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  1. #61
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    Can WE really make a difference?

    OK, I'm a little bummed out lately regarding Princess Blue's case. We can make suggestions on who might be a possible for Princess Blue but that is about all we can do.

    Right now, I'm interested in Anna Jovita Mallari and Pinkie Mae Davis-Herron (both were living in the Austin, TX area when they disappeared)being possibles for Princess Blue. Do we make these suggestions to LE or just post them here and leave it at that? I don't know if these ladies have any connections to Houston NOR do I know how we can find that out. I'm sure we could probably locate family members but I've been told that is a NO NO too. So what do we do??

    I guess I am about ready to call it quits and let things fall where they will. I just don't see how it really makes any difference??

  2. #62
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    RKnowley, please don't give up just yet, friend. Perhaps we can gather a few possibles together and send all of their info to LE. I see nothing wrong with researching family members so long as we are careful as to what we say to them. And, you always are careful and sensitive with what you say and how you say it. Since we can't rule out Annie or Pinkie, I think we should send them in as possibles. Maybe LE has more on them to rule them in or out.

    Lion

  3. #63
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    Hi Sloane!

    Thank you very much for this information regarding the process of getting DNA taken for family members of the missing & how it gets entered into CODIS.

    Is there any way (that you know of) that the average joe (like myself) can check to see if a missing persons DNA is already in CODIS or if LE has tried to make contact with that person's family to try and collect DNA from them to be entered into CODIS? Right now I would really like to find out if Anna (Ana) Jovita Mallari's http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/mpch/mp...4:11:27PM'& Pinkie Mae Davis-Herron's http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/mpch/mp...4:12:03PM'& Angela Phillips DNA http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/mpch/mp...2:17:30PM'is already in CODIS or if any family members have been contacted to submit their DNA?

    I would hate to send out a letter to family members asking for them to contact LE about having their DNA taken if LE has already been in contact in the past.

    Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by sloane View Post
    HI Lion-
    Yes, the agency that handles the familial reference samples with regard to missing persons cases is the same lab we have been mentioning regarding comparing Princess Blue with Cheatham and Jessie Foster with Princess Lavender...The Univ. of North TX's Health Science Center in Ft. Worth - Human Identity Lab. This is a federally funded facility and handles cases from all over the country, if not internationally as well, not just TX cases. The kits to obtain the buccal swabs from family members are free to LE and include a "pedigree chart," of sorts, so the scientisits understand exactly how the persons concerned are related to one another. The family members must have LE obtain the sample from them and then LE simply mails it in to the Lab, with associated paperwk. abt the MP case. The whole process is FREE !! The familial reference samples are first compared with everythg in the Lab's system (meaning, all UID remains from which they have obtained a DNA profile in the past). If there is no match, the samples are then uploaded into the state, national and intrntn'l levels, to be periodically checked against all other entries from other sources, like CODIS. Important to note - the fam. refnc. smpls. ARE NOT checked against criminal CODIS databases, they are only used in regard to identification for unknown persons. In short, if a fam. mbr. is hesitant to give their DNA bec. they are afraid they might be linked to a crime in their past, they don't have to be concerned w/ that. The Lab is concerned with solvg UID and MP cases solely. Does this make sense?
    So, if there are family members of MP out there, and they have never been requested to give a DNA sample for reference, they should contact the LE involved w their case and ask that this process be started. There is a chance that LE may not even know this opportunity exists. The Lab is trying to start educatg agencies abt this service - literally travlg, puttg on lectures, etc. to "get the word out." But if the LE involved doesn't know what to do, they can contact the Lab themselves, or the TXMPCH and they will walk them through it. Did I mention the whole process is FREE??!

    Hope this helps,

  4. #64
    sloane is offline "To those who are granted much, much is expected."
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    Hi there RKnowley! Good to see you didn't give up!! I know it can be frustrating and it's hard to keep waiting for answers, but you have too much to offer to not be involved ... and btw, there's nothing "average Joe" abt you!
    To try to answer your ?s...I don't know that a person not involved in the invstgtn. or a person directly involved with the MP (like a family mbr) could just find out such info. as you asked above. I'm trying to imagine what I would say to a stranger if my phone just rang one day and a person on the other end (albeit a NICE person!!) just started wanting to know what had been done in an invstgtn....I think the more fruitful route might be to have a family member do the asking of the LE involved in their case. And of course, I know not every family member or even all LE agencies know that this fam. refnc. DNA sample is a resource avail. to them. The Lab is trying to get more info. out abt that...the quicker, the better, imo...

    sloane
    Of all sad words of mouth and pen, the saddest are these: It might have been.

  5. #65
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    Hi Sloane,

    I think what I meant is we have the scenario that a "Jane Doe" was found, in this case Princess Blue. Then we have missing persons in TX who may fit Princess Blue's profile. Does LE contact family members of those missing persons and ask them to submit their DNA to see if there might be a match?

    If LE doesn't do so, then I am all for sending a letter out to the family of the missing person and telling them the procedure to have their DNA taken and entered into CODIS. I just wouldn't want to duplicate something LE has already done.

  6. #66
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    RKnowley, what sloane said is true. You are far from the average Joe. You are dedicated, intelligent, and you think like an investigator. I am glad to know and work with you on the three cases we work on together and on any case in the future, my friend.

    Sloane, it is so good to hear from you. Thank you again for your good sense and information.

    Lion

  7. #67
    sloane is offline "To those who are granted much, much is expected."
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    Awww...thanks, Lion!

    OK, RK...I understand what you mean more now...sadly, no, I don't think it is COMMON practice YET, and I stress the word YET, for LE invstgtg MPs to just get a standard sample on file of every MP's case's family members' DNA. BUT...it should be, and there are many diligent, dedicated and good-hearted people working to make that change. I think it won't be long before that will be a "check-off box" so-to-speak, on the list of what to do when invstgtg a MP. It seems incredulous to some of us that it isn't already in place, but change comes abt slowly and mis-info. can happen easily, as we've seen in the case of the someone posting that PLav was ID'd as someone out of San Antonio, TX. That isn't even close to true, but yet once it's posted on the Net, off it goes, into the black hole of mis-information.
    If it helps make anyone feel any better I know of one LE agency that has over 100 MP cases from over the decades, and they did not know abt getting familial refnc samples. Since they found out, they started a "task force," rounded up a bunch of kits from the Lab, and have had a couple of detcv's. addressing EVERY case to update it and go to the homes to get the cheek swab. Cool, yes? I was so proud of them! So yes, WE CAN make a difference, in the owrds of John Walsh!
    Of all sad words of mouth and pen, the saddest are these: It might have been.

  8. #68
    Originally Posted by RKnowley:
    Can WE really make a difference?
    OK, I'm a little bummed out lately regarding Princess Blue's case. We can make suggestions on who might be a possible for Princess Blue but that is about all we can do.
    Yes. All you can do is suggest. Unless you are LE or retired LE you can not work on the case. You will not get access to the entire casefile, such as hold-back information and other potentially vital info. You won't have names of witnesses or family members to aid in the investigation. Even if you have a PI license you will not have all this data.

    However all that does not mean you can not do anything.

    Do we make these suggestions to LE or just post them here and leave it at that?
    Posting them here is good for several reasons. You can discuss the case with other people like yourselves and analyze the information you do have. Multiple investigators are better than one investigator.

    Only posting your suggestions here is bad. Only posting here is the equivalent of standing on your front porch and reading your suggestion aloud. The chances of anyone connected to the investigation hearing you are nil.

    I'm sure we could probably locate family members but I've been told that is a NO NO too. So what do we do??
    Do not contact family members unless they have indicated publicly that they wish to be contacted.

    I guess I am about ready to call it quits and let things fall where they will. I just don't see how it really makes any difference??
    Most police departments are overworked and understaffed. This is especially true in major cities. The manpower will never be allocated to solve thirty year old cold cases when crimes from last week still need to be investigated.

    No law enforcement officers will investigate Princess Blue unless YOU show them something to investigate.

    Show them your tips, clues, guesses and suggestions.

    Contact the LE in charge of the investigation originally. Make up a data sheet of the crime and your tips and suggestions. Do it as professionally as possible. Cite everything.

    Contact at least three newstations, newspapers, etc. in the area of the crime. Give them all copies of your data sheet. Suggest that they run the story as a human-interest thing. Ask them to keep the story on file for times when news is slow.

    As a note. There are many times when there are no "big" stories going on. No wars, bombs, car accidents, celebrity news, etc. This is when the news stations hit their "filler" stories. Unsolved crimes and mysteries resonate. They catch the imagination. They tug at your heartstrings. News stations love to run stuff like that. Now you can get reporters and journalists involved. They can shame the police and LE into actually working on the case.

    I just don't see how it really makes any difference??
    Princess Blue has been dead for decades. She lost her life, her future and even her name. She has been forgotten. Unless people remember, she will always remain unknown and unidentified.

    People like you are the only chance she has of being identified.

  9. #69
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    Xcom,

    Thank you for your post. Have you read through all of Princess Blue's threads to see exactly what has been done in order to try and identify Princess Blue? Media has been contacted and they did publish stories, hundreds of 1975 Robert E Lee High School Class alumni were sent letters, LE has been contacted (the original LE on this case), posts have been posted on the internet about Princess Blue, myspace pages have been made, etc.

    Right now though, it just seems like we are posting possibles for Princess Blue and not doing anything to try and rule them in or out. With a lot of these cases there is not much to go on available to us.

    I myself disagree that we should not contact family members of a missing person to try and find out more about that missing person and to also see if they will submit a DNA sample to add to CODIS. I have found that most family members are glad to be contacted about their loved one & that that person has not been forgotten.

    I do agree however that a missing persons family should not be contacted and told something like "Hey, I think this so and so UID may be a match to your loved one." It is not up to us to tell them something like that.

    Anyhow, sometimes it does seem hopeless that even after all we have done there is still no answer to "Who is Princess Blue?"

    I just need to take some time to regroup and decide what is the next best step to take.

  10. #70
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    ty Lion for your kind words I have very much enjoyed working with you on the 3 cases we are both involved in. I hope we can find a resolution to those cases as well as many others in the future.


    Quote Originally Posted by LionRun View Post
    RKnowley, what sloane said is true. You are far from the average Joe. You are dedicated, intelligent, and you think like an investigator. I am glad to know and work with you on the three cases we work on together and on any case in the future, my friend.

    Sloane, it is so good to hear from you. Thank you again for your good sense and information.

    Lion


  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by RKnowley View Post
    Xcom,

    Thank you for your post. Have you read through all of Princess Blue's threads to see exactly what has been done in order to try and identify Princess Blue? Media has been contacted and they did publish stories, hundreds of 1975 Robert E Lee High School Class alumni were sent letters, LE has been contacted (the original LE on this case), posts have been posted on the internet about Princess Blue, myspace pages have been made, etc.

    Right now though, it just seems like we are posting possibles for Princess Blue and not doing anything to try and rule them in or out. With a lot of these cases there is not much to go on available to us.
    No, I have not read all of the threads. I was just offering suggestions based on what I have considered doing myself. Have you forwarded your suggestions to the appropriate LE?

    As far as ruling anyone out, I don't think anybody can do that except LE and maybe DNA testing.

    Quote Originally Posted by RKnowley View Post
    I myself disagree that we should not contact family members of a missing person to try and find out more about that missing person and to also see if they will submit a DNA sample to add to CODIS. I have found that most family members are glad to be contacted about their loved one & that that person has not been forgotten.

    I do agree however that a missing persons family should not be contacted and told something like "Hey, I think this so and so UID may be a match to your loved one." It is not up to us to tell them something like that.
    You are right.

    Quote Originally Posted by RKnowley View Post
    Anyhow, sometimes it does seem hopeless that even after all we have done there is still no answer to "Who is Princess Blue?"

    I just need to take some time to regroup and decide what is the next best step to take.
    Maybe you could contact the LE and ask them for suggestions. After all, you're not trying to solve the case, you're focusing on ID'ing the victim.


    Anyway, I apologize if I was (or am) suggesting things you've already done. It says a great deal that you are willing to invest time and energy to help a total stranger who's been dead and forgotten for years.

    It's not the success or failure that counts. It's the effort made in the attempt.

  12. #72
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    No need to apologize about anything. I was just wondering if you had read the threads and knew of the things we had tried already as you had some good suggestions and it would be great if you wanted to help out in the search for Princess Blue's identity. The more heads working on this the better! Thanks again for your input!

    Quote Originally Posted by XcomSquaddie View Post
    Anyway, I apologize if I was (or am) suggesting things you've already done. It says a great deal that you are willing to invest time and energy to help a total stranger who's been dead and forgotten for years.

    It's not the success or failure that counts. It's the effort made in the attempt.

  13. #73
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    I sent an email off today to the cold case detective in charge of Pinkie's case. I asked him if he could tell us if Pinkie's DNA was in CODIS and also asked if it were noted anywhere what kind of ring Pinkie wore on her right hand, 3rd finger. I also asked if there were any other identifiers listed in Pinkie's records that may help rule Pinkie out as being Princess Blue. I sent all of Pinkie's doenetwork information and Princess Blue's information in the email. I will let you know if I hear back from him.


    Quote Originally Posted by RKnowley View Post
    Would like some thoughts on this lady. Is she a possible for Princess Blue? She is listed as bi-racial black/white/hispanic. I wonder how we could find out what kind of ring she wore on her right hand (3rd finger)?


    Pinkie Mae Davis-Herron
    Missing since January 1, 1979 from Del Valle, Travis County, Texas.
    Classification: Endangered Missing

    Vital Statistics
    • Date Of Birth: January 31, 1956
    • Age at Time of Disappearance: 23 years old
    • Height and Weight at Time of Disappearance: 5'3"; 120-130 lbs.
    • Distinguishing Characteristics: Bi-racial female (Black/White/Hispanic). Brown hair; hazel/brown eyes. Petite frame.
    • Jewelry: Wore a ring on the right hand 3rd finger
    • Dentals: Not available


    Circumstances of Disappearance
    Davis-Herron was last seen heading down to Tex Golden Nugget, a Motel in the neighborhood were she worked.
    Some friends saw her driving in that direction and she blew her horn at them and waved. She has never been seen again.

    Investigators
    If you have any information concerning this case, please contact:
    Travis County Sheriff's Department
    Detective Jim Anderson
    512-854-3234
    Agency Case Number: 04-36882 NCIC Number: M-056167540
    Please refer to this number when contacting any agency with information regarding this case.

    Source: http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/1506dftx.html

  14. #74
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    Good deal, RKnowley! Thank you!

    Lion

  15. #75
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    Should we send an email off to all of the investigators in the missing persons cases, rather than sending to Sgt. Coffman asking if Princess Blue could be a possible, and also inquiring if the familial samples have been obtained? Maybe put the information into the email...just shooting out ideas here.

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