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  1. #1
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    Incest Crime vs Rage Attack

    Does a crime of incest resulting in death actually account for more of the evidence and behavior of the offender(s) than does the popular rage attack theory?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tober View Post
    Does a crime of incest resulting in death actually account for more of the evidence and behavior of the offender(s) than does the popular rage attack theory?
    Why the need to seperate the two? Why not a rage attack because of incest?


    -Tea

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by icedtea4me View Post
    Why the need to seperate the two? Why not a rage attack because of incest?


    -Tea
    Yes, the crime can be a "sexual-rage" attack. It can also be part incest (one offender), and part rage (the other offender), with the 2nd offender directing rage at the perpetrator of the incest, at the victim, or at both.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by icedtea4me View Post
    Why the need to seperate the two? Why not a rage attack because of incest?


    -Tea
    I agree with you. Tea. For if it was a rage attack, it could have been related to the incest itself (though not necessarily).

    Then there also exists the possibility that it was a rage attack which was not related to incest, but still JonBenet could have been the victim of chronic sexual abuse.
    While the Ramsey case a slam dunk case against the parents in terms of their having covered up the true reason of JonBenet's death
    (Patsy Ramsey ought to have been arrested as the main stager of the cover-up), it is a most intricate case in terms of who did what in relation to the homicide itself.

    While there was evidence pointing to chronic molestation, this evidence was not conclusive enough in terms of proof beyond reasonable doubt.

    An acute vaginal wound was inflicted which bled.
    Circumferential reddish hyperemia (= reddish indicates it was fresh, not yet in the processof healing) inside the vestibule of the vagina extending just inside the vaginal orifice could point to sexual contact involving digital manipulation/penetration.

    But again, these manipulations/injuries could also have been inflicted for staging purposes.

    In short, one gets many variables.

    Possible questions:

    Was JonBenet the victim of chronic sexual abuse?

    If yes, who was her sexual abuser?

    If yes, was the sexual abuse the reason for her violent death (not necessarily)

    Was her sexual abuser also her killer? (again, not necessarily!)

    How much did the person who was the main stager of the scene know about the chronic sexual abuse?


    What exactly happened in that house and why? No Ramsey will ever tell us imo.

    I also don t think that Burke will one day speak about it. Who knows if he wasn't involved himself.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by rashomon View Post
    I agree with you. Tea. For if it was a rage attack, it could have been related to the incest itself (though not necessarily).

    Then there also exists the possibility that it was a rage attack which was not related to incest, but still JonBenet could have been the victim of chronic sexual abuse.
    While the Ramsey case a slam dunk case against the parents in terms of their having covered up the true reason of JonBenet's death
    (Patsy Ramsey ought to have been arrested as the main stager of the cover-up), it is a most intricate case in terms of who did what in relation to the homicide itself.

    While there was evidence pointing to chronic molestation, this evidence was not conclusive enough in terms of proof beyond reasonable doubt.

    An acute vaginal wound was inflicted which bled.
    Circumferential reddish hyperemia (= reddish indicates it was fresh, not yet in the processof healing) inside the vestibule of the vagina extending just inside the vaginal orifice could point to sexual contact involving digital manipulation/penetration.

    But again, these manipulations/injuries could also have been inflicted for staging purposes.

    In short, one gets many variables.

    Possible questions:

    Was JonBenet the victim of chronic sexual abuse?

    If yes, who was her sexual abuser?

    If yes, was the sexual abuse the reason for her violent death (not necessarily)

    Was her sexual abuser also her killer? (again, not necessarily!)

    How much did the person who was the main stager of the scene know about the chronic sexual abuse?


    What exactly happened in that house and why? No Ramsey will ever tell us imo.

    I also don t think that Burke will one day speak about it. Who knows if he wasn't involved himself.
    This is true. Even though Burke always seemed quite shy...my mom used to say..."Shallow water runs deep". When I was little, I had NO idea what that meant...LOL

    If he was though...how would that explain him being heard on the 911 call? Didn't he say..."What did you find?" Or something like that? I actually heard that tape played on some news show...but, I can't remember now, what exactly it was that he said. Anyway, if he was involved, I don't think that he would have been saying.."What did you find?" A thought just occured to me...maybe, his panicky parents voices, woke him up. He came downstairs just as Patsy was on the phone with 911, and he overheard her talking about the ransom note that was "found". The Ransom Note is what he was talking about...when he said..."What did you find?" IMO Like he caught the end of the conversation...and was like..."okay, now...what is it you found that said this"?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tober View Post
    Does a crime of incest resulting in death actually account for more of the evidence and behavior of the offender(s) than does the popular rage attack theory?

    If so we will never know because in Colorado if what you are suggesting is Burke had something to do with this and I beleive that is what you are suggesting that is an uncrossable bridge. Anyone age 10 in Colorado would be protected vigorously under the law It would never be released or acknowledged or for that matter prosecuted. But would it not reason if that was the case that all the staging would have been an unnecessary step ?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by rashomon View Post
    I agree with you. Tea. For if it was a rage attack, it could have been related to the incest itself (though not necessarily).

    Then there also exists the possibility that it was a rage attack which was not related to incest, but still JonBenet could have been the victim of chronic sexual abuse.
    While the Ramsey case a slam dunk case against the parents in terms of their having covered up the true reason of JonBenet's death
    (Patsy Ramsey ought to have been arrested as the main stager of the cover-up), it is a most intricate case in terms of who did what in relation to the homicide itself.

    While there was evidence pointing to chronic molestation, this evidence was not conclusive enough in terms of proof beyond reasonable doubt.

    An acute vaginal wound was inflicted which bled.
    Circumferential reddish hyperemia (= reddish indicates it was fresh, not yet in the processof healing) inside the vestibule of the vagina extending just inside the vaginal orifice could point to sexual contact involving digital manipulation/penetration.

    But again, these manipulations/injuries could also have been inflicted for staging purposes.

    In short, one gets many variables.

    Possible questions:

    Was JonBenet the victim of chronic sexual abuse?

    If yes, who was her sexual abuser?

    If yes, was the sexual abuse the reason for her violent death (not necessarily)

    Was her sexual abuser also her killer? (again, not necessarily!)

    How much did the person who was the main stager of the scene know about the chronic sexual abuse?


    What exactly happened in that house and why? No Ramsey will ever tell us imo.

    I also don t think that Burke will one day speak about it. Who knows if he wasn't involved himself.
    Not out of the realm of possible but What if things were just nuts in that house lately. Literally one flew over the cuckoo nest know what I mean (?) and for some reason a out of control maddness moment occured what if and I am way out on a limb speculating now, but what if it was some Bizzare combination of Both. If Burke was somehow part the law would prevent knowledge of that ever seeping out. What we know is that it was staged. Either scenario has very valid reasoning to never allowing the light of day to shine on the truth. I am afraid the only ones that could ever clarify this for us are dead or sworn to go to their graves with the truth. Patsy has said from that moment everything about Burke in fact I think she said that in her very last interview in her life... now she is gone and will live with the consequences of that decision unrepentant. That is a whole other conversation

  8. #8
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    Arrow

    I believe more that it was a case of John molesting her and getting carried away and accidentally killing her than a rage attack by Patsy, however I believe Patsy stood by her man and had a major role in the cover-up.
    This is the year to locate Mark Dribin http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...ht=Mark+Dribin NamUs MP#876 and Ilene Misheloff http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...lene+Misheloff NamUs MP#6410 and bring them home to their families!

    Parents watch your children. Free-range parenting leads to more child victims.

    Cruelty to humans begins with cruelty to animals.

    I believe in closure, not forgiveness. I'm also unapologetically judgemental.

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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by rashomon View Post
    If yes, was the sexual abuse the reason for her violent death (not necessarily)
    Since the acute vaginal trauma and the homicide occured around the same time (or relatively close together), imo it seems highly propable that the sexual abuse in one way or another led to the death. It's hard to imagine the acute vaginal trauma as staging, in light of the chronic vaginal trauma.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tober View Post
    Does a crime of incest resulting in death actually account for more of the evidence and behavior of the offender(s) than does the popular rage attack theory?
    I toss these two aspects of the crime back and forth all the time. While not mutually exclusive, death from rage attack and a death from sex abuse to me have different perpetrators. If her death was the result of a rage attack ALONE (and the rest of it was staging) then I see PR as the perpetrator with JR helping with the coverup. If her death was the result of (or part of) sexual abuse then I see either JR or JAR as the perpetrator, with PR helping with the coverup.
    One way I see it is if she was being abused (maybe with the garrote, maybe not) and she screamed (the scream that was heard by Mrs. Stanton) and then was bashed on the head to silence her (not intending to kill her).
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tober View Post
    Since the acute vaginal trauma and the homicide occured around the same time (or relatively close together), imo it seems highly propable that the sexual abuse in one way or another led to the death. It's hard to imagine the acute vaginal trauma as staging, in light of the chronic vaginal trauma.
    Imo the stager of the scene could have wanted to camouflage chronic sexual abuse by inflicting the acute wound. So that the investigators should think all damage to JonBenet's genitals had been done by the sexual predator on that night.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by LinasK View Post
    I believe more that it was a case of John molesting her and getting carried away and accidentally killing her than a rage attack by Patsy, however I believe Patsy stood by her man and had a major role in the cover-up.
    Would Patsy have covered up for he man who had killed JonBenet, the apple of her eye? I always had the feeling that the only person Patsy would cover up for was herself. Maybe for Burke also, but for John?

    What did John tell her - that he both molested and killed JonBenet and on top of that expected Patsy to stage the scene for him?
    Also, I find it very hard to imagine that John would have jabbed a broken paintbrush into the child's vagina for sexual gratification.

  13. #13
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    IF JR did it,then did he perhaps threaten Patsy? For one,she needed access to enough money in case her cancer came back...she also wanted to give the outside world the appearance of 'perfection'.But,like I said,that's an 'IF JR did it' scenario.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMO8778 View Post
    IF JR did it,then did he perhaps threaten Patsy? For one,she needed access to enough money in case her cancer came back...she also wanted to give the outside world the appearance of 'perfection'.But,like I said,that's an 'IF JR did it' scenario.
    Possibly, but I can't see JR's threats keeping her silent over the years. PR didn't have to stay with a husband who sexually assaulted then killed their 6-year old daughter. PR could have taken her son and gone back to Atlanta to live with her parents, she had friends there too. I could be underestimating her shallowness, but even to maintain her lifestyle, it's a stretch to think of her covering for JR alone, even JAR. If PR was only involved in the coverup and not the actual event, then I am afraid I'd have to put BR there when she died- as an observer or participant, not the sole perpetrator. He is the only one I'd see her covering for (other than herself).
    That's why I lean towards a rage attack by PR, with JR helping with the coverup. Why would he be willing to do this? It's complex, but I feel that there are several reasons. One- when PR acted, it was an accident. If you feel JR killed her during or as part of a sexual assault, THAT wasn't an accident. He also considered his son; he may not have wanted to put his cancer survivor wife in prison or a mental home; he may not have wanted his son to go though the trauma of seeing his mother tried for this crime. IT may have been as simple as not wanting to raise his son alone. But the main difference that I see with why JR would help cover for PR while PR would NOT cover for JR is down to one thing- If PR is the killer, it was the result of a rage attack and not intentional; If JR is the killer, it was the result of sexual abuse- with her screaming and him bashing her skull to shut her up. While he may not have intended to kill her, it isn't the same kind of unintentional event as it is with PR accidentally killing her by slamming her head.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    Possibly, but I can't see JR's threats keeping her silent over the years. PR didn't have to stay with a husband who sexually assaulted then killed their 6-year old daughter. PR could have taken her son and gone back to Atlanta to live with her parents, she had friends there too. I could be underestimating her shallowness, but even to maintain her lifestyle, it's a stretch to think of her covering for JR alone, even JAR. If PR was only involved in the coverup and not the actual event, then I am afraid I'd have to put BR there when she died- as an observer or participant, not the sole perpetrator. He is the only one I'd see her covering for (other than herself).
    That's why I lean towards a rage attack by PR, with JR helping with the coverup. Why would he be willing to do this? It's complex, but I feel that there are several reasons. One- when PR acted, it was an accident. If you feel JR killed her during or as part of a sexual assault, THAT wasn't an accident. He also considered his son; he may not have wanted to put his cancer survivor wife in prison or a mental home; he may not have wanted his son to go though the trauma of seeing his mother tried for this crime. IT may have been as simple as not wanting to raise his son alone. But the main difference that I see with why JR would help cover for PR while PR would NOT cover for JR is down to one thing- If PR is the killer, it was the result of a rage attack and not intentional; If JR is the killer, it was the result of sexual abuse- with her screaming and him bashing her skull to shut her up. While he may not have intended to kill her, it isn't the same kind of unintentional event as it is with PR accidentally killing her by slamming her head.
    Consider also that Ramsey himself would not have wanted all he worked for down the drain. No, much better that you try to garner the sympathies of the world at least the nation with some Intruder Did it. So far... thanks to stonewalling and friends it appears if all that is so to be working for them.

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