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  1. #1
    Blue_Dolphin308's Avatar
    Blue_Dolphin308 is offline We can't help everyone, But everyone can help someone!
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    Warren Jeffs FLDS compound in Texas surrounded by police #5

    Ok I am taking the initiative to start a new thread Continuing from here

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    SewingDeb's Avatar
    SewingDeb is offline "Sorry, I'm not qualified to land the plane."
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    Thanks Ladybass!

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    Fairy1

    Not really. He's no different than any other criminal who wishes to appear "insane." I seriously doubt Warren Jeffs believes he will be incarcerated for long, but he's smart enough to hedge his bets.

    He might be thinking that when it comes time for his parole hearing in November 2010 that he'll get out. Just because he gets a hearing doesn't mean he's going anywhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ladybass0711 View Post
    Ok I am taking the initiative to start a new thread Continuing from here
    Thank once again Ladybass. And, thank you for all that you have contributed to case discussion here.

    Lion

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    Thanks Ladybass!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mollymalone View Post
    Fairy1

    Not really. He's no different than any other criminal who wishes to appear "insane." I seriously doubt Warren Jeffs believes he will be incarcerated for long, but he's smart enough to hedge his bets.

    He might be thinking that when it comes time for his parole hearing in November 2010 that he'll get out. Just because he gets a hearing doesn't mean he's going anywhere.
    Molly,
    The more I read of Warren Jeffs, the more convinced I am that this man is nothing more than a common criminal.

    Does anyone know how it's handled if Warren Jeffs is convicted of the charges in the Arizona case? Will he serve his sentence in Utah, and when he's eventually paroled be turned over to Arizona to begin serving his sentence there? Or will the Utah and Arizona courts agree to Jeffs serving his sentences concurrent in one state, or consecutive in one state?

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    Replying to SuzieQ in the last thread....

    I realize there are some very distinct differences in the mainstream LDS faith and the splinter FLDS "Faith" - but I did want to point out that the premises Warren Jeffs is "selling" to his flock are based in the Book of Mormon and the history of the faith - starting with Joseph Smith and his many wives. Brigham Young may have been the one to WRITE the "Polygamy doctrine" (or reveal the revelation), but it was Joseph Smith who DID IT FIRST - and declared plural celestial marriage a requirement for becoming "Gods and Goddesses" in the afterlife...much to the dismay of his 1st (and only legal) wife. Warren Jeffs has used these early writings to fortify his position that Mainstream Mormons are the ones who have it all wrong and they (the FLDS) are the TRUE faithful - and the ONLY ones who will be going to heaven - because the LDS Church has supposedly turned it's back on the REAL TRUTH as revealed to Joseph Smith and his "apostles". Jeff's words are, like the best "cons and lies", built on a base of truth - giving his teachings that essential aura of respectability and legitimacy. And you know, I think at some point he got drunk on the power - pretty heady stuff for a nerdy, wimpy, unattractive little man... more and more power (and adoration, and yes "worship") made him believe his own BS... in his words, LDS members are referred to as "gentiles" by the FLDS - along with the rest of us...who are also "infidels". It's like Warren really thinks he is creating a new Israel with the FLDS - and maybe he has begun to think himself the modern "Jesus" - persecuted, imprisoned, punished (crucified in a way) by the heathens and the "beast" for his faith.....

    Warren Jeffs (and his father Rulon Jeffs and his main Apostle Merril Jessop who is in charge at YFZ Ranch) have corrupted and distorted the Book of Mormon - as well as the history of the faith and Joseph Smith's story to support twisted, cruel, abusive beliefs and teachings. Like other intelligent and totally whacko "Leaders" before him (Charles Manson, Jim Jones et al) - Jeffs cleverly and deliberately distorted, took out of context, edited and convoluted selected parts and history of an established faith to make it FIT his vision and give him more control over his followers. He is very persuasive in a passive-aggressive way - his lectures sound so benign in tone and he appears so non-threatening (like Mr Rogers)- and yet the content chills me to the bone. And he goes into such long, protracted detail about every utterance made by the founders on polygamy (and so convoluted and boring) - and then suddenly goes off on a tangent and twists it all into some horrid edict of his it was NEVER intended to support. His egomanical delusions of grandeur and obvious enjoyment and pleasure in having total control over every aspect of every member's lives is clear - that monotone, emotionless voice sounds like it was born in the iciest heart in the depths of some black and festering place - where he (and the "men") create their own little piece of hell on earth for women and children.
    My Opinion
    Some background (excerpts)from Carolyn Jessop's book "Escape"
    FLDS Beliefs
    Page 17: The FLDS split from the Mormon Church more than 100 years ago, after the latter outlawed polygamy. Members, like the 19th century Mormons, believe that "[a] man must have multiple wives if he expects to do well in heaven, where he can eventually become a god and wind up with his own planet." Not every man marries multiple wives; being encouraged to take more than three signifies that you're considered important by the leaders of the community.
    Page 25: In a favorite children's game, called Apocalypse, kids act out the FLDS vision of the end of the world. According to FLDS lore, Native Americans who were mistreated and killed in pioneer days will be resurrected in the end times, when God will allow them to wreak vengeance on those who wronged them - by killing FLDS enemies with invisible tomahawks that can sever a person's heart in half.
    Page 37: Carolyn, who grew up in the FLDS communities of Colorado City, Ariz., and Hildale, Utah, was educated in a "public school," but the teachers and students, like the rest of the area community, were almost exclusively FLDS members. They were taught that dinosaurs never existed and man never landed on the moon.
    Prophet Motives
    Pages 72-73: The community's rules changed as different leaders—called prophets—established different priorities. When Carolyn was 18, the prophet was a man called Uncle Roy, who gave her permission to attend college, an honor granted to very few girls in the community. But there was one major caveat: In order to do so, Carolyn had to marry Merril Jessop, a 50-year-old man with a reputation for cruelty who already had three wives.
    Page 313: When Uncle Roy died in 1986, a man called Uncle Rulon took over. But Rulon was elderly and frail, and his favored son, Warren Jeffs, held the reins for many years. Carolyn says that marrying off underage girls was relatively rare before Rulon: "When Uncle Rulon first came to power, girls didn't marry until they were over twenty. After his first stroke, the age dropped into the late teens. The sicker he got, the younger the brides in the community became."
    Page 234: As the FLDS leadership became increasingly radicalized, Uncle Rulon began to discuss blood atonement, a draconian punishment for anyone who committed "immoral" acts for which there could be no forgiveness … such as fornication and adultery." Blood atonement, Carolyn explains, is "murder": The sinner submits to being killed as punishment for his or her crimes.
    Bad Medicine
    Page 189: FLDS leaders don't look kindly on modern medicine. During childbirth, "a doctor was never present, nor was pain medication ever used. Women were expected to be perfectly silent during childbirth. If a woman screamed or made loud noises she was criticized for being out of control. Sometimes she'd be reprimanded by her husband during her delivery.
    Page 231: Uncle Rulon "began preaching that anyone who needed medical help to heal was a person of little faith. A person in harmony with God could heal him or herself with fasting and prayer
    Page 275: Merril blamed Carolyn when their seventh child became gravely ill: "You can take him to every damn doctor you can find, but no one will be able to heal him. God is going to destroy his life because of the sins of his mother."
    Warren Jeffs
    Pages 216, 223, 231, and 234: As Rulon's deputy, Jeffs banned the color red; movies, television, and the Internet ("except for business purposes"); clothing with "large prints" or plaid; immunizations; and sex not for procreation.
    Page 197: The Jeffs family had "a rigid rule … against becoming obese.
    Pages 324-325: Jeffs began to kick young boys out of the community—"more than a hundred teenage boys" within a month's span, at one point—for crimes like "listening to CDs, watching movies, or kissing girls.
    http://www.slate.com/id/2189275/pagenum/all/

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    Three Girls for Every Boy

    Where does the FLDS find all those women?

    -that each man partners with at least three women—is essential to salvation. How does the church get enough ladies to go around?The FLDS doesn't recruit from outside the ranks. To reduce competition for wives, the church systematically expels adolescent boys
    -It's estimated that the FLDS has thrown out between 400 and 1,400 male members in the last decade.Church elders excommunicate boys as young as 14 ostensibly for bad behavior—like flirting with girls, watching a movie, listening to rock music, drinking, playing basketball, or wearing short-sleeve shirts
    -The sect also expels married men who violate religious tenets. After the wrongdoer leaves, the church leader reassigns his wives to loyalists. In theory, those who repent in earnest can be reunited with their families. In practice, almost no one is allowed back.
    - Warren Jeffs, president of the priesthood from 2002 to 2007, is thought to have more than 50 children and at least 40 wives. When his father, Rulon Jeffs, died in 2002, he left behind an estimated 75 widows and 65 children.
    http://www.slate.com/id/2189181/
    Last edited by CW; 04-25-2008 at 07:40 PM. Reason: Due to large font members have been asked time and time again NOT to use large fonts.

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    I heard when Warren Jeffs was arrested he was found in a Cadillac Escalade SUV eating a McDonals meal.. I wonder if his ''people'' knew this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mygirlsadie View Post
    I heard when Warren Jeffs was arrested he was found in a Cadillac Escalade SUV eating a McDonals meal.. I wonder if his ''people'' knew this?
    Here's a link to an article on Warren Jeffs arrest:
    http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=455038


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    Warren Jeffs
    Pages 216, 223, 231, and 234: As Rulon's deputy, Jeffs banned the color red;
    (above from FlowerChild's excerpts of Carolyn Jessop's book).

    The red Cadillac Escalade he was found in contained the trappings of a fugitive life, a well-heeled fugitive.
    (from above link to information about his capture).

    This just made me snicker this morning.

    And as a part-time artist I wonder, how does one go about banning a color???

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    Good God!! He sure wasn't living the ''prarie life'' now was he? I wonder what the Ipods were for? Big faker...





    Quote Originally Posted by Leila View Post
    Here's a link to an article on Warren Jeffs arrest:
    http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=455038

  13. #13
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    This is Kathy Jo Nicholson blog, she grew up with many of the women at Eldorado and attended school at Alta Academy.

    http://outofpolygamy.wordpress.com/

    I’ve spent some time looking back over old Alta Academy year books. Most of the women from YFZ that you see in the media attended or taught at Alta. Warren Jeffs at that time was the headmaster of the school. Some of the women became his wives. I see their faces in the yearbooks and I ask myself, “What would they be like today if they had the same opportunity to be removed that the YFZ children now have?

    Many people comment on how emotionless the women appear. This occurs over a lifetime of sacrificing your feelings for the sake of “the Work” or “the Principle”. Warren Jeffs used to come up behind me, grab me by the scruff of my neck and give it a very tight squeeze. “Are you keeping sweet?” He’d ask in a low voice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlowerChild View Post
    Replying to SuzieQ in the last thread....

    I realize there are some very distinct differences in the mainstream LDS faith and the splinter FLDS "Faith" - but I did want to point out that the premises Warren Jeffs is "selling" to his flock are based in the Book of Mormon and the history of the faith - starting with Joseph Smith and his many wives. Brigham Young may have been the one to WRITE the "Polygamy doctrine" (or reveal the revelation), but it was Joseph Smith who DID IT FIRST - and declared plural celestial marriage a requirement for becoming "Gods and Goddesses" in the afterlife...much to the dismay of his 1st (and only legal) wife. Warren Jeffs has used these early writings to fortify his position that Mainstream Mormons are the ones who have it all wrong and they (the FLDS) are the TRUE faithful - and the ONLY ones who will be going to heaven - because the LDS Church has supposedly turned it's back on the REAL TRUTH as revealed to Joseph Smith and his "apostles". Jeff's words are, like the best "cons and lies", built on a base of truth - giving his teachings that essential aura of respectability and legitimacy. And you know, I think at some point he got drunk on the power - pretty heady stuff for a nerdy, wimpy, unattractive little man... more and more power (and adoration, and yes "worship") made him believe his own BS... in his words, LDS members are referred to as "gentiles" by the FLDS - along with the rest of us...who are also "infidels". It's like Warren really thinks he is creating a new Israel with the FLDS - and maybe he has begun to think himself the modern "Jesus" - persecuted, imprisoned, punished (crucified in a way) by the heathens and the "beast" for his faith.....
    Excellent post, FlowerChild - I simply edited for space. Everything religious leaders sell is based on some religious work (Bible, Torah, BOM, etc...) and this does lead credence and legitimacy to some pretty outlandish behavior and contentions. Some of the most brutal religious leaders in the world offer their flock just enough to truth to be dangerous and this small sliver of truth literally has the power to lead people into twisted and perverse systems of faith.

    I also agree the maxim that "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely" sums up Jeffs to a tee.

  15. #15
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    FlowerChild, I agree with everything about Prophets. Prophets are a scary concept IMO. We'll have to agree to disagree about the Polygamy doctrine though. There is too much evidence to prove that Joseph Smith was not a polygamist nor had a polygamy revelation. If he was a polygamist, then why did he not father any children with his supposed plural wives? Because they were married to the same men Joseph Smith was trying to expel from the church at the time of his death for practicing polygamy. The way they fired back was to claim that Joseph also practiced polygamy. How dare Joseph try to expel them for polygamy when he was one himself. One of Joseph's accusers was Brigham Young. When asked who Josephs wives were, the accusers had their own wives say they were Josephs plural wives.

    Up until his death all of Joseph's speaches, the restoration of the gospel (Book of Mormon), published papers and the way he lived, spoke against polygamy. However after his death, the supposed revelations were revealed and entered into Doctrine and Covenants and his supposed wives had themselves sealed to him in (1850?). How convenient when a dead man can't dispute or defend himself.

    From your post above:
    FLDS Beliefs
    Page 17: The FLDS split from the Mormon Church more than 100 years ago, after the latter outlawed polygamy. Members, like the 19th century Mormons, believe that "[a] man must have multiple wives if he expects to do well in heaven, where he can eventually become a god and wind up with his own planet." Not every man marries multiple wives; being encouraged to take more than three signifies that you're considered important by the leaders of the community.
    ******
    Those are the beliefs of the men that Joseph Smith was trying to expel from the church for practicing polygamy. Other than "someone said so", there is no proof that that revelation came from Joseph Smith. The FLDS can claim they are Mormons all they want, but it does not make it so.

    IMO a better comparison to the FLDS, especially Jeffs, is not the LDS church and the Book of Mormon, but rather Brigham Young himself. He did not practice the true Book of Mormon, but rather changed and amended the later books to justify his own criminal actions. Also IMO, Brigham Young is an unfortunate chapter of the LDS church history. I've been asking around about Brigham Young and I've been told that he simply is not discussed and not part of any teachings.

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