Paint tote

tumble

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How does the IDI's explain the paint tote?

Could anyone except PR even think about using stuff in the paint tote during or after the murder.

And don't just say it happened to be sitting outside the winecellar door on the floor. Someone brought it. Someone thinking

"I need prop for this job"
 
Actually, both PR and her housekeeper Linda Hoffman-Pugh said that PR asked Linda to move the paint tote from the butler's pantry area, where it was kept, down to the basement. This was done just before the R Christmas party on Dec. 23rd. LHP did put the tote in the basement, but I have never read where she said exactly where she put it, or whether it was found still in the exact place she left it.
It's hard to imagine an "intruder" knowing that the supplies for the garotte were right there in the paint tote (the cord, the paintbrush and possibly the duct tape). In a messy and cluttered basement, there must have been other places to look. It seems too coincidental that all the garotte materials were that handy.
An intruder who had murdered JBR would not need to stage the murder. They also would not need to MAKE the garotte. They could have strangled her manually, or simply bashed her skull and left her for dead. If it was a stranger, JBR would not have been able to name her attacker, IF she survived a blow to the head like that.
Only someone who was close to JBR and accidentally caused her death would have need of making it look like a murder/assault, then cover her with her own blanket. A stranger would leave her as she lay and get the h*ll out!
 
In my experience, the IDI sometimes speculate that the killer relied upon finding "props" to murder JB with at the Ramsey house because he was concerned of being caught with suspicious items - doesn't explain why he wasn't worried about being caught with cord and tape, though, plus a possible stun gun. Some speculate that the killer brought the tape and cord in and hadn't thought of making a ligature with a handle until he saw the paintbrushes and it popped in his head. Some speculate that the killer just picked up whatever was handy whilst en route to strangle JB in the WC.

Most of the time, they speculate that the killer used Patsy's paintbrush to frame the Rs, and that it was a bit of cunning genius to throw LE offtrack. Same with using their pen and paper for the RN.

I think that the killer (Patsy) worked on instinct and as much familiarity as possible when staging this crime scene, and I think she instinctively used the "tools" that she was most familiar with - her art supplies, including her paintbrush, her Sharpie pen and her pad of paper upstairs to finish the deed (and undo it at the same time) with that insane RN. I think writing the rambling and overdramatic RN was also instinctive and familiar to Patsy, therefore a comfort to her in a time when she had to wing it due to complete lack of experience.
 
Most of the time, they speculate that the killer used Patsy's paintbrush to frame the Rs, and that it was a bit of cunning genius to throw LE offtrack. Same with using their pen and paper for the RN.

Reminds me of the "Battle of Wits" in "The Princess Bride."

Now, we know the tote was upstairs before the party.Some people try to say that's how Patsy's fibers got into it. But is there any proof she went anywhere near it at any time in those clothes?
 
In my experience, the IDI sometimes speculate that the killer relied upon finding "props" to murder JB with at the Ramsey house because he was concerned of being caught with suspicious items - doesn't explain why he wasn't worried about being caught with cord and tape, though, plus a possible stun gun. Some speculate that the killer brought the tape and cord in and hadn't thought of making a ligature with a handle until he saw the paintbrushes and it popped in his head. Some speculate that the killer just picked up whatever was handy whilst en route to strangle JB in the WC.

Most of the time, they speculate that the killer used Patsy's paintbrush to frame the Rs, and that it was a bit of cunning genius to throw LE offtrack. Same with using their pen and paper for the RN.

I think that the killer (Patsy) worked on instinct and as much familiarity as possible when staging this crime scene, and I think she instinctively used the "tools" that she was most familiar with - her art supplies, including her paintbrush, her Sharpie pen and her pad of paper upstairs to finish the deed (and undo it at the same time) with that insane RN. I think writing the rambling and overdramatic RN was also instinctive and familiar to Patsy, therefore a comfort to her in a time when she had to wing it due to complete lack of experience.

Expressing the idea of beheading a child certainly had to be a comfort to her. Yeah right.

I'll agree with you on the rambling overdramatic and insane RN, though.
Now if you will please tell me if either PR or JR have any other exemplars of rambling or insane behavior, or is it just that one note on just that one night? You can take your time in answering.
 
Holden:

Being a lurker and only brave enought to post once in a while. I was very interested when I saw your Holdontoyourhat as being the latest post.

You had brought up a lot of good theories for the IDI'S, however you blew it for me tonight when I read your post.

Expressing the idea of beheading a child certainly had to be a comfort to her

Beheading?????????????????

Where did/does that come from??
 
Reminds me of the "Battle of Wits" in "The Princess Bride."

Now, we know the tote was upstairs before the party.Some people try to say that's how Patsy's fibers got into it. But is there any proof she went anywhere near it at any time in those clothes?

The tote WAS upstairs before the party- but not JUST before. It was moved downstairs by LHP, not PR, a few days before, to make room for a coat rack to be placed in the butler's pantry for the party (according to PR and housekeeper LHP) so that doesn't explain PR's fibers being in the tote. It would be more likely to have found the housekeepers fibers on the tote. Interesting that there weren't. To me, this says that LHP handled the tote minimally, for the sole purpose of carrying it down to the basement. But PR actually rummaged around in the tote, as she looked for the materials to stage the crime. Her sleeves were in close proximity to the tote, and that is how the fibers got there. Also entwined in the nylon cord. This would indicate she handled the cord, but not necessarily that she made the garrotte. JR could have done that part.
The fibers, also on the STICKY side of the tape that was against JBR's mouth, got there because PR was likely the one who handled the tape, too. I know forensics found a "perfect set of child's lip prints" inside the tape, indicating that JBR never struggled or moved after the tape was put on. But was there ever a mention of fingerprints? Of course, JR could explain HIS- he handily pulled the tape off- or DID he?
PR also admitted to LE that she had never worn that outfit, especially the jacket, from which the fibers came, while painting.
 
LOL.that's ridiculous.The garotte was applied in an attempt to account for the manual strangulation marks on JB's neck.Thus the 'beheading' comment.I don't believe the R's would have literally had the nerve to cut her head off.

As per Dr. Werner Spitz,JB was manually strangled with her shirt collar first,with the perp's knuckles leaving the abrasions on the side of her neck.(a sign of rage and that the perp. was out of control).
Interestingly enough,Wolfmarsgirl did research on that and found the imprint of the abrasions to match the cluster rings Patsy was wearing in one of her photos.
THAT is the kind of evidence the GJ should have seen.

And yes,I do believe Solace is correct when she says the large triangular mark on the front of JB's neck is a thumbprint.It fits perfectly with Dr Spitz's observations. I believe he knew that,too.It's likely something that has been seen before.And the fact the IDI's are barking over it makes me believe it even more.
 
In my experience, the IDI sometimes speculate that the killer relied upon finding "props" to murder JB with at the Ramsey house because he was concerned of being caught with suspicious items - doesn't explain why he wasn't worried about being caught with cord and tape, though, plus a possible stun gun. Some speculate that the killer brought the tape and cord in and hadn't thought of making a ligature with a handle until he saw the paintbrushes and it popped in his head. Some speculate that the killer just picked up whatever was handy whilst en route to strangle JB in the WC.

Most of the time, they speculate that the killer used Patsy's paintbrush to frame the Rs, and that it was a bit of cunning genius to throw LE offtrack. Same with using their pen and paper for the RN.

I think that the killer (Patsy) worked on instinct and as much familiarity as possible when staging this crime scene, and I think she instinctively used the "tools" that she was most familiar with - her art supplies, including her paintbrush, her Sharpie pen and her pad of paper upstairs to finish the deed (and undo it at the same time) with that insane RN. I think writing the rambling and overdramatic RN was also instinctive and familiar to Patsy, therefore a comfort to her in a time when she had to wing it due to complete lack of experience.

I agree NP.good post.it's the same way with how the RN is signed..'Victory and SBTC' ..Victory (in Christ) and Saved By The Cross...both religious comments.Much the same way ppl tend to chose a password they are familiar with,Patsy chose comments/words she was familiar with.They were in her personal 'dictionary' in her head.
 
I agree NP.good post.it's the same way with how the RN is signed..'Victory and SBTC' ..Victory (in Christ) and Saved By The Cross...both religious comments.Much the same way ppl tend to chose a password they are familiar with,Patsy chose comments/words she was familiar with.They were in her personal 'dictionary' in her head.


'Victory' is probably of foreign origin also. According to FBI, "... the term 'Victory' has revolutionary connotations that hark back to foreign powers."
 
Even the 'fat cat' reference, probably linked to class struggle, can be of foreign origin. The term expresses a POV against personal wealth. This POV is more likely to be held by a foreigner than a US citizen.
 
Actually, both PR and her housekeeper Linda Hoffman-Pugh said that PR asked Linda to move the paint tote from the butler's pantry area, where it was kept, down to the basement. This was done just before the R Christmas party on Dec. 23rd. LHP did put the tote in the basement, but I have never read where she said exactly where she put it, or whether it was found still in the exact place she left it.
It's hard to imagine an "intruder" knowing that the supplies for the garotte were right there in the paint tote (the cord, the paintbrush and possibly the duct tape). In a messy and cluttered basement, there must have been other places to look. It seems too coincidental that all the garotte materials were that handy.
An intruder who had murdered JBR would not need to stage the murder. They also would not need to MAKE the garotte. They could have strangled her manually, or simply bashed her skull and left her for dead. If it was a stranger, JBR would not have been able to name her attacker, IF she survived a blow to the head like that.
Only someone who was close to JBR and accidentally caused her death would have need of making it look like a murder/assault, then cover her with her own blanket. A stranger would leave her as she lay and get the h*ll out!

Not only "cover her with her own blanket"....but, wrap her "like a papoose" in her own blanket. (She was wrapped like a papoose....and this is from John's own mouth...in his 1998 interview.)

9 MIKE KANE: This is really important.

10 That blanket, I mean, was it like there was care

11 taken? It was neatly folded?
12 JOHN RAMSEY: I thought so, yeah.
13 MIKE KANE: It wasn't like it was just

14 barely thrown over her?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: No, it looked like somebody

16 was trying to make her comfortable, because it was

17 under her, completely under her head and brought

18 up around her, as if you would wrap a --

19 MIKE KANE: Papoose?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: -- a papoose.



From Ames : Sounds like the way you would swaddle a baby....

 
I agree NP.good post.it's the same way with how the RN is signed..'Victory and SBTC' ..Victory (in Christ) and Saved By The Cross...both religious comments.Much the same way ppl tend to chose a password they are familiar with,Patsy chose comments/words she was familiar with.They were in her personal 'dictionary' in her head.
Speaking of 'Victory', read pg. 152 of DOI (hb version). Then check out the meaning of Collette.

http://www.babynamesworld.com/meaning_of_Colette.html


-Tea
 
Even the 'fat cat' reference, probably linked to class struggle, can be of foreign origin. The term expresses a POV against personal wealth. This POV is more likely to be held by a foreigner than a US citizen.

Based on what? I can go a few miles up the road to the local college and hear that kind of talk from plenty of people.

Now if you will please tell me if either PR or JR have any other exemplars of rambling or insane behavior, or is it just that one note on just that one night? You can take your time in answering.

No need to take my time, holdon. I'll be glad to do it now! Well, the rambling part. "Insane" is a rather subjective judgement. But If you want rambling, just watch any of the interviews Patsy gave with the police or the media. Any given answer will be overly long and elaborate, which, according to the laye Dr. Judianne Densen-Gerber, is classic guilt: you explain when you don't need to. Just off the top of my head, I remember Patsy was asked a question that would have needed a one-word answer. Her ensuing answer was like, 15 sentences. But if you wish more specific examples, I may aid you in this regard as well:

From the Barbara Walters interview:

PATSY RAMSEY: Let me tell you something. I am a cancer survivor of Stage 4 cancer. John has lost a child in an automobile accident. That completely changes your outlook When you are standing on the brink of death with a terminal illness your priorities suddenly line up.... in a row. And you know exactly what the important things are in life. And bed-wetting is totally insignificant. I love my children. I wouldn't ... harm them for anything in the world. Now I don't know how you answer someone that continually .... accuses you of some .... absurd notion.

and

PATSY RAMSEY: Um. I usually have something of hers with me all the time. I uh found this just recently when I had opened some boxes for the first time that I hadn't seen since we left Colorado. And um. You know to think that her little hand was ... was in this... (EMOTIONAL) glove and there's a little spot here where she obviously spilled something. And um. It makes me sad that that um (EMOTIONAL) you know there were happy little hands in this glove. Now they're gone.

From Larry King March 2000:

P. RAMSEY: She wore this one several times. She wore it at the -- for the Sunburst Pageant in Atlanta. I was on cloud nine watching her, because she was joust so full of spunk and energy, and it made me proud. People tried to make it seem ugly and something that it wasn't, and I just know how much fun it was, what a good time we had together doing it.

And

P. RAMSEY: Well, we spent a good deal of time talking about that in the book, and I think, without going into depth, we were prepared to go, if we were indicted, we were prepared to turn ourselves in, and that is a daunting thought. We had to make necessary preparations for Burke, especially. Papers had to be drawn up for his guardianship. We packed our bags to go to the jail house.

From 48 Hours October 2002:

Patsy Ramsey: "After John discovered the body and she was brought to the living room, when I laid eyes on her; I knelt down and hugged her. But I was, had my whole body on her body. My sweater fibers or whatever I had on that morning are going to transfer to her clothing. "

But when you read the police interviews, when John's not around to cut her off, THEN it gets REALLY interesting!

From Patsy's 1998 interview with Tom Haney:

Patsy Ramsey: "I don't give a flying flip how scientific it is. Go back to the damn drawing board. I didn't do it! John Ramsey didn't do it. And we didn't have a clue of anybody who did do it! So we all got to start working together from this day forward to try to find out who the hell did it! I mean, I appreciate being here. I appreciate it. It's very hard to be here, but it's a damn sight harder to be sitting at home in Atlanta Georgia wondering every second of every day what you guys are doing out here. You know, have you found anything? Are we any closer? Is the guy out here watching my house? You know, is my son safe? My life has been hell from that day forward and I want nothing more than to find out who is responsible for this."

and

Patsy Ramsey: "Didn't happen. If she got up in the night and ran into somebody, it was somebody there that wasn't supposed to be there. I don't know what transpired after that, whether it was an accident, intentional, premeditated or what not, but it was not one of her three family members that were also in that house. Period. End of statement."

All she had to say was "didn't happen."

and

17 TOM HANEY: So to the best of your

18 recollection, it was on, you think?

19 PATSY RAMSEY: I would say either

20 that light was on or there were also some

21 sconces right here on the stairwell, which were

22 dimmed and oftentimes we would leave that on,

23 because it was dimly lit as a night light sort

24 of lighting area.

25 TOM HANEY: Okay.

0025

1 PATSY RAMSEY: So something I am

2 sure was on, because it wasn't pitch black

3 walking down.


and

16 PATSY RAMSEY: They go in between,

17 they are in the stairway.

18 Okay, I come down here, and you

19 know, some of the rooms are light here where

20 these three pieces of paper were.

21 TOM HANEY: Which -- let me steal

22 that from you. Which running of the stairs were

23 they on?

24 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, it wasn't the

25 bottom one. I would say it was like -- I mean I

0031

1 had to bend over, you know, to look at it, you

2 know.

3 TOM HANEY: And when you first see

4 it, what's your first reaction?

5 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, my initial

6 reaction was that -- I mean, I probably would

7 stack things going upstairs, you know, shoes or

8 toys or whatever, that was -- and that would

9 take a load so there was typically always

10 something there, going one way or the other.

11 But this was laid out across the

12 tread, you know. This was laid out across the

13 treads, so I mean I just thought well, papers,

14 you know, John would have taken up to see or

15 something, I don't know. Thanks.

16 And then when I came down and

17 looked at it, glanced at it, my first reaction

18 was that it was a note from my cleaning lady.


and I could go on and on and on.

But I know what you'll say: it's all "after the fact" so it doesn't mean anything. I put a lot of work into this case. I'd really hate to think I've wasted it. So I have a few for you!

Now, the note never refers to JonBenet by name, right? Well, neither do the Ramseys in just about anything they say. I'm very interested in why. Could it be, possibly, that the note and their interviews don't mention her name for the same reason? That being that her name would make it "real" to the killer? Might it possibly be related to the fact that neither John nor Patsy mentions the pain and fear JB must have been in, but only in how their lives have been ruined? As if they were too interested in acting like victims to bother with the real victim? Well, for now, I'll have to go with the Bugs Bunny answer: Mmmmm, COULD BE! Lol

I have something else, as well. In the interview with Larry King, John said this:

J. RAMSEY: We've looked at leads whose handwriting scored much, much higher than Patsy's on a comparison scale.

Well, isn't that interesting. It would certainly be news to the police! To the DA! Now, it's fairly obvious, at least to me, that he's talking about the bought- and paid-for "analysis" the Ramseys hired their own team to do. Yet, for all this bravado on John's part, neither they nor their attorneys nor their hired experts have ever made their analyses public! They had no problem making their polygraph tests public. Their "intruder" sketch was made public. And to release this information would definitely deal my side a serious blow. All they had to do was put their money where their mouths were (or is it the other way around?). But nothing. And you don't have to take my word for it. Last year, during the Karr debacle, Darnay Hoffman was interviewed by Bill O'Reilly. Now, personally, I think a monkey could have done a better job with what he had than he did, but I couldn't help but agree with him when he said, and I quote:

The Ramseys have never released any of their handwriting reports, which they could have done and cleared Patsy immediately. They released a polygraph but none of their own reports which is suspect to begin with. The DA said he would never indict on probable cause; they needed beyond a reasonable doubt. But they're charging on probable cause with this suspect, John Karr.

Personally, to me it's irrelevant what the other side's personal feelings toward me are. But I can't not see what my eyes tell me. In order for me to believe that the Ramsey story is legit, I have to believe that what my eyes tell me are lies.
 
Sorry, SD, but implied was the exemplars need to be from before the fact, not after the fact. As a lawyer or a study of law I would think you'd know that.

Elaborating for your sake: Were there any exemplars of insane or rambling notes or statments, or brutally violent behavior, from before the night their daughter was murdered?

I didn't think so.
 
Sorry, SD, but implied was the exemplars need to be from before the fact, not after the fact. As a lawyer or a study of law I would think you'd know that.

Elaborating for your sake: Were there any exemplars of insane or rambling notes or statments, or brutally violent behavior, from before the night their daughter was murdered?

I didn't think so.

Well, JBR was the first child she killed, so there wouldn't be any priors.
 
SuperDave said:
I have something else, as well. In the interview with Larry King, John said this:

J. RAMSEY: We've looked at leads whose handwriting scored much, much higher than Patsy's on a comparison scale.
This is interesting because, according to handwriting scales, the higher the score, the less likely it is that the handwriting matches. Therefore, since Patsy is said to have scored a 4.5 and let's say these other leads scored a 6 or 7 and with a 1 being a match, then the others are less likely to have written the note than Patsy. (I'm basing this on the 1-9 scale Jayelles found.)


-Tea
 

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