Hi...yes...but the window in Meredith's room was also broken ...and they cant find all the glass...
they can find the glass from Filomena's
to me, two broken windows, that are impossible to enter from outside without some equiptment, are sort of overdoing it
I feel they did break the window in Meredith's room and use the shard to subdue her....and then afterwards threw Filomena's clothes around and then thought to break her window
there are pictures on msnbc that show the glass on the window sill outside the room
the italian police gathered up all the glass in Meredith's room and from the sill and from the yard..
but it does not match up
the door was left open after all of this
why would an intruder break two windows?? surely if he broke one and could not get in, Meredith would have heard it and been able to run out or call for help?
what does "staging" a break in mean....why would someone do that? The obvious answer is to make it look as if someone from OUTSIDE the home came in....to deflect suspicion from those living there
have you seen the pictures of the house:? I don't think an "athletic person" could easily get up there...the roof is very sloped and has large eaves over the side..so you would have to be a gymnaist
both windows are on the 2nd floor
Last edited by LogicalMinds; 12-08-2009 at 01:15 PM.
ETA: I believe AK's embrace didn't look like it was a comforting one. Yours sounds different.
It is long but I agree it's very interesting. I'm still going through it.
Last edited by Steely Dan; 12-08-2009 at 01:23 PM.
The reason for several different confessions is because Amanda kept changing her story. One version she has Raf putting the knife in her hand while she slept! Amanda's DNA was found on the handle of the knife, with Meredith's on the tip, why do you keep missing that fact? I've posted it more than once on this thread.
Some of you apparently want this case all wrapped up with a pretty little bow like they do in the movies.
Hate to break it to you but this was real life. Real life is messy. Meredith was butchered, she was cut so she bled out like a pig.
So you want answers to all of your questions. Well, Amanda lived with Meredith. Amanda was charged with her murder. Amanda's life hung in the balance. Amanda has given no answers.
I see a lot of anger here. Anger that Amanda didn't beat the rap. I don't understand that.
One thing to remember is that three people were involved. Which means the odds are very high the truth about what happened that night will be told.
Again, I'm NOT saying that AK is innocent! I'm just trying to examine the evidence. (I feel I need to repeat this in every single post I make since people keep thinking I'm defending AK and saying she didn't do the crime).
Did you look over my post in the previous page?
The Seeker / Sports Freak /
Folks on this board, even the Yanks, are starting to Get It. It is a very complex situation without any real smoking gun; just a lot of "things" that add up to the incontravertable conclusion that they were "involved".
The "Spin" in most of the US media; most notably the 48 hours of 12/5, is clearly "pro Amanda". Evidently, the Knox/Mellas family got their money's worth when they shelled out big bucks for a media consultant and a full court press PR campaign. The trouble was/is that the trial was in Italy and it had no impact (except perhaps a negative one) on the jurors. I suppose the parents sleep a little better believing that their friends and neighbors don't think their daughter is a killer. There is talk about appealing to Hillary Clinton to get involved, but they must realize that this is going to be researched a little better by the State Depot that the 48 Hour staff.
Actually, the strongest argument that Amanda (and Raffaele and Rudy) have is the very improbability of the Crime. Does it make any sense that these three young people would commit such a crime? No it doesn't and I can't come up with any senerio that does. The prosecution offered up its own WAG (wild ass guess) and I read a few others but I am stumped. It was probably some sort of "game" gone bad. We do know that seemingly "normal" people commit inexplicable crimes (think: Jeffery McDonald, Scott Petterson, Dollie Routier etc.)
In the end, I find myself most disturbed by the pointless death of a seeming perfectly decent young woman. I grieve for her and her family. I also feel very bad for Amanda and Raffaeles' family. Whether they see themselves as victims of legal abuse or of the trajedy of having their children commit serious crime, they have, and will continue to suffer.
You may believe that her post trauma embrace "sounds" different than mine, but in fact it wasn't, really. Quite similar, actually. I was only a witness to the shooting and extremely terrified. I didn't cry or act out. I remained as calm as possible but I'm sure the distress was easily read on my face. I read that on AK's face during her now famous embrace. JMO
Also, I remember being highly anxious in the police station and getting up and walking around the room more than once because sitting still in that chair was wearing on my nerves. I didn't do cartwheels, no, because I'm not a gymnast, but I did stretch and walk around to keep my mind busy in any way. Again, I was only there 2 hours. We couldn't go home afterwards, of course. We stayed at his parents house and held each other TIGHT all night long.
Another point, my father died when I was young and I was very close to him. It was the most horrendous loss of my life. I didn't cry. I went numb. Some people deal with grief this way. I did.
That is a good point Kemo...it was/is "improbable"
I personally think about cases where certain elements of people "allowed" them to commit crimes together that they would not do seperately
>>> Rafaelle , virgin or almost virgin till he met wild Amanda...with his obsession about gory comic books showing beautiful "manga" women murdered
>>> Amanda...spreading her "wings" but not in a good way..self centered, self absorbed
center of attention....
>>> Guede ...pot head drifter/druggie who was probably delighted to be "admitted" to an apartment and have a sexual romp (forced) thanks to his "friends"
MY PERSONAL thought is that Amanda and Rafaelle were drunk/high and let Guede in and Meredith had a confrontation with them....she may have had enough of Amanda bringing home people etc..
and somehow things escalated...at some point they realized that they were accomplices to rape and they killed her
I do think that Rafaelle may have been the one to stage the windows...as his sister is LE ..and he kept referring to them when the Postal police were there
that is the only thing I can figure....???
As the person with the key and legal right to be in the apt, Amanda seems to have been the catalyst for this
murder in commission of another felony (rape) means that all are charged with murder, just as it would be here in the usa (but not apparently in England, Wales or Northern Ireland, even tho this principle was started there in British laws)
Tizzle are we supposed to think that Meredith sat in the apt at 9 pm or so while the perp broke not one but TWO windows??
and clambered up the grill...and then hoisted himself in? she could have called 112..ran out...or just pushed him off the window ledge
did she hear one window break and then wait to hear the next one break??
two broken windows>>> overdone attempt to make it seem like a break in IMHO
From what I understand, the alleged DNA of Meredith on the knife was tested into non-existance and has never officially been verified as 100% hers. Even if it was MK's DNA, isn't it possible that it was transferred by AK as a result of them being roommates, i.e. skin cells? I'm not saying this is what happened, I'm asking if it's possible?
Not to mention, the knife has never even been identified as the murder weapon, for sure. I've heard it COULD be consistent with the murder weapon but have never seen anywhere where it's said that it is DEFINITELY the knife used. I've never seen evidence where it definitely matches the weapon used but have seen evidence where it is ruled out as the weapon used.
There are just SO MANY inconsistencies, I really don't see how some are so convinced of A&R'S guilt. It's so difficult to distinguish the gossip from the real information. I just can't believe this doesn't bother more people than it does.
Here's why I would convict AK if I were a juror. (In no particular order)
The ludicrous mop story
The obvious cleanup and staged robbery.
She doesn't have a firm alibi for that night.
She's told a lot of stories that have nothing to do with the truth. If she was coerced I think it would have been one story only.
She implicated an innocent man.
A person testified that she had pulled a knife on her the day before the murder. I wasn't there and so I have no first hand knowledge of his credibility but it's enough to make me scratch my chin.
The shopkeeper that identified her in court as the girl in his shop at 7:45am after the murder. When she claims she was at her BF's house. (I'll ignore the receipt since it appears it was never entered into evidence.)
The fact that she was given a translator after one hour of her questioning. By her own words.
The email she sent to friends.
They found a footprint going toward Meredith's room and away from Meredith's room matching her size.
She not only lied about Lumuba verbally but she also signed a statement attesting to her verbal story.
Two prosecutors were working the corrupt Mignini and a woman named Manuela Comodi who appears to be clean.
The bra clasp that was sealed in her room for two weeks has RS's DNA on it. DNA doesn't get on a piece of evidence very easily. I've seen cases in which DNA has been tested 20 years or so after the initial finding.
Sollecito's lies to police.
The Knox's hired a PR firm.
That's some. I think I need a nap.
To be continued.
I reserve the right to add or subtract things from this list in future posts, this all seems credible to me now.
My guess is that this wasn't just a murder but a case of torture and then murder. I find it hard to believe the three of them each had a one third share in what happened. Which means one of them will some day think they stand on a higher moral ground than the other two and want to make sure people know that.
Nobody can say anything now because of the appeal process.
I am sorry for what you had to go through, it must have been devastating. I know it would be for me.
for the record I would like to say I wish I could see court transcripts. I do believe we are all getting different stories (I am in the UK, although american, so take that for what it's worth as well)....
.....because while I do think amanda and rafaele were involved, I am also not convinced by the evidence that I am aware of.
which is funny cause I actually thought they would walk, although they were truly guilty. I still feel unsure there was enough evidence to convict.
I want to thank those of you who are willing to discuss the evidence in this case. Since I've come to the case late in the game, as it were, I'm doing a lot of catch-up.
I read the following in Clint Van Zant's blog about the case:
The mixed blood evidence.
Knox’s blood and the blood of the victim were allegedly found comingled in multiple places around the crime scene, to include the bathroom, in one of the bedrooms and in the hallway.
Okay now THAT is compelling if true. It would be difficult to come up with an innocent scenario to explain each and every combined blood stain of MK mixed with AK.
That's the kind of evidence I look for (in a bloody crime scene) to indicate and prove a specific person was at the scene of the crime and interacted in some way with the victim, their blood and/or the scene. The bathroom alone is hinky but not as compelling (IMHO) as a mixture of blood found in one of the roommate's rooms. We know AK used that bathroom regularly.
Last edited by SleuthyGal; 12-08-2009 at 05:01 PM.
Someone upstream asked me to name my source that the defense was denied independent review of the DNA evidence.
I found it. It is from Andrea Vogt's Oct 9, 2009 report:
An Italian jury rejected Amanda Knox’s multiple requests for an independent review of contested evidence Friday, bringing the end in sight to the Seattle student’s contentious murder trial....
Lawyers for Knox and Sollecito, asked the court to approve an independent review of several contested pieces of forensic evidence, most notably the kitchen knife with Knox’s DNA on the handle and what prosecutor’s argue is the Kercher’s on the blade, and a bra clasp with Sollecito’s DNA.
Knox’s lawyers also asked for a review of the luminol-enhanced footprints, the mark on the pillowcase that the prosecution argued was a woman’s shoeprint, but which the defense argues is simply a bloody crease, and several other traces of DNA found in the flat Knox and Kercher shared....
The Kercher family’s attorney, Francesco Maresca of Florence, argued, however, that the court already had plenty of material to review. “We all know that in all trials of this nature there are different analyses of forensic evidence made by the various expert witnesses,” he said. “The court must now consider the seriousness and integrity of the experts’ testimony.”
Prosecutor Manuela Comodi went a step farther, saying while she did not believe a review was necessary, she would she would “almost be pleased” to see the results with regard to the prosecution’s footprint expert analysis.
The eight-member jury, which includes two professional judges, flatly rejected all defense requests at 9:30 p.m. after deliberating just under two hours.
All of this comes from; http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/C356/
[Note: The following paragraph numbers form no part of Micheli’s report. They are used in the context of this summary to identify the points of evidence contained in his report which will be examined and summarised in greater detail in follow-up posts]
1) Judge Micheli, after hearing both prosecution and defense arguments about Meredith’s and Amanda’s DNA on the knife and Raffaele’s DNA on Meredith’s bra clasp, accepted the prosecution argument that that both were valid evidence. He did note, however, that he fully expected that the same argument would be heard again at the full trial. In his report, Micheli dedicates several pages to explaining the opposing arguments and how he made his decision to allow the evidence. It is a detailed technical argument, and it is not proposed to examine it any closer in this post.
2) Judge Micheli explains that blood evidence proves that Meredith was wearing her bra when she was killed. Nor is it just the blood on her bra which demonstrates this. It’s also where the blood isn’t on her body. He says that Meredith was wearing her bra normally when she laid in the position in which she died, and she was still wearing it for quite some time after she was dead. Her bra strap marks and the position of her shoulder are imprinted in the pool of blood in that position. Meredith’s shoulder also shows the signs that she lay in that position for quite some time.
He asks the question: Who came back, cut off Meredith’s bra and moved her body some time later? It wasn’t Rudy Guede. He went home, cleaned himself up and went out on the town with his friends. Judge Micheli reasons in his report that it could only have been done by someone who knew about Meredith’s death and had an interest in arranging the scene in Meredith’s room. Seemingly who else but Amanda Knox?
She was apparently the only person in Perugia that night who could gain entry to the cottage. And the clasp which was cut with a knife when Meredith’s bra was removed was found on November 2nd when Meredith’s body was moved by the investigators. It was right under the pillow which was placed under Meredith when she was moved by someone from the position in which she died. On that clasp and its inch of fabric is the DNA of Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox. Micheli reasons in his report that Raffaele and Amanda seemed to have returned to the cottage some time after Meredith was dead, cut off her bra, moved her body, and staged the scene in Meredith’s room.
3) Judge Micheli explains his reasoning on the method of Rudy’s entry into the cottage. He says that Rudy’s entry through the window is a very unlikely scenario and the evidence also indicates otherwise. He says the height and position of the window would expose any climber to the full glare of traffic headlights from cars on Via della Pergola. He asks, why wouldn’t a thief choose to break in through a ground floor window of the empty house? He says the broken glass and marks on the shutter both demonstrate the window was broken from the inside, some of the glass even falling on top of Filomena’s clothes which had been thrown around the room to simulate a robbery.
But his major reasoning for believing Rudy’s entry was through the front door are the bloody bare footprints which show up with luminol and fit Knox’s and Sollecito’s feet. These suggest that they entered Filomena’s room and created the scene in there after Meredith was killed. Allessandra Formica witnessed Rudy run away shortly after Meredith was stabbed. Someone went back later, left those footprints and staged the scene.
This, when considered in combination with the knowledge that person demonstrated of Rudy’s biological involvement with Meredith when they also staged the sex assault scene in Meredith’s own room indicates that that person was present when Meredith was assaulted and killed. He said it also demonstrated an attempt by someone who had an interest in altering the evidence in the house to leave the blame at Rudy’s door. Micheli reasoned, the only person who could have witnessed Rudy’s earlier sex assault on Meredith, could gain entry via the door and had an interest in altering the crime scene in the house appeared to be Amanda Knox. In his report, Micheli states that this logic leads him to believe that Amanda Knox was the one who let Rudy Guede into the cottage through the front door.
4) Judge Micheli examines the evidence of Antonio Curatolo. He says that although Curatolo mixes up his dates in his statement, he does have a fix on the night he saw Amanda and Raffaele in Piazza Grimana sometime around 11:00 to 11:30pm. Curatolo is certain it was the night before the Piazza filled up with policemen asking if anyone had seen Meredith. In his evidence, he says they came into the square from the direction of Via Pinturicchio and kept looking towards the cottage at Via della Pergola from a position in the square where they could see the entrance gate.
Judge Micheli reasons in his report that their arrival from Via Pinturicchio ties in with the evidence from Nara Capazzali that she heard someone run up the stairs in the direction of that street. He also reasons that they were likely watching the cottage to see if Meredith’s scream had resulted in the arrival of the police or other activity.
5) Judge Micheli examines the evidence of Hekuran Kokomani and finds him far from discredited. His says the testimony is garbled, his dates and times makes no sense but.... that Hekuran Kokomani was in the vicinity of the cottage on both 31st Oct. and 1st Nov isn’t in doubt. Furthermore, Micheli says that when he gave his statement, the details which he gave of the breakdown of the car, the tow truck and the people involved weren’t known by anyone else. He must have witnessed the breakdown in Via della Pergola. The same breakdown was also seen by Allessandra Formica shortly after Rudy Guede collided with her boyfriend.
This places Hekuran Kokomani outside the cottage right around the time of Meredith’s murder and he in turn places Raffaele Sollecito, Amanda Knox and Rudy Guede together outside the cottage at the same time. His evidence also places all three outside the cottage at some time the previous night.
Judge Michelii found that all this evidence implicated Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito as accomplices of Rudy Guede in the murder of Meredith Kercher.