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  1. #1
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    Paint tote

    How does the IDI's explain the paint tote?

    Could anyone except PR even think about using stuff in the paint tote during or after the murder.

    And don't just say it happened to be sitting outside the winecellar door on the floor. Someone brought it. Someone thinking

    "I need prop for this job"

  2. #2
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    Actually, both PR and her housekeeper Linda Hoffman-Pugh said that PR asked Linda to move the paint tote from the butler's pantry area, where it was kept, down to the basement. This was done just before the R Christmas party on Dec. 23rd. LHP did put the tote in the basement, but I have never read where she said exactly where she put it, or whether it was found still in the exact place she left it.
    It's hard to imagine an "intruder" knowing that the supplies for the garotte were right there in the paint tote (the cord, the paintbrush and possibly the duct tape). In a messy and cluttered basement, there must have been other places to look. It seems too coincidental that all the garotte materials were that handy.
    An intruder who had murdered JBR would not need to stage the murder. They also would not need to MAKE the garotte. They could have strangled her manually, or simply bashed her skull and left her for dead. If it was a stranger, JBR would not have been able to name her attacker, IF she survived a blow to the head like that.
    Only someone who was close to JBR and accidentally caused her death would have need of making it look like a murder/assault, then cover her with her own blanket. A stranger would leave her as she lay and get the h*ll out!
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  3. #3
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    In my experience, the IDI sometimes speculate that the killer relied upon finding "props" to murder JB with at the Ramsey house because he was concerned of being caught with suspicious items - doesn't explain why he wasn't worried about being caught with cord and tape, though, plus a possible stun gun. Some speculate that the killer brought the tape and cord in and hadn't thought of making a ligature with a handle until he saw the paintbrushes and it popped in his head. Some speculate that the killer just picked up whatever was handy whilst en route to strangle JB in the WC.

    Most of the time, they speculate that the killer used Patsy's paintbrush to frame the Rs, and that it was a bit of cunning genius to throw LE offtrack. Same with using their pen and paper for the RN.

    I think that the killer (Patsy) worked on instinct and as much familiarity as possible when staging this crime scene, and I think she instinctively used the "tools" that she was most familiar with - her art supplies, including her paintbrush, her Sharpie pen and her pad of paper upstairs to finish the deed (and undo it at the same time) with that insane RN. I think writing the rambling and overdramatic RN was also instinctive and familiar to Patsy, therefore a comfort to her in a time when she had to wing it due to complete lack of experience.

  4. #4
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    Most of the time, they speculate that the killer used Patsy's paintbrush to frame the Rs, and that it was a bit of cunning genius to throw LE offtrack. Same with using their pen and paper for the RN.
    Reminds me of the "Battle of Wits" in "The Princess Bride."

    Now, we know the tote was upstairs before the party.Some people try to say that's how Patsy's fibers got into it. But is there any proof she went anywhere near it at any time in those clothes?
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuisanceposter View Post
    In my experience, the IDI sometimes speculate that the killer relied upon finding "props" to murder JB with at the Ramsey house because he was concerned of being caught with suspicious items - doesn't explain why he wasn't worried about being caught with cord and tape, though, plus a possible stun gun. Some speculate that the killer brought the tape and cord in and hadn't thought of making a ligature with a handle until he saw the paintbrushes and it popped in his head. Some speculate that the killer just picked up whatever was handy whilst en route to strangle JB in the WC.

    Most of the time, they speculate that the killer used Patsy's paintbrush to frame the Rs, and that it was a bit of cunning genius to throw LE offtrack. Same with using their pen and paper for the RN.

    I think that the killer (Patsy) worked on instinct and as much familiarity as possible when staging this crime scene, and I think she instinctively used the "tools" that she was most familiar with - her art supplies, including her paintbrush, her Sharpie pen and her pad of paper upstairs to finish the deed (and undo it at the same time) with that insane RN. I think writing the rambling and overdramatic RN was also instinctive and familiar to Patsy, therefore a comfort to her in a time when she had to wing it due to complete lack of experience.
    Expressing the idea of beheading a child certainly had to be a comfort to her. Yeah right.

    I'll agree with you on the rambling overdramatic and insane RN, though.
    Now if you will please tell me if either PR or JR have any other exemplars of rambling or insane behavior, or is it just that one note on just that one night? You can take your time in answering.

  6. #6
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    Holden:

    Being a lurker and only brave enought to post once in a while. I was very interested when I saw your Holdontoyourhat as being the latest post.

    You had brought up a lot of good theories for the IDI'S, however you blew it for me tonight when I read your post.

    Expressing the idea of beheading a child certainly had to be a comfort to her
    Beheading?????????????????

    Where did/does that come from??

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    Reminds me of the "Battle of Wits" in "The Princess Bride."

    Now, we know the tote was upstairs before the party.Some people try to say that's how Patsy's fibers got into it. But is there any proof she went anywhere near it at any time in those clothes?
    The tote WAS upstairs before the party- but not JUST before. It was moved downstairs by LHP, not PR, a few days before, to make room for a coat rack to be placed in the butler's pantry for the party (according to PR and housekeeper LHP) so that doesn't explain PR's fibers being in the tote. It would be more likely to have found the housekeepers fibers on the tote. Interesting that there weren't. To me, this says that LHP handled the tote minimally, for the sole purpose of carrying it down to the basement. But PR actually rummaged around in the tote, as she looked for the materials to stage the crime. Her sleeves were in close proximity to the tote, and that is how the fibers got there. Also entwined in the nylon cord. This would indicate she handled the cord, but not necessarily that she made the garrotte. JR could have done that part.
    The fibers, also on the STICKY side of the tape that was against JBR's mouth, got there because PR was likely the one who handled the tape, too. I know forensics found a "perfect set of child's lip prints" inside the tape, indicating that JBR never struggled or moved after the tape was put on. But was there ever a mention of fingerprints? Of course, JR could explain HIS- he handily pulled the tape off- or DID he?
    PR also admitted to LE that she had never worn that outfit, especially the jacket, from which the fibers came, while painting.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Littledeer View Post
    Beheading?????????????????

    Where did/does that come from??
    Very good question. Not likely from the local culture. I'd say it is probably of foreign origin.

  9. #9
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    LOL.that's ridiculous.The garotte was applied in an attempt to account for the manual strangulation marks on JB's neck.Thus the 'beheading' comment.I don't believe the R's would have literally had the nerve to cut her head off.

    As per Dr. Werner Spitz,JB was manually strangled with her shirt collar first,with the perp's knuckles leaving the abrasions on the side of her neck.(a sign of rage and that the perp. was out of control).
    Interestingly enough,Wolfmarsgirl did research on that and found the imprint of the abrasions to match the cluster rings Patsy was wearing in one of her photos.
    THAT is the kind of evidence the GJ should have seen.

    And yes,I do believe Solace is correct when she says the large triangular mark on the front of JB's neck is a thumbprint.It fits perfectly with Dr Spitz's observations. I believe he knew that,too.It's likely something that has been seen before.And the fact the IDI's are barking over it makes me believe it even more.
    Last edited by JMO8778; 12-16-2007 at 06:57 AM.
    something to ponder:

    When the corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and the mortal have put on immortality, then shall we be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?

    The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
    But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    1 Corinthians 15:54-57

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuisanceposter View Post
    In my experience, the IDI sometimes speculate that the killer relied upon finding "props" to murder JB with at the Ramsey house because he was concerned of being caught with suspicious items - doesn't explain why he wasn't worried about being caught with cord and tape, though, plus a possible stun gun. Some speculate that the killer brought the tape and cord in and hadn't thought of making a ligature with a handle until he saw the paintbrushes and it popped in his head. Some speculate that the killer just picked up whatever was handy whilst en route to strangle JB in the WC.

    Most of the time, they speculate that the killer used Patsy's paintbrush to frame the Rs, and that it was a bit of cunning genius to throw LE offtrack. Same with using their pen and paper for the RN.

    I think that the killer (Patsy) worked on instinct and as much familiarity as possible when staging this crime scene, and I think she instinctively used the "tools" that she was most familiar with - her art supplies, including her paintbrush, her Sharpie pen and her pad of paper upstairs to finish the deed (and undo it at the same time) with that insane RN. I think writing the rambling and overdramatic RN was also instinctive and familiar to Patsy, therefore a comfort to her in a time when she had to wing it due to complete lack of experience.
    I agree NP.good post.it's the same way with how the RN is signed..'Victory and SBTC' ..Victory (in Christ) and Saved By The Cross...both religious comments.Much the same way ppl tend to chose a password they are familiar with,Patsy chose comments/words she was familiar with.They were in her personal 'dictionary' in her head.
    something to ponder:

    When the corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and the mortal have put on immortality, then shall we be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?

    The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
    But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    1 Corinthians 15:54-57


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat View Post
    Very good question. Not likely from the local culture. I'd say it is probably of foreign origin.
    and the perps are probably hanging out with Bin Laden having lunch right about now.
    something to ponder:

    When the corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and the mortal have put on immortality, then shall we be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?

    The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
    But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    1 Corinthians 15:54-57

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMO8778 View Post
    I agree NP.good post.it's the same way with how the RN is signed..'Victory and SBTC' ..Victory (in Christ) and Saved By The Cross...both religious comments.Much the same way ppl tend to chose a password they are familiar with,Patsy chose comments/words she was familiar with.They were in her personal 'dictionary' in her head.

    'Victory' is probably of foreign origin also. According to FBI, "... the term 'Victory' has revolutionary connotations that hark back to foreign powers."

  13. #13
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    Even the 'fat cat' reference, probably linked to class struggle, can be of foreign origin. The term expresses a POV against personal wealth. This POV is more likely to be held by a foreigner than a US citizen.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    Actually, both PR and her housekeeper Linda Hoffman-Pugh said that PR asked Linda to move the paint tote from the butler's pantry area, where it was kept, down to the basement. This was done just before the R Christmas party on Dec. 23rd. LHP did put the tote in the basement, but I have never read where she said exactly where she put it, or whether it was found still in the exact place she left it.
    It's hard to imagine an "intruder" knowing that the supplies for the garotte were right there in the paint tote (the cord, the paintbrush and possibly the duct tape). In a messy and cluttered basement, there must have been other places to look. It seems too coincidental that all the garotte materials were that handy.
    An intruder who had murdered JBR would not need to stage the murder. They also would not need to MAKE the garotte. They could have strangled her manually, or simply bashed her skull and left her for dead. If it was a stranger, JBR would not have been able to name her attacker, IF she survived a blow to the head like that.
    Only someone who was close to JBR and accidentally caused her death would have need of making it look like a murder/assault, then cover her with her own blanket. A stranger would leave her as she lay and get the h*ll out!
    Not only "cover her with her own blanket"....but, wrap her "like a papoose" in her own blanket. (She was wrapped like a papoose....and this is from John's own mouth...in his 1998 interview.)

    9 MIKE KANE: This is really important.

    10 That blanket, I mean, was it like there was care

    11 taken? It was neatly folded?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: I thought so, yeah.
    13 MIKE KANE: It wasn't like it was just

    14 barely thrown over her?

    15 JOHN RAMSEY: No, it looked like somebody

    16 was trying to make her comfortable, because it was

    17 under her, completely under her head and brought

    18 up around her, as if you would wrap a --

    19 MIKE KANE: Papoose?

    20 JOHN RAMSEY: -- a papoose.



    From Ames : Sounds like the way you would swaddle a baby....

    "This time we get it right."

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMO8778 View Post
    I agree NP.good post.it's the same way with how the RN is signed..'Victory and SBTC' ..Victory (in Christ) and Saved By The Cross...both religious comments.Much the same way ppl tend to chose a password they are familiar with,Patsy chose comments/words she was familiar with.They were in her personal 'dictionary' in her head.
    Speaking of 'Victory', read pg. 152 of DOI (hb version). Then check out the meaning of Collette.

    http://www.babynamesworld.com/meaning_of_Colette.html


    -Tea

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