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  1. #1101
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    Tizzle are we supposed to think that Meredith sat in the apt at 9 pm or so while the perp broke not one but TWO windows??

    and clambered up the grill...and then hoisted himself in? she could have called 112..ran out...or just pushed him off the window ledge

    did she hear one window break and then wait to hear the next one break??

    two broken windows>>> overdone attempt to make it seem like a break in IMHO


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  3. #1102
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    Quote Originally Posted by SleuthyGal View Post
    In my first post or 2 on this thread I brought up the knife and asked how it was determined it was cleaned by bleach? (i.e. tested and verified?). And how did AK's and MK's DNA survive on the knife if it was cleaned by bleach and 'scrubbed'? AK's DNA on the knife is not that big of a deal since she was at RS's and used the knife. MK's DNA = big deal. One forensic expert in the U.S. said the MK evidence on that knife didn't cause a positive hit for blood and the blood test is more sensitive and requires less evidence than that for a DNA test. I have no idea if this is true but it's what I heard one of the DNA experts say on TV. Was the DNA test on the knife repeated? How confident are experts on the results? Which DNA test was run (I never heard).

    Again, I'm NOT saying that AK is innocent! I'm just trying to examine the evidence. (I feel I need to repeat this in every single post I make since people keep thinking I'm defending AK and saying she didn't do the crime).
    BBM Haha, cute disclaimer.

    From what I understand, the alleged DNA of Meredith on the knife was tested into non-existance and has never officially been verified as 100% hers. Even if it was MK's DNA, isn't it possible that it was transferred by AK as a result of them being roommates, i.e. skin cells? I'm not saying this is what happened, I'm asking if it's possible?

    Not to mention, the knife has never even been identified as the murder weapon, for sure. I've heard it COULD be consistent with the murder weapon but have never seen anywhere where it's said that it is DEFINITELY the knife used. I've never seen evidence where it definitely matches the weapon used but have seen evidence where it is ruled out as the weapon used.

    There are just SO MANY inconsistencies, I really don't see how some are so convinced of A&R'S guilt. It's so difficult to distinguish the gossip from the real information. I just can't believe this doesn't bother more people than it does.


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  5. #1103
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    Quote Originally Posted by LogicalMinds View Post
    Tizzle are we supposed to think that Meredith sat in the apt at 9 pm or so while the perp broke not one but TWO windows??

    and clambered up the grill...and then hoisted himself in? she could have called 112..ran out...or just pushed him off the window ledge

    did she hear one window break and then wait to hear the next one break??

    two broken windows>>> overdone attempt to make it seem like a break in IMHO
    I have seen nothing other than your posts that suggests MK's window was broken, too.

    But, if hers was broken, too....

    Possibility:

    Gained entry through window in Filomena's room, possibly.
    Meredith's window broken during struggle, possibly.


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  7. #1104
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    Here's why I would convict AK if I were a juror. (In no particular order)

    The ludicrous mop story

    The obvious cleanup and staged robbery.

    She doesn't have a firm alibi for that night.

    She's told a lot of stories that have nothing to do with the truth. If she was coerced I think it would have been one story only.

    She implicated an innocent man.

    A person testified that she had pulled a knife on her the day before the murder. I wasn't there and so I have no first hand knowledge of his credibility but it's enough to make me scratch my chin.

    The shopkeeper that identified her in court as the girl in his shop at 7:45am after the murder. When she claims she was at her BF's house. (I'll ignore the receipt since it appears it was never entered into evidence.)

    The fact that she was given a translator after one hour of her questioning. By her own words.

    The email she sent to friends.

    They found a footprint going toward Meredith's room and away from Meredith's room matching her size.

    She not only lied about Lumuba verbally but she also signed a statement attesting to her verbal story.

    Two prosecutors were working the corrupt Mignini and a woman named Manuela Comodi who appears to be clean.

    The bra clasp that was sealed in her room for two weeks has RS's DNA on it. DNA doesn't get on a piece of evidence very easily. I've seen cases in which DNA has been tested 20 years or so after the initial finding.

    Sollecito's lies to police.

    The Knox's hired a PR firm.

    That's some. I think I need a nap.

    To be continued.




    I reserve the right to add or subtract things from this list in future posts, this all seems credible to me now.


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  9. #1105
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    My guess is that this wasn't just a murder but a case of torture and then murder. I find it hard to believe the three of them each had a one third share in what happened. Which means one of them will some day think they stand on a higher moral ground than the other two and want to make sure people know that.

    Nobody can say anything now because of the appeal process.


  10. #1106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tizzle View Post
    Yes, indeed I have seen pictures of the house. They were in the link I mentioned with the demonstration of how someone could do it...Did you see?



    Yes, I had one true story and stuck to it, but was only at the police station for a total of two hours with a total of about 45 minutes of questioning and wasn't coerced or pressured or lead in any way. We don't know whether or not Amanda was since there isn't a video recording of any portions of her interrogation, that we know of. There is video of mine.

    You may believe that her post trauma embrace "sounds" different than mine, but in fact it wasn't, really. Quite similar, actually. I was only a witness to the shooting and extremely terrified. I didn't cry or act out. I remained as calm as possible but I'm sure the distress was easily read on my face. I read that on AK's face during her now famous embrace. JMO

    Also, I remember being highly anxious in the police station and getting up and walking around the room more than once because sitting still in that chair was wearing on my nerves. I didn't do cartwheels, no, because I'm not a gymnast, but I did stretch and walk around to keep my mind busy in any way. Again, I was only there 2 hours. We couldn't go home afterwards, of course. We stayed at his parents house and held each other TIGHT all night long.

    Another point, my father died when I was young and I was very close to him. It was the most horrendous loss of my life. I didn't cry. I went numb. Some people deal with grief this way. I did.

    JMO
    BBM. for what it's worth, I would guess she may feel distressed being at the police station after slaughtering her room mate too.

    I am sorry for what you had to go through, it must have been devastating. I know it would be for me.

    for the record I would like to say I wish I could see court transcripts. I do believe we are all getting different stories (I am in the UK, although american, so take that for what it's worth as well)....

    .....because while I do think amanda and rafaele were involved, I am also not convinced by the evidence that I am aware of.

    which is funny cause I actually thought they would walk, although they were truly guilty. I still feel unsure there was enough evidence to convict.


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  12. #1107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert18 View Post
    My guess is that this wasn't just a murder but a case of torture and then murder. I find it hard to believe the three of them each had a one third share in what happened. Which means one of them will some day think they stand on a higher moral ground than the other two and want to make sure people know that.

    Nobody can say anything now because of the appeal process.
    Good point. I believe that could turn out to be RS.
    The Seeker / Sports Freak /


  13. #1108
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    I want to thank those of you who are willing to discuss the evidence in this case. Since I've come to the case late in the game, as it were, I'm doing a lot of catch-up.

    I read the following in Clint Van Zant's blog about the case:

    The mixed blood evidence.

    Knox’s blood and the blood of the victim were allegedly found comingled in multiple places around the crime scene, to include the bathroom, in one of the bedrooms and in the hallway.


    Okay now THAT is compelling if true. It would be difficult to come up with an innocent scenario to explain each and every combined blood stain of MK mixed with AK.

    That's the kind of evidence I look for (in a bloody crime scene) to indicate and prove a specific person was at the scene of the crime and interacted in some way with the victim, their blood and/or the scene. The bathroom alone is hinky but not as compelling (IMHO) as a mixture of blood found in one of the roommate's rooms. We know AK used that bathroom regularly.
    Last edited by SleuthyGal; 12-08-2009 at 05:01 PM.


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  15. #1109
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    Someone upstream asked me to name my source that the defense was denied independent review of the DNA evidence.

    I found it. It is from Andrea Vogt's Oct 9, 2009 report:

    An Italian jury rejected Amanda Knox’s multiple requests for an independent review of contested evidence Friday, bringing the end in sight to the Seattle student’s contentious murder trial....

    Lawyers for Knox and Sollecito, asked the court to approve an independent review of several contested pieces of forensic evidence, most notably the kitchen knife with Knox’s DNA on the handle and what prosecutor’s argue is the Kercher’s on the blade, and a bra clasp with Sollecito’s DNA.

    Knox’s lawyers also asked for a review of the luminol-enhanced footprints, the mark on the pillowcase that the prosecution argued was a woman’s shoeprint, but which the defense argues is simply a bloody crease, and several other traces of DNA found in the flat Knox and Kercher shared....

    The Kercher family’s attorney, Francesco Maresca of Florence, argued, however, that the court already had plenty of material to review. “We all know that in all trials of this nature there are different analyses of forensic evidence made by the various expert witnesses,” he said. “The court must now consider the seriousness and integrity of the experts’ testimony.”

    Prosecutor Manuela Comodi went a step farther, saying while she did not believe a review was necessary, she would she would “almost be pleased” to see the results with regard to the prosecution’s footprint expert analysis.

    The eight-member jury, which includes two professional judges, flatly rejected all defense requests at 9:30 p.m. after deliberating just under two hours.


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  17. #1110
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    Quote Originally Posted by SleuthyGal View Post
    Someone upstream asked me to name my source that the defense was denied independent review of the DNA evidence.

    I found it. It is from Andrea Vogt's Oct 9, 2009 report:

    An Italian jury rejected Amanda Knox’s multiple requests for an independent review of contested evidence Friday, bringing the end in sight to the Seattle student’s contentious murder trial....

    Lawyers for Knox and Sollecito, asked the court to approve an independent review of several contested pieces of forensic evidence, most notably the kitchen knife with Knox’s DNA on the handle and what prosecutor’s argue is the Kercher’s on the blade, and a bra clasp with Sollecito’s DNA.

    Knox’s lawyers also asked for a review of the luminol-enhanced footprints, the mark on the pillowcase that the prosecution argued was a woman’s shoeprint, but which the defense argues is simply a bloody crease, and several other traces of DNA found in the flat Knox and Kercher shared....

    The Kercher family’s attorney, Francesco Maresca of Florence, argued, however, that the court already had plenty of material to review. “We all know that in all trials of this nature there are different analyses of forensic evidence made by the various expert witnesses,” he said. “The court must now consider the seriousness and integrity of the experts’ testimony.”

    Prosecutor Manuela Comodi went a step farther, saying while she did not believe a review was necessary, she would she would “almost be pleased” to see the results with regard to the prosecution’s footprint expert analysis.

    The eight-member jury, which includes two professional judges, flatly rejected all defense requests at 9:30 p.m. after deliberating just under two hours.
    BBM

    It appears they asked for the forensic review after the jury had started deliberations. I'm not surprised it was rejected.


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  19. #1111
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    All of this comes from; http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/C356/

    BBM

    [Note: The following paragraph numbers form no part of Micheli’s report. They are used in the context of this summary to identify the points of evidence contained in his report which will be examined and summarised in greater detail in follow-up posts]

    1) Judge Micheli, after hearing both prosecution and defense arguments about Meredith’s and Amanda’s DNA on the knife and Raffaele’s DNA on Meredith’s bra clasp, accepted the prosecution argument that that both were valid evidence. He did note, however, that he fully expected that the same argument would be heard again at the full trial. In his report, Micheli dedicates several pages to explaining the opposing arguments and how he made his decision to allow the evidence. It is a detailed technical argument, and it is not proposed to examine it any closer in this post.

    2) Judge Micheli explains that blood evidence proves that Meredith was wearing her bra when she was killed. Nor is it just the blood on her bra which demonstrates this. It’s also where the blood isn’t on her body. He says that Meredith was wearing her bra normally when she laid in the position in which she died, and she was still wearing it for quite some time after she was dead. Her bra strap marks and the position of her shoulder are imprinted in the pool of blood in that position. Meredith’s shoulder also shows the signs that she lay in that position for quite some time.

    He asks the question: Who came back, cut off Meredith’s bra and moved her body some time later? It wasn’t Rudy Guede. He went home, cleaned himself up and went out on the town with his friends. Judge Micheli reasons in his report that it could only have been done by someone who knew about Meredith’s death and had an interest in arranging the scene in Meredith’s room. Seemingly who else but Amanda Knox?

    She was apparently the only person in Perugia that night who could gain entry to the cottage. And the clasp which was cut with a knife when Meredith’s bra was removed was found on November 2nd when Meredith’s body was moved by the investigators. It was right under the pillow which was placed under Meredith when she was moved by someone from the position in which she died. On that clasp and its inch of fabric is the DNA of Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox. Micheli reasons in his report that Raffaele and Amanda seemed to have returned to the cottage some time after Meredith was dead, cut off her bra, moved her body, and staged the scene in Meredith’s room.

    3) Judge Micheli explains his reasoning on the method of Rudy’s entry into the cottage. He says that Rudy’s entry through the window is a very unlikely scenario and the evidence also indicates otherwise. He says the height and position of the window would expose any climber to the full glare of traffic headlights from cars on Via della Pergola. He asks, why wouldn’t a thief choose to break in through a ground floor window of the empty house? He says the broken glass and marks on the shutter both demonstrate the window was broken from the inside, some of the glass even falling on top of Filomena’s clothes which had been thrown around the room to simulate a robbery.

    But his major reasoning for believing Rudy’s entry was through the front door are the bloody bare footprints which show up with luminol and fit Knox’s and Sollecito’s feet. These suggest that they entered Filomena’s room and created the scene in there after Meredith was killed. Allessandra Formica witnessed Rudy run away shortly after Meredith was stabbed. Someone went back later, left those footprints and staged the scene.

    This, when considered in combination with the knowledge that person demonstrated of Rudy’s biological involvement with Meredith when they also staged the sex assault scene in Meredith’s own room indicates that that person was present when Meredith was assaulted and killed. He said it also demonstrated an attempt by someone who had an interest in altering the evidence in the house to leave the blame at Rudy’s door. Micheli reasoned, the only person who could have witnessed Rudy’s earlier sex assault on Meredith, could gain entry via the door and had an interest in altering the crime scene in the house appeared to be Amanda Knox. In his report, Micheli states that this logic leads him to believe that Amanda Knox was the one who let Rudy Guede into the cottage through the front door.

    4) Judge Micheli examines the evidence of Antonio Curatolo. He says that although Curatolo mixes up his dates in his statement, he does have a fix on the night he saw Amanda and Raffaele in Piazza Grimana sometime around 11:00 to 11:30pm. Curatolo is certain it was the night before the Piazza filled up with policemen asking if anyone had seen Meredith. In his evidence, he says they came into the square from the direction of Via Pinturicchio and kept looking towards the cottage at Via della Pergola from a position in the square where they could see the entrance gate.

    Judge Micheli reasons in his report that their arrival from Via Pinturicchio ties in with the evidence from Nara Capazzali that she heard someone run up the stairs in the direction of that street. He also reasons that they were likely watching the cottage to see if Meredith’s scream had resulted in the arrival of the police or other activity.

    5) Judge Micheli examines the evidence of Hekuran Kokomani and finds him far from discredited. His says the testimony is garbled, his dates and times makes no sense but.... that Hekuran Kokomani was in the vicinity of the cottage on both 31st Oct. and 1st Nov isn’t in doubt. Furthermore, Micheli says that when he gave his statement, the details which he gave of the breakdown of the car, the tow truck and the people involved weren’t known by anyone else. He must have witnessed the breakdown in Via della Pergola. The same breakdown was also seen by Allessandra Formica shortly after Rudy Guede collided with her boyfriend.

    This places Hekuran Kokomani outside the cottage right around the time of Meredith’s murder and he in turn places Raffaele Sollecito, Amanda Knox and Rudy Guede together outside the cottage at the same time. His evidence also places all three outside the cottage at some time the previous night.

    Judge Michelii found that all this evidence implicated Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito as accomplices of Rudy Guede in the murder of Meredith Kercher.


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  21. #1112
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    Quote Originally Posted by darnudes View Post
    Okay

    Found another link to the email that Amanda sent to 23 of her friends and family 2 days after the murder.

    Amanda Knox wrote:
    This is an email for everyone, because id like to get it all out and
    not have to repeat myself a hundred times like ive been having to do
    at the police station. some of you already know some things, some of
    you know nothing. what im about to say i cant say to journalists or
    newspapers, and i require that of anone receiving this information as
    well. this is m account of how i found my roommate murdered the
    morning of friday, november 2nd.
    The last time i saw meredith, 22, english, beautiful, funny, was when
    i came home from spending the night at a friends house. It was the day
    after halloween, thursday. I got home and she was still asleep, bu
    after i had taken a shower and was fumbling around the kitchen she
    emerged from her room with the blood of her costume (vampire) still
    dripping down her chin. We talked for a while in the kitchen, how the
    night went, what our plans were for the day. Nothing out of the
    ordinary. then she went to take a shower and i began to start eating a
    little while i waited for my friend (Raffaele-at whose house i stayed
    over) to arrive at my house. He came right after i started eating and
    he made himself some pasta. as we were eating together meredith came
    out of the shower and grabbed some laundry or put some laundry in, one
    or the other and returned into her room after saying hi to raffael.
    after lunch i began to play guitar with raffael and meredith came out
    of her room and went to the door. she said bye and left for the day.
    it was the last time i saw her alive.
    after a little while of playing guitar me and raffael went to his
    house to watch movies and after to eat dinner and generally spend the
    evening and night indoors. we didnt go out. the next morning i woke up
    around 1030 and after grabbing my few things i left raffael's
    appartment and walked the five minute walk back to my house to once
    again take a shower and grab a chane of clothes. i also needed to grab
    a mop because after dinner raffael had spilled a lot of water on the
    floor of his kitchen by accident and didnt have a mop to clean it up.
    so i arrived home and the first abnormal thing i noticed was the door
    was wide open. here's the thingabout the door to our house: its
    broken, in such a way that you have to use the keys to keep it closed.
    if we dont have the door locked, it is really easy for the wond to
    blow the door open, and so, my roommates and i always have the door
    locked unless we are running really quickley to bring the garbage out
    or to get something from the neighbors who live below us. (another
    important piece of imformation: for those who dont know, i inhabit a
    house of two stories, of which my three roommates and i share the
    second story appartment. there are four italian guys of our age
    between 22 and 26 who live below us. we are all wuite good friends and
    we talk often. giacomo is especially welcome because he plays guitar
    with me and laura, one of my roommates, and is, or was dating
    meredith. the other three are marco, stefano, and ricardo.) anyway, so
    the door was wide open. strange, yes, but not so strange that i really
    thought anything about it. i assumed someone in the house was doing
    exactly what i just said, taking out the trash or talking really
    uickley to the neighbors downstairs. so i closed the door behind me
    but i didnt lock it, assuming that the person who left the door open
    would like to come back in. when i entered i called out if anyone was
    there, but no one responded and i assumed that if anyone was there,
    they were still asleep. lauras door was open which meant she wasnt
    home, and filomenas door was also closed. my door was open like always
    and meredith door was closed, which to me weant she was sleeping. i
    undressed in my room and took a quick shower in one of the two
    bathrooms in my house, the one that is right next to meredith and my
    bedrooms (situated right next to one another). it was after i stepped
    out of the shower and onto the mat that i noticed the blood in the
    bathroom. it was on the mat i was using to dry my feet and there were
    drops of blood in the sink. at first i thought the blood might have
    come from my ears which i had pierced extrensively not too long ago,
    but then immediately i know it wasnt mine becaus the stains on the mat
    were too big for just droplets form my ear, and when i touched the
    blood in the sink it was caked on already. there was also blood
    smeered on the faucet. again, however, i thought it was strange,
    because my roommates and i are very clean and we wouldnt leave blood
    int he bathroom, but i assumed that perhaps meredith was having
    menstral issues and hadnt cleaned up yet. ew, but nothing to worry
    about. i left the bathroom and got dressed in my room. after i got
    dressed i went to the other bathroom in my house, the one that
    filomena dn laura use, and used their hairdryer to obviously dry my
    hair and it was after i was putting back the dryer that i noticed the
    **** that was left in the toilet, something that definately no one in
    out house would do. i started feeling a little uncomfortable and so i
    grabbed the mop from out closet and lef the house, closing and locking
    the door that no one had come back through while i was in the shower,
    and i returned to raffael's place. after we had used the mop to clean
    up the kitchen i told raffael about what i had seen in the house over
    breakfast. the strange blood in the bathroom, the door wide open, the
    **** left in the toilet. he suggested i call one of my roommates, so i
    called filomena. filomena had been at a party the night before with
    her boyfriend marco (not the same marco who lives downstairs but we'll
    call him marco-f as in filomena and the other can be marco-n as in
    neighbor). she also told me that laura wasnt at home and hadnt been
    because she was on business in rome. which meant the only one who had
    spent the night at our house last night was meredith, and she was as
    of yet unaccounted for. filomena seemed really worried, so i told her
    id call meredith and then call her back. i called both of merediths
    phones the english one first and last and the italian one between. the
    first time i called the english phone is rang and then sounded as of
    there was disturbance, but no one answered. i then calle the italian
    phone and it just kept ringing, no answer. i called her english phone
    again and this time an english voice told me her phone was out of
    service. raffael and i gathered our things and went back to my house.
    i unlocked the door and im going to tell this really slowly to get
    everything right so just have patience with me. the living
    room/kitchen was fine. looked perfectly normal. i was checking for
    signs of our things missing, should there have been a burglar in our
    house the night before. filomenas room was closed, but when i opned
    the door her room and a mess and her window was open and completely
    broken, but her computer was still sitting on her desk like it always
    was and this confused me. convinced that we had been robbed i went to
    lauras room and looked quickley in, but it was spottless, like it
    hadnt even been touced. this too, i thought was odd. i then went into
    the part of the house that meredith and i share and checked my room
    for things missing, which there werent. then i knocked on merediths
    room.
    at first i thought she was alseep so i knocked gently, but when she
    didnt respond i knocked louder and louder until i was really banging
    on her door and shouting her name. no response. panicing, i ran out
    onto our terrace to see if maybe i could see over the ledge into her
    room from the window, but i couldnt see in. bad angle. i then went
    into the bathroom where i had dried my hair and looked really quickley
    into the toilet. in my panic i thought i hadnt seen anything there,
    which to me meant whoever was in my house had been there when i had
    been there. as it turns out the police told me later that the toilet
    was full and that the **** had just fallen to the bottom of the
    toilet, so i didnt see it. i ran outside and down to our neighbors
    door. the lights were out but i banged ont he door anyway. i wanted to
    ask them if they had heard anything the night before, but no one was
    home. i ran back into the house. in the living room raffael told me he
    wanted to see if he could break down merediths door. he tried, and
    cracked the door, but we couldnt open it. it was then that we decided
    to call the cops. there are two types of cops in italy, carbanieri
    (local, dealing with traffic and domestic calls) and the police
    investigaters. he first called his sister for advice and then called
    the carbanieri. i then called filomna who said she would be on her way
    home immediately. while we were waiting, two ununiformed police
    investigaters came to our house. i showed them what i could and told
    them what i knew. gave them ohone numbers and explained a bit in
    broken italian, and then filomena arrived with her boyfriend marco-f
    and two other friends of hers. all together we checked the houe out,
    talked to the polie,a nd in a big they all opened merediths door.
    i was in the kitchen stadning aside, having really done my part for
    the situation. but when they opened merediths door and i heard
    filomena scream "a foot! a foot!" in italian i immedaitely tried to
    get to merediths room but raffael grabbed me and took me out of the
    house. the police told everyone to get out and not long afterward the
    carabinieri arrived and then soon afterward, more police
    investigators. they took all of our informaton and asked us the same
    questions over and over. at the time i had only what i was wearing and
    my badg, which thankfully had my passport in it and my wallet. no
    jacket though, and i was freezing. after sticking around at the housr
    for a bit, the police told us to go to the station to give testimony,
    which i did. i was in a room for six hours straight after that without
    seeing anyone else, answering questions in italian for the first hour
    and then they brought in an interpreter and he helped my out with the
    details that i didnt know the words for. they asked me of course about
    the the morning, the last time i saw her, and because i was the
    closest to her, questions about her habits and her relationships.
    afterward, when they were taking my fingerprints, i met two of
    merediths english friends, two girls she goes out with, including the
    lat one who saw her alive that night she was murdered. they also had
    their prints taken. after that, this was around 9 at night by this
    time, i was taken into the waiting room where there was various other
    people who i all knew from varous places who all knew meredith. her
    friends from england, my roommates, even the owner of the pub she most
    frequented. after a while my neighbors were taken in too, having just
    arived home from a weeklong vacation in their home town, which
    eplained why they werent home when i banged on their door. later than
    that another guy showed up and was taken in for questioning, a guy i
    dont like but who both meredith and i knew from different occasions, a
    morracan guy that i only know by his nickname amongst the girls
    "shaky". then i sat around in this waiting room wthout having the
    chance to leave or eat anything besides vending maschine food (whcih
    gave me a hell of a stomache ache) until 530 in the morning. during
    this time i received calls from a lot of different people, family
    mostly of course, and i also talked with the rest. especially to find
    out what exactly was in merediths room whent hey opened it. apparently
    her body was laying under a sheet, and with her foot sticking out and
    there was a lot of blood. whoever had did this had slit her throat.
    they told me to be back in at 11am. i went home to raffael's place and
    ate something substantial, and passed out.
    in the morning raffael drove me bck to the police station but had to
    leave me when they said they wantrd to take me back to the house for
    quesioning. before i go on, id like to ssay that i was strictly told
    not to speak about this, but im speaking with you people who are not
    involved and who cant do anything bad except talk to journalists,
    which i hope you wont do. i have to get this off my chest because its
    pressing down on me and it helps to know that someone besides me knows
    something, and that im not the one who knows the most out of everyone.
    at the house they asked me very personal questions about meredith's
    life and also about the personalities of our neighbors. how well did i
    know them? pretty well, we are friends. was meredith sexually active?
    yeah, she borrowed a few of my condoms. does she like anal? wtf? i
    dont know. does she use vaseline? for her lips? what kind of person is
    stefano? nice guy, has a really pretty girlfriend. hmmm...very
    interesting....weìd like to how you something, and tell us if this is
    out of normal.
    tehy took me into the nieghbors house. the had breaken the door open
    to get in, but they told me to ingonore that. the rooms were all open.
    giacomo and marco-n's room was spotless which made since becaus the
    guys had thoroughly cleaned the whole house before they left on
    vacation. stefano's room however, well, his bed was strpped of linens,
    which was odd, and the comfoter he used was shoved up at the top of
    his bed, with blood on it. i obviously told then that the blood was
    definatley out of normal and also that he usually has his bed made.
    they took note of it and ussred me out. when i left the house to go
    back to the police station they told me to put my jacket over my head
    and duck down below the window so the reporters wouldnt try to talk to
    me. at the station i just had to repeat the answers that i had givne
    at the house do they could type them up and after a good 5 and a half
    hour day with the police again raffael picked me up and took me out
    for some well-deserved pizza. i was starving. i then bought some
    underwear because as it turns out i wont be able to leave italy for a
    while as well as enter my house. i only had the clothes i was wearing
    the day it bagan, so i bought some underwear and borrwed a pair of
    pants from raffael.
    Spoke with my remaining roommates that night (last night) and it was a
    hurricane of emotions and stress but we needed it anyway. What we have
    been discussing is bascially what to do next. We are trying to keep
    our heads on straight. First things first though, my roommates both
    work for lawyers, and they are going to try to send a request through
    on monday to retrieve important documents of ours that are still in
    the house. Secondly, we are going to talk to the agency that we used
    to find our house and obviously request to move out. It kind of sucks
    that we have to pay the next months rent, but the owner has protection
    within the contract. After that, I guess I'll go back to class on
    monday, although im not sure what im going to do about people asking
    me questions, because i really dont want to talk again about what
    happened. Ive been talking an awful lot lately and im pretty tired of
    it. After that, Its like im trying to remember what i was doing before
    all this happened. I still need to figure out who i need to talk to
    and what i need to do to continue studying in perugia, because its
    what i want to do.
    Anyway, thats the update, feeling okay, hope you all are well,
    amanda

    http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=39

    Thank you so much for posting this! I followed this case at the beginning, but am just coming back to it now. I'd never seen that. It reminded me of a letter in another case--the leaked one Deepak Kalpoe wrote to his American friend. At the time, I took what he wrote at face value, but it turned out, he was lying through omission. While he wasn't involved in Natalee's death (imo), he was covering up for a friend. Maybe the same here. One charge I would surely get her on would be obstruction of justice.
    Last edited by T-Rex; 12-08-2009 at 06:04 PM.


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  23. #1113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
    BBM

    It appears they asked for the forensic review after the jury had started deliberations. I'm not surprised it was rejected.
    I think that means it was denied after they deliberated for two hours about whether or not to allow it. That's how I understand it, anyway. Why would the defense make this request after the jury began deliberating over guilt or innocence? It doesn't make sense.


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  25. #1114
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    Very glad to be able to read the letter she sent out to all those people. One more piece of info and from her viewpoint and state-of-mind, which is always helpful. Thank you!


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  27. #1115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tizzle View Post
    I think that means it was denied after they deliberated for two hours about whether or not to allow it. That's how I understand it, anyway. Why would the defense make this request after the jury began deliberating over guilt or innocence? It doesn't make sense.
    Tizzle is correct. The request was made before closing arguments and before any deliberations. The judges deliberated on the request to have an independent evaluation of the evidence. They refused. I think it should have been granted. Why? It never hurts to take a 2nd and 3rd look at evidence to make sure you understand exactly what it is and what it is not telling you. IMHO of course.


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  29. #1116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tizzle View Post
    I think that means it was denied after they deliberated for two hours about whether or not to allow it. That's how I understand it, anyway. Why would the defense make this request after the jury began deliberating over guilt or innocence? It doesn't make sense.
    I know it does sound strange. But this is what it says;

    An Italian jury rejected Amanda Knox’s multiple requests for an independent review of contested evidence Friday, bringing the end in sight to the Seattle student’s contentious murder trial....

    _______________________________

    The eight-member jury, which includes two professional judges, flatly rejected all defense requests at 9:30 p.m. after deliberating just under two hours.


    I just noticed it was from an October article. My bad. But it's still in the middle of the trial. That might be allowed in Italy but I don't think it's allowed in American courts. If it is it's probably very rare.


  30. #1117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isabella View Post
    We just want justice for Merediths brutal murder. If an innocent person was convicted we wouldnt be getting justice for her family so NO we arent satisfied with just anyone getting convicted.
    I said no such thing. Not remotely.

    What I said was that journalists--British or American--are human beings and may be subject to human motivations, bias and errors. Just as jurors, judges, police and prosecutors--American or Italian--are human beings and there's no reason to assume Italians have some sort of alien motive to railroad an American young woman.

    I realize you're reading at a lot of sites and have encountered plenty of American xenophobia. But it's a mistake to assume that anyone of us who questions any aspect of the prosecution does so on the basis of racist assumptions about Italian inadequacy. On the contrary, some of my reservations stem from a belief that some Italian LE are probably no different than some American, Canadia or British LE.

    From all the sites i have read here tho and all the papers comments section i can say the vast majority of this country think the correct verdict was made.
    I believe you. Ditto what I said above.


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  32. #1118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isabella View Post
    She said she saw him killing her. I fail to see how anyone can blame the cops for what came out of Amandas mouth. She changed her story several times including one time when she was in the court room. That time she tried to frame her bf.

    Its funny because its like some seem to think she was like a puppet being told what to say about the cops whereas i see her a lieing manipulative murdering witch who will frame anyone if it means she herself gets out of it.
    Obviously my explanations of why people make false statements under the pressure of extended interrogation aren't helping. The following are explanations from those more expert than I:


    http://www.psychologytoday.com/artic...lse-confession


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_confession


    http://www.innocenceproject.org/fix/...onfessions.php


    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...80112c4f114f8a
    Last edited by KateB; 05-17-2015 at 09:04 PM. Reason: repair url tag.


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  34. #1119
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    This is why I wanted to specifically focus my attentions (first) on the forensic evidence. Because eyewitnesses can be wrong, and defendants can change their stories, and behavior is subjective as to it's meaning, but blood, hair, fibers, fingerprints, body fluids, etc. are what they are. They can either be matched to someone or they cannot. If (big if) their chain-of-possession is properly documented and maintained, and if the samples were collected and preserved and tested correctly, then forensic evidence is among the strongest (if not THE strongest) evidence in most cases, including this case. Of course there needs to be assurance that all protocols were stringently followed at all times or else an item of evidence's value can be worthless.


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  36. #1120
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    Quote Originally Posted by ****** View Post
    ...And people's behavior is evidence, well established. Generally defense attorneys don't like this and try to deflect attention from it, but it's there and it comes in to court every day.
    True. But the problem with what I'm calling "affect evidence" is that the triers of fact (jurors) usually end up comparing the defendant's behavior to how prosecutor claims and the juror himself imagines s/he would behave under the same circumstances.

    Surely we can all see the problem with this sort of reasoning. Few jurors (and few of us) know enough murderers or accused-but-innocent defendants or roommates of murdered young women to make the comparison with any objectivity or certainty.

    Imagine science if scientists tested theory not with hard data, but by imagining how they would behave if they were a black hole!

    (There are cases, of course, where psychologists are employed to say with some expertise how most people would respect to a certain situation. But even there, I suspect the experts end up speculating and projecting quite a bit.)


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  38. #1121
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    Quote Originally Posted by MomofBoys View Post
    I thought there was a bloody footprint belonging to AK as well.



    Believe me, it works both ways. I can't believe the myopic people on other blogs/articles who are like, and I'm not exaggerating: "She should be freed. She just doesn't look like someone who would do this." "She's so sweet looking." My favorite? "I don't follow the case, but my BFF told me there's no evidence so I think Hilary should get involved."

    There is evidence. People can poke holes in it all day long, but it takes an especially kind person to dismiss every piece and every action as some kind of conspiracy against her. People are assuming the cops are both brilliant masterminds AND bumbling idiots. I'm not sure they can have it both ways.
    Good post and I agree with most of it.

    But regarding the passage I bolded, I want to point out that you are not the first to assume those who question the conviction are saying the police must have consciously masterminded every piece of evidence and knowingly convicted an innocent person.

    IMO, the truth in most cases of wrongful conviction is not so black and white. Rather, police are human beings: they hate to admit they are wrong and in the heat of advocacy will sometimes cherry-pick the evidence that suits their preconceived opinion while ignoring everything else.

    Just like we WSers from time to time.

    If Italian LE made errors, that doesn't mean they are too stupid to cling to those errors and use the false evidence produced to prove their case. On the contrary, it's rather human to do so.


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  40. #1122
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    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...07/lkl.01.html

    KING: Edda, in the immediate aftermath of the murder, your family in Germany suggested that Amanda come and stay with them. She didn't. Do you think that would've changed things?

    MELLAS: Oh, you know, I kick myself every day that I didn't make her leave the country. And so does my cousin in Germany. Because had she left and -- none of this would've happened. She wouldn't be where she's at. But, you know, we can't go back and fix that. We just need to go forward.

    KING: You don't think they would have extradited?

    MELLAS: No, there was no -- there's no evidence against her. You know, none of that interrogation that they bullied her into that the supreme court found illegal, none of that would've happened. There's no physical evidence of her at the crime scene. They would have had no reason to, you know, extradite her or even attempt to arrest her. And they even admit to the fact that they really have no physical evidence, that it's just sort of some bizarre circumstantial stuff that they have.



    You can choose to be bitter or better when handling your problems.


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  42. #1123
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    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...07/lkl.01.html

    KING: We're back with Edda Mellas and Curt Knox. You mentioned no evidence. Didn't the prosecution assert that Amanda's DNA was on the handle of the kitchen knife used to kill Meredith? And Meredith's DNA was on the blade? Isn't that true, Edda?

    MELLAS: You know, well, no, they found a knife in Raffaele's house. It's kind of yes and no. And there was Amanda's DNA on the handle, and that's because she -- she actually, you know, cooked meals there.

    The speck of DNA that was about a human cell that they found on the blade is highly controversial. It's what they call low copy number DNA. And in, you know, the FBI won't even use it in the United States because it is so unreliable, that you can't -- you can't prove anything with it. And that's all they think they have.

    KING: Curt, why did she -- why was she found not guilty? Found guilty, rather. Why did she lose this case?

    KNOX: Well, frankly, what I believe happened in this particular courtroom was a huge character assassination that literally took place for two years. And the extreme exposure that this case got, and the misreporting, leaks of false information, and all of that just snowballed. And during the closing arguments, the defense teams for both Amanda and Raffaele did an extraordinary job of breaking down all of the physical evidence and literally having the prosecution change to a fourth motive of, you know, we don't need a motive.

    I believe this court didn't have the courage to say not guilty and just push it off to the appeals level, which is completely unacceptable to me.



    KING: Edda, what do you know about that night? What do you know about the stories of drugs and sex games and the like? What do you really know?

    MELLAS: Well, you know, we know -- we don't know what happened at Amanda's house, because she wasn't there. You know, what we do know for sure and what has been proven by evidence, for instance, is that Amanda and Raffaele were seen at Raffaele's house. It shows computer activity at his house. They were there. They cooked dinner. They watched a movie. They hung out. All of that is proven through computer records, all the way up until at least, I think, 9:15.

    Now, they believe that Meredith was killed about 9:30. And somehow the prosecution claims that in 15 minutes, Amanda and Raffaele got totally wasted, ran off, found a guy that they didn't know, committed this murder, in about 15 minutes. It's ludicrous. Amanda was at Raffaele's house. They stayed there all evening. That's what we know for sure.

    You can choose to be bitter or better when handling your problems.


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  44. #1124
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    I was unaware that police have stated Guede did implicate Amanda.

    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...07/lkl.01.html
    KING: We have a third person, the Ivory Coast immigrant named Rudy Guede, who was convicted of Meredith's murder earlier in the year in a separate trial. Although police say he implicated Amanda, he declined to testify. After he declined to testify, the prosecution tried to have transcripts of his interrogation introduced. The motion was denied. What do you make of his involvement in all of this?

    MELLAS: You know, it's interesting. Because we do know what was admitted of his. We know that his DNA is all over the room, in the victim's blood, on the victim's body. His footprints are in her blood all over the room. His DNA is in her purse. After the crime, he all of a sudden had money that he didn't have earlier in the day. He went out partying, and then he fled the country. And we know also -- and what was admitted in Amanda's trial -- the only thing that really was admitted -- was that when he was on the run and the police were secretly wiretapping him and he was talking to a friend of his, the friend said, you know, they think Amanda was there. And he goes, oh, I know who Amanda is and she was absolutely not there.

    You can choose to be bitter or better when handling your problems.


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  46. #1125
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    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...07/lkl.01.html

    KING: One curious aspect about your daughter. She falsely implicated a man named Patrick Lumumba. He was cleared. Why would she do that? In fact, she was sentenced to pay 40,000 euros to Patrick Lumumba for defamation. Do you know, Curt, why -- where he came in?

    KNOX: Well, there -- during the time frame in which Meredith lost her life and when Amanda was actually arrested, it was about a 90-hour time frame. During that 90 hours, Amanda was actually questioned and interrogated for over 41 hours, and it culminated in a 14-hour overnight, very aggressive interrogation.

    She told us it's -- she has never been more scared in her entire life. She was asked to visualize a number of things. They prompted her towards Patrick Lumumba, and literally she described even in her testimony six to eight people circling her, shouting at her, questioning at her, hitting her in the back of the head.

    And at that stage of the game, you're virtually willing to sign anything in order to get out of that situation. And that's a circumstance that if you take a look at it, across the world, you're going to find that a number of people do a number of things. And I believe that's exactly what happened in this case.

    And one thing to point out here is that both of the statements that she made during that interrogation were actually thrown out by the Italian supreme court. So in this particular circumstance, yes, he was part of the trial, and yes, he was awarded something. But I believe in the appeal process, we're going to be able to show that she was essentially coerced into it, and therefore the civil settlement will go away.

    You can choose to be bitter or better when handling your problems.


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    Do not copy any of my post. All post are to remain here.



    Christopher McCandless (aka Alexander Supertramp)
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    http://www.bringkyronhome.org/
    If you have information about Kyron Horman, please call the Tip Line at 503-261-2847 or dial 911


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