really they dont
    LEE: When I say I know my sister, I can
    say that because I know how I would react. I'm a lot
    like my sister as far as how we would react.


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  36. #647
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emily Booth View Post
    I've been following this crime since day one when it was posted at Steve Huff's blog. We had an international group of commenters following this crime back then. I'm very happy w/ the verdict. The Italians arrived at the correct conclusion. Justice was served.
    I did too Emily and remember posting with you there.

    Guilty. Guilty. Guilty. I agree. I am glad for this verdict.
    This bee my opinion

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  38. #648
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    Quote Originally Posted by kitbits View Post
    And the irony is that Europeans can be just as racist! I'm thinking of, oh, I don't know...Spanish football fans who black up & heckle Afro-Caribbean players on several occasions. I'm thinking of, oh, say Jean-Marie le Pen & his National Front or the British National Party (BNP). And let me not forget co-workers who use terms like 'Paki' or 'Chinky'...UGH!!!!!

    I could go on, but you get the picture.

    Just because there are no Jim Crow laws, etc, doesn't mean that racist and stereotypical behaviours aren't rampant, and that's true for any country. Europe isn't always the enlightened utopia it likes to make itself out to be. And I'm saying this as an American ex-pat living in the UK, btw.

    However, having said that, I am not disagreeing with you. Just pointing out my personal observations over the past several years.
    I'm with you. My parents are from Europe so I am well aware of the history of racism there as well. Le Pen in particular galls me.
    However, in the last fifty years or so, Europe did not have the same kind of state-sanctioned laws based on race that we did.
    That is now starting to change due to an anti-immigrant backlash over there. For example, a new-nazi party is getting a toe-hold in Hungarian politics at present.
    Nevertheless, we are known as a racist nation in a blatant way by other countries. In Western Europe, blacks were not discriminated against legally as they were here (except in Germany), during the height of U.S. segregation.
    As a side note, Spaniards are about as un-PC as anyone can get. Nicknames are given often based on physical or other characteristics such as "Gordo" or fatty and "Juan el enano" or John the dwarf. They often use race in jest in a way that would appall modern Americans but they would not dream of actual discrimination or hate crimes, etc, for the most part and are sickened by what they perceive to be on-going racism a la the lack of response to poor and/or black victims of hurricane Katrina.
    So, I understand the reputation we have over there and why they may feel we would rather have some black guy found accused than a cute, white American girl.
    Tha being said, I do not believe that is the primary motivation for many who support AK's innocence.
    For Travis Alexander, a human being. Justice will prevail.


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  40. #649
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mia View Post
    Yes, the mafia is from Italy and has been prevalent there over the years, as it has been here. But to say the Italian justice system has not attempted to control the problem the best they can (with the evidence available) and prosecute those responsible for mafia crimes is just not true. After the Ciaculli massacre, in 1963, right around the time of what is considered to be the 'first big mafia war' when a bunch of policemen were killed trying to defuse a car bomb actually meant for another mobster, almost 2000 mafioso were arrested, charged and convicted of thousands of crimes. Then in 1967 there was the huge trial of mafioso which centered on their involvement in the heroin trade (though admittedly evidence was very thin and all were acquitted). More recently there was the Maxi trial, in the mid 80s, which resulted in over 300 convictions of mafioso. Heck, in the 1920s Mussolini sent one of his top commanders to Sicily to combat the problems with the mafia, and the guy he sent was known for his tough-as-nails, iron-fisted tactics against mafioso. And these are only a couple of examples.

    Just because the mafia came from Italy does NOT mean the Italian officials have just allowed the violence and racketeering to go on - the Italian government, over the years, has spent a mint trying to combat these criminals. No, they haven't 'solved' the problem yet, but has America 'solved' the drug problem here? No. That doesn't mean America isn't trying to fight it as best they can though. (Not that I believe the drug war does any good at all, and I'm for legalization/non-criminalization, but that's another story and entirely off-topic).

    Finally, to compare the problem of the mafioso to Amanda Knox being convicted is ludicrous. One is a very sophisticated, clandestine group of very organized criminals with a wealth of money at their hands, the other a young female who murdered her roommate. Though they are/were, I guess, both dealt with by Italy's justice system, it makes no sense to say BECAUSE Italy's justice system has not been successful in eradicating the mafia THEN that same justice system must be entirely incompetent when trying Amanda Knox in the murder of Meredith Kercher.

    ETA: Where are all the people sticking up for the boyfriend Sollecito? He's a young person just starting out in life, just like Amanda. Where's the sympathy for him? Oh wait, there is none, because he's not American. If Amanda was "railroaded" because she is American, that means Italy "railroaded" Sollecito...why? Because he's Italian? Really?
    Pretty good points made, especially the last paragraph. Sollecito is one of their own and yet he too was convicted. Makes one wonder.
    For Travis Alexander, a human being. Justice will prevail.


    *Gitana (means "Gypsy girl"). Pronounced "hee tah nah."

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  42. #650
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    Originally Posted by Isabella
    I agree there is a difference in where you come from on whether you believe the verdict or not. It seems to me..that Americans..or some would rather put all the blame on a black guy from the Ivory Coast rather than accept a American girl could have been involved in this. And then because she is..then its like well Amandas not guilty its just the Italians are corrupt blah blah blah.

    Quote Originally Posted by [B
    justbeachy[/B];4527717]I completely disagree with this. I think we all know that cute, sweet AMERICAN girls can be evil. This isn't about blaming it on a "black guy from the Ivory Coast" at all. It is about the case and the evidence and the way the evidence was handled. Your comments really rubbed me the wrong way, but, just like me, you are entitled to your opinion.
    IMHO you are both correct because all types of people exist and their views will differ, Yes many will say the black guy, and other will say the evidence is not there....but knowing the code of law in that region is key. I do not know it but, seems that accessory to murder is punishable same as murder in the first degree. So they all got a very similar verdict.

    I have not followed the case throughout the 2 years, but only in the very beginning and end. so I am not knowing how they came about a verdict. but it seems to me that many feel it was not a well done job and as a result justice was not served.
    But if all 3 were participating on some level regardless as to who did the deed? they are all punished. I am just saying, and I am sure many are outraged especially her family.

    RIP Meridith
    Last edited by songline; 12-05-2009 at 09:06 PM.
    Women are Angels.
    And when someone breaks our wings,
    we simply continue to fly... on a broomstick.

    We're flexible like that.

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