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  1. #1
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    Did Texas CPS do wrong?

    There is thought Texas CPS overstepped the mark by removing over 400 children from the Eldorado compound. this is not my belief, but i sincerely do have respect for those who present the case against the raid and removal of the children.

    i wonder if this thread could be dedicated to discussion of thoughts on this?

    i am the first to jump up and down about breaches of civil liberties, however i feel those children needed removing from the influence of Warren Jeffs, amongst others.

  2. #2
    Blue_Dolphin308's Avatar
    Blue_Dolphin308 is offline We can't help everyone, But everyone can help someone!
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    I believe CPS did right!

  3. #3
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    Quote taken 09:49 pm, 27, April, 2008, from thread #5

    Quote Originally Posted by FlowerChild View Post
    It began with CPS!
    They got a report of an ABUSED GIRL.
    They went to seek out the girl - in an armed, fenced, guarded RANCH...
    Because of WACO, they did not go alone, they took LE support - so the FLDS DIDN'T SHOOT the CPS Workers.
    They took CONTROL of the PROPERTY to protect EVERYONE. Not just the "outsiders" - but also the members themselves. Waco and Jim Jones taught us that some "leaders" have no problem murdering/martyring THEIR OWN to evade capture or prison or make a "point" or protest. CPS had no idea whether the FLDS would KILL THEIR OWN KIDS before allowing them to talk to a CPS Worker. WOULD THAT HAVE BEEN OK??? Would 200 dead BABIES and 40 dead 14 year old mothers have been BETTER???

    Puhleeze - they went in PEACEFULLY and they took out the women and children PEACEFULLY! No on had even a hair harmed. This wasn't a HOUSE - this was a REMOTE, FORTIFIED COMPOUND - a private, off the grid, self contained TOWN with 600+ PEOPLE IN IT.

    THEY HAD REASON TO INVESTIGATE - and the LAW TODAY permitted them to use LE and security forces to expedite that investigation. Think domestic "terrorism". If you don't like the "New Order" of things SINCE 9-11 then talk to the current Govt about CIVIL RIGHTS. They did NOTHING WRONG at YFZ - in fact - they did much LESS than the US/LE/Govt has done to other people and groups that have come into question. If this was a MUSLIM Compound instead of FLDS betcha not ONE "Religious Rights" person would be here posting about the loss of their "rights" and civil liberties and begging for thier kids to be returned and for them to be left alone.

    Our prejudices are showing a little me thinks...like red petticoats in a sea of pastels.....

    My Opinion
    I couldn't agree with you more, Flower Child!

  4. #4
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    I think only time will tell if CPS made the correct call. This case is sure to push our legal boundaries in many arenas and this will be one of them.

    I don't have enough information to form an opinion as to whether or not the warrants were valid; the intial child abuse report was an elaborate hoax (and if so, whose hoax?); proper protocol and/or procedure were followed, etc...etc....

    CPS says all was done as it should be. Attorneys for the FLDS say grave miscalculations amd assumptions were made. Writings and timelines from the FLDS woman and children paint a picture of unfairness and rights being trampled on. Surprise, surprise - every side has an opinion and we watchers from the stands will either pick one that suits us and run with it or wait until more information develops.

    I choose the latter course.

    I personally cannot decide which is worse - being in a compound with the FLDS and their many problems or having your sheltered life ripped asunder and being thrown into modern world foster care. Honestly, I wish the choices were better.

    I'm not prepared to say that CPS did wrong and neither am I able to accept that they did right. Regardless or right or wrong, I think our country needs to stand up and take full notice and attention when an entire religious compund is dismantled by a state or federal agency.

  5. #5
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    This would have made a good poll.

  6. #6
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    Blue_Dolphin308 is offline We can't help everyone, But everyone can help someone!
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    Reposted here from 5

    I respectfully disagree. This began with a call to CPS. The whole Jeffs, was dealt with. I don't think it had any bearing on what happened here.

    Theyse people were breaking the laws. They were practicing polygamy, they were raping children, they were participating in fraud. They were abusing there kids. They were WATERBOARDING there babies.

    If we allow them to get away with it, then what is next???

    My husband put it into simple terms..

    If he created a religious group called the "only rights" and one of there religious practice is to take out (kill) anyone that does not meet Gods criteria, is that right? So they take out anyone that practices adultry, drugs, etc. And they can't be prosecuted because it is a religion?

    When do we draw the line on religion and state??

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by golfmom View Post
    This would have made a good poll.
    You could do a poll! go ahead. i'll vote. i know a poll can't be added to this thread now, but a separate poll/thread surely you could make?

  8. #8
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    The people on our earth have taken on a new direction to tilt and wobble.

    We allow abortion, killing of unborn babies for economic dollars $$$ its a job.

    We look the other way when folks use surrogate mothers to carry the sperm of another non family member male and bring forth a child, to be loved and cared for by NEW father. A paid for service. $$$

    We let business thrive when we let men donate their sperm to a sperm bank. Another paid for service. $$$

    Happy that no shots were fired. Their buildings are still standing. The children have been ripped from the only family they have known. So many children, so many moms, and when the DNA shows up, will there be one daddy, or maybe two?

    The big question would seem to be, is 400 children born from one daddy too many or not enough? Would anyone have ever known about this group, IF someone had not made 'the' call?

    Do we all remember the physician of some years ago, that officially, impregnated his female patients with his own sperm? Female patients that were having difficulty in conceiving and having a child. His number count as I recall was 50 children.

    The law so far seems rather loose in determining the exact method of reproduction and how much should be paid for it, or if it should be free, or just an 'in house' determination.

    Sad, any way you look at it. Crazy is another word that comes to my mind. Personally I have not read anything in the bible about this type of arrangement being good or an accepted practice. Keep in mind I have not read the entire bible yet.

    .
    Opinions expressed by me, are mine, based on life experience, and known facts of any given case.





    """I am just a pixel in the universal plan."""

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Camper View Post
    Would anyone have ever known about this group, IF someone had not made 'the' call?
    .
    I have known about this group for 11 years and have been following the development of the Eldorado Compound since the beginning.

    You do make very interesting points about the law and reproduction.

  10. #10
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    I believe that CPS was right. First, they received a call of child abuse. Yes, it turns out that might have been a hoax. But you would probably be surprised about how many hoax calls CPS receives- and they all have to be investigated.

    Second, knowing the history of other closed societies, knowing that the gates were guarded, knowing that there were rumors of threats being made if anyone attempted to enter the compound- they took law enforcement with them to ensure a peaceful entry so they could investigate. In order to make sure they were not violating anyone's "religious rights" they got a search warrant, to allow their entry and a search of the property.

    Upon entering the compound I believe they did find abuse in the form of pregnant teens. I believe that as the investigation progresses they will also find other forms of abuse. And evidence of incest, abandonment as well as evidence of other crimes.

    I believe they had reason to remove the children to protect the ones known to have been abused (pregnant teens) and that they had to remove the others because of their being exposed to abuse as well as to a culture of "grooming" for future abuse. In that way, I believe that all the children were in danger, and I do believe that they will also find other abuses upon the younger children.

    While I understand why the mothers were allowed to go with the children, needing time to observe them and see if they were going to compliant with the abuse, to help sort out who was of age and who was only lying and saying they were of age. Still, it is not usual practice to allow the mothers to go with removed children.

    Yes, I agree that in order to accommodate the timeline, for court hearings they initial hearings had to be done in mass. But I do believe that future hearings should be done individually or at least by family groups (father and all wives)

    I also believe that any parent who is proven to have lied about their child's age name or paternity and who doesn't give DNA, should not be allowed to gain their child back. And if it is found that they committed or condoned the abuses that they should be prosecuted (including leaders and the women as well as any "husbands.")

    I also believe that if evidence of other crimes are found (incest, fraud, domestic violence, income tax fraud, tax evasion, polygamy etc.) that they should be prosecuted for those crimes.

    And yes, I feel that Texas CPS had no other choice but to investigate the complaint they recieved. I believe they are mandated by law to do so.


  11. #11
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    27 yrs ago someone called CPS on me. I was going thru a divorce & had 4 kids. CPS came to the door at 7 a.m. & wanted to see my kids & make sure they were ok/ the complaint stated my kids were left home alone. I was totally confused, my 2 teenagers were asleep & the 2 boys ( age 8 & 2 ) were with there Dad for the weekend. CPS had got 15 or more phone calls the night before, stating the kids were left home alone.

    I told the girlsl to dress quickly ( it was summer & they slept in as little as possible) & come downstairs. That CPS was wanting to make sure they were ok. You can about imagine the look on his (CPS) face when 2 teenagers came down a grumbling. He wanted to know where the other kids were at / like we were hiding them. So we asked him if he'd like to go upstairs & look around / he said he never had a search warrant. I assured him he never needed it / I had nothing to hide.

    We opened closet doors / took him to the basement / I offered him a cup of coffee or a soda / showed him my kitchen cabinets had food / opened my deep freezer & said see its even filled with meat. He asked if he could come back & talk to my 2 boys. I told him you bet you can I have nothing to hide my boys are never left alone.

    He apologized several times & thanked me for being so nice. I passed with flying colors.....was I victimized you bet I was! The fact is I had NOTHING to hide. CPS was 100% correct in coming to make sure my kids were ok!

  12. #12
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    I think that the Texas Department of Health and Human Services Child Protection Services acted exactly as they should have. Kudos to them, and all law enforcement agencies involved for their actions.

    Now let's see where the investigation takes the case. I hope and pray that at least some of those children can be healed from the scars caused by living within the confines of a harmful cult that disgracefully masquerades as a religious sect.

    Lion

  13. #13
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    I still question whether in fact they really are a "religious" group. The "trappings" of a religion, the doctrine, etc to me are a veneer, a cover for what really is going on. These grown men, the leaders, who have had access to the outside world KNOW that the abuse, the sexual conduct with minors and the subjugation of women is illegal and morally wrong. But they don't care. They act as if they're above the laws that the rest of us follow. They act as if they're "better or superior" to the rest of us. Last time I looked it didn't matter whether you were FLDS or not, jail time and jail food is the same for either.

    CPS followed their mandate. They had to investigate and once they did and allegedly found evidence of abuse, then they had no choice but to get a search warrant and remove the children.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by cheko1 View Post
    27 yrs ago someone called CPS on me. I was going thru a divorce & had 4 kids. CPS came to the door at 7 a.m. & wanted to see my kids & make sure they were ok/ the complaint stated my kids were left home alone. I was totally confused, my 2 teenagers were asleep & the 2 boys ( age 8 & 2 ) were with there Dad for the weekend. CPS had got 15 or more phone calls the night before, stating the kids were left home alone.

    I told the girlsl to dress quickly ( it was summer & they slept in as little as possible) & come downstairs. That CPS was wanting to make sure they were ok. You can about imagine the look on his (CPS) face when 2 teenagers came down a grumbling. He wanted to know where the other kids were at / like we were hiding them. So we asked him if he'd like to go upstairs & look around / he said he never had a search warrant. I assured him he never needed it / I had nothing to hide.

    We opened closet doors / took him to the basement / I offered him a cup of coffee or a soda / showed him my kitchen cabinets had food / opened my deep freezer & said see its even filled with meat. He asked if he could come back & talk to my 2 boys. I told him you bet you can I have nothing to hide my boys are never left alone.

    If you had had a pregnant girl under the age of consent and her "spiritual husband" in your home, do you think CPS would have acted?

    He apologized several times & thanked me for being so nice. I passed with flying colors.....was I victimized you bet I was! The fact is I had NOTHING to hide. CPS was 100% correct in coming to make sure my kids were ok!
    So wouldn't you call this a hoax call? CPS gets hoax calls. But irregardless, they do have to investigate. Just like they did in your situation. What do you think would have happened if you had passed the being present, having food and etc., but had had a pregnant girl under the age of consent and her "spiritual husband" in your home, what do you think would have happened?

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by mysteriew View Post
    So wouldn't you call this a hoax call? CPS gets hoax calls. But irregardless, they do have to investigate. Just like they did in this situation.
    Yes, I'd term it a hoax call.. I applaud how Cheko1 handled it.

    When I was 22 and my child was almost a year old I had someone call CPS on me too. As soon as the CPS worker began asking me questions I knew who'd done it and I asked. The woman said that they couldn't tell who made the call. So I told her who it was and why. I had just moved from a rental residence because of unwanted advances by the caretaker who's wife owned the property. I'd moved next door into a home with married friends of mine, temporarily because in three weeks I'd be going back to work and moving to another state. It just so happens that his stepdaughter was there with me and told the CPS worker that she'd witnessed his overtures and my reaction. What's more she'd been present when he'd made a secretive call that morning and now she knew who it'd been to.

    The CPS worker was very nice but professional and explained that they had to check out each and every report and she was relieved to find that there was no basis for the call, my child was healthy, safe and she left. It was a hoax and the hoaxster paid. The stepdaughter told her mother and that was the end of that. Yes, it rankles me to this date that he made the call, it was embarassing, but I understand that she was doing her job and that her job was checking the safety of the child involved, my child.

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