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  1. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by golfmom View Post
    As per their rating formula: a 5 "is reasonable and consistent with normal expectations of proficiency"

    What I find interesting is that you jumped to a ton of conclusions on this case without even a mediocre investigation of the facts.
    That rating was in January. Appears a lot of stuff went down in the following couple of months. 5 out of 10 isn't exactly the most ideal employee. Funny you accuse me of jumping to conclusions. I'm just putting out what ifs. Just because I don't immediately jump on the Brenda Bandwagon? Where have I once impugned her character? I never said anything as fact that she was lying, only brought up the possibility. That's in contrast to all the hatred directed at Judi Hill, by people who don't even know her or Ms Biesterfeld for that matter.


  2. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by golfmom View Post
    http://www.visaliatimesdelta.com/app...ws01/803140331

    The March 6 letter from Lewis said the county's probationary employees can be terminated at any time if they don't perform at a level "necessary for fully satisfactory performance in the employee's position." However, Lindsay City Councilwoman Suzi Picaso said that six weeks before Biesterfeld's firing, an assistant of Lewis told her Biesterfeld was doing a great job.
    Oh, in that case: case closed! An assistant said she was doing a great job. You got me there.

    Who the hell is the assistant and was she friendly with Biesterfeld? Do YOU know this assistant personally?


  3. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by RWill1974 View Post
    That rating was in January. Appears a lot of stuff went down in the following couple of months. 5 out of 10 isn't exactly the most ideal employee. Funny you accuse me of jumping to conclusions. I'm just putting out what ifs. Just because I don't immediately jump on the Brenda Bandwagon? Where have I once impugned her character? I never said anything as fact that she was lying, only brought up the possibility. That's in contrast to all the hatred directed at Judi Hill, by people who don't even know her or Ms Biesterfeld for that matter.
    No, I went to the trouble yesterday to research the hell out of the story ... providing links of her before and after evaluations as well as tons of different media sources and articles. I also provided information on the secret "drop file" as well as provided links to the specific description of what she said she saw. You jumped right in saying that the only source was a right wing agenda based media and that there's lots of different reasons to have naked boys on your computer.

    I don't hate Judi, or like Brenda, I researched the story. You jumped in without reading the thread or researching the story.


  4. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by RWill1974 View Post
    Oh, in that case: case closed! An assistant said she was doing a great job. You got me there.

    Who the hell is the assistant and was she friendly with Biesterfeld? Do YOU know this assistant personally?
    That's just one link of at least a dozen that I've posted on this story.


  5. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by golfmom View Post
    No, I went to the trouble yesterday to research the hell out of the story ... providing links of her before and after evaluations as well as tons of different media sources and articles. I also provided information on the secret "drop file" as well as provided links to the specific description of what she said she saw. You jumped right in saying that the only source was a right wing agenda based media and that there's lots of different reasons to have naked boys on your computer.

    I don't hate Judi, or like Brenda, I researched the story. You jumped in without reading the thread or researching the story.
    The initial link to the story was World Net Daily. That's how I got involved in the story, yes. But I also read all the other sources as well. The Drop File still doesn't prove anything.


  6. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by RWill1974 View Post
    The initial link to the story was World Net Daily. That's how I got involved in the story, yes. But I also read all the other sources as well. The Drop File still doesn't prove anything.
    So, you read one post that linked WND and assumed that was the ONLY paper reporting the story and didn't bother to research it yourself.

    Yes, I'm well aware of your logic, photos of naked boys may not be porn either.

    Anyway . . . I worked in HR for a long time and know how this works:

    The Drop File is stuffed primarily with items from after her termination, including copies of the news reports. It also includes a scathing write up on what a crappy employee she is written, not the day before she was fired, not the week before she was fired, but after she was handed her pink slip. Up until she pissed off Judi, by reporting this matter to the police and losing the computer to a criminal investigation, she was a solid employee. They worked double time trying to prove that her termination had nothing to do with her reporting the child porn. And, for good reason ... it's going to cost county tax payers a bundle.


  7. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by ****** View Post

    a) Did Brenda tell Judi that Crisler was looking at CHILD or REGULAR porn?

    This is my sticking point, I'm not 100% convinced that Brenda conveyed to Judi that it was in fact child porn. If she was at all hesitant in her language or reporting, I can see how Judi wanted it handled by the library. Viewing porn is not illegal.


  8. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by ****** View Post
    Yeah, I know it's not illegal. But in the LIBRARY? That's just wrong. Even if it's adults looking at adults, go home. If you can't afford a computer at home you should be working anyway, not looking for ways to watch porn.
    Yeah ... pretty slimy. And, although that would excuse Judi's statement to NOT report it to the police, it doesn't excuse her termination of Brenda. What's conspicuously absent from the "Drop File" is any documentation that would indicate Brenda was going to be let go before her probationary period was up.


  9. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by RWill1974 View Post
    I wholeheartedly agree. Anyone who turns a blind eye to that garbage is a poor excuse for a human being.

    Now if I was this Hill lady and I did, in fact, not know that he was looking at child porn, then come in and find one of my computers missing and then an employee says I gotta call someone regarding all this, I'd be royally pissed. That is if Hill's side of the story is true. As a library patron I'd be pissed if some dumbass mishelved all the books like the library asserts Ms. Biesterfeld did.
    I guess I am missing why she would be pissed???
    I would hope that my employees ..if I was not there would not turn a blind eye either... I would want them to handle the situation in my absence.
    Although I do appreciate your debating the topic

    "Amraann - I was not trying to imply that smoking marijuana was harmful per se. I was using the analogy that, as everyone has heard a million time, "smoking pot leads to using hard drugs." I think everyone also knows that this is not necessarily true and can think of examples where it does not apply. However, it does appear to be true in SOME cases. Similarily - I think (my opinion) viewing child porn can lead to a desire to act it out. NOT with everyone, but in some cases. Better to act on the side of caution and report such activity, then risk further harm to a child. Because this sort of thing can ruin a person's life, it can be a difficult call to make. However, he can move and start a new life somewhere else. A child harmed is a child harmed forever, no matter where they move to. So my whole point was "report it" and let the courts determine the guilt of the perp. Don't take a chance.

    Salem"

    I get what your saying I just meant that even viewing child porn is harmful to those children abused into posing for it.
    Simply viewing child porn is one of the few sexual things that is harmful to others..
    I mean most things are between consenting adults.. but being a pedophile is harmful without ever having sexual contact.


  10. #135
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    hmmmmm you're right under a normal probationary situation, that an employee is "at will" and can be terminated at any time for any reason, or no reason at all.

    The problem, for them, it now looks like a lot of last minute posturing trying to prove that they had cause to fire her. Legally they didn't need cause to fire her, but now they have two big problems with her termination:

    1. Public opinion
    2. Whistle blower

    They'd be wise to offer her a financial settlement and let it go ... fighting this out in court is going to do nothing but make them look worse and cost them way more money in the long run.


  11. #136
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    This is an interesting article and gives lots of employment information. You don't schedule an employee for additional training that you're planning on terminating.

    http://www.thesungazette.com/article...ews/news01.txt
    .....
    One of the documents is a three-month performance evaluation of Biesterfeld dated January 15, 2008. In the evaluation, Biesterfeld's supervisor, Judith Hill, wrote that Biesterfeld “steadily increasing [her] skills” and “greet[ed] all customers in a friendly manner.” It goes on to say that, “customers of Lindsay branch enjoy your friendliness” and even went so far as to direct Biesterfeld to “go over the move and floor plan” of the new Lindsay Library and mentioned additional training in March.

    On Feb. 21, Biesterfeld was visited by the entire management of the Tulare County library system, all of whom reiterated that Biesterfeld would very soon assume responsibilities for this brand new facility. A few days after that visit, Biesterfeld was asked what color bookends she wished for the new facility. Biesterfeld was previously employed by the Tulare County Library as a library assistant from 1984 to 1987, when she moved out of the area.
    ....


    The website also included a document signed by Biesterfeld stating that she read and accepted the terms of probationary period whereas she could be “rejected from probation Š and may not appeal the rejection .. and will not be told reasons for such rejection.” The county's attorney, Michael Woods, contends that this alone is enough to fire her on grounds of policy.


  12. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by RWill1974 View Post
    As a library patron I'd be pissed if some dumbass mishelved all the books like the library asserts Ms. Biesterfeld did.
    I previously mentioned in this thread that i think she may well have been let go for legitimate reasons. She had a 5 out of 10 on her review. That isn't a star employee by any means. There was also a file created to track the instances where she had to be corrected, including many of the things in her 3 month evaluation. I mentioned before that we had an employee that we had to keep a file on so we could justify letting her go at the end of her 6 months, just before the probation period ended. We gave her till then to get her act together. To comment on the above quote, one of the most irritating things she would do is just file (medical records0 to get things off of the filing shelves. She would sometimes be so careless that she would file all of the records wrong. It was infuriating and embarassing when patients would come in to be seen and we couldn't find their records.

    So going back to the 3 points that ****** brought up. I think she was fired legally and would likely have been fired even if this incident didn't occur. Second, i think that it is a shame that the librarian looks at the porn issue so lightly. Third, I think this lady did the right thing calling the cops.

    Following up on those thoughts, I do not know that i wholely believe either side of the story. i have seen the letter justifying the termination saying that when asked who the cop was she said Ms. Biesterfield gave a name without mentioning that he was a cop. I think there is a lot of finger pointing and bitterness. I also don't agree with ms. Biesterfield on several things perhaps including the comment where she says she told the librarian that it was child porn. i think the difference there came out afterwards when it was pointed out that child porn is illegal and other porn isn't. This really is a she said/ she said fight. i think the relevant part is that the perv was arrested. i think that the library system needs to set standard policies and procedures,


  13. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by ****** View Post
    Most whislte blower statutes I'm aware of protect the employee who reports illegal activity by the employer - doesn't really fit here, especially with the probationary period.

    I think the real fallout - and this is what I hope for - will be the exposure of the library association's policy that sanctions the protection of child porn by wrapping it up in the 1st amendment, followed by a change in that policy and the ousting of those who promulgated it. Not all expression is covered by the 1st amendment, nor should it be.
    But that's the heart of the problem. IF her employer had a policy to NOT report child pornography, that is an illegal activity and she'd be protected as a whistleblower. Proving that is gonna be a tough nut though.

    Interesting case, there's just lots of bits to ponder.


  14. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by RainbowsAndGumdrops View Post
    I mentioned before that we had an employee that we had to keep a file on so we could justify letting her go at the end of her 6 months, just before the probation period ended. We gave her till then to get her act together.
    R&G, I've seen and worked on a number of those types of files myself. One thing that really bothered me is that this file was created AFTER her termination. If they were documenting to terminate her employment, it would have been done all along ... not created after she was let go. Also, why would they have scheduled additional training for her beyond her probationary date if they didn't intend to keep her? Something just isn't added up on this termination and I think it was in retaliation for reporting the situation to the police.


  15. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amraann View Post
    LOLOL Ok Agreed but typically they are appointed a pubic defender who has little choice put to take the case. (meaning they may defend them legally but certainly not emotionally or morally)

    I was referring to anyone else defending a clearly caught child porn viewer.


  16. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by ****** View Post
    Ah, the good old four term fallacy:

    All rivers have banks
    All banks have money
    Therefore all rivers have money

    I believe Amraann was using "defend" to mean "advocate and advance the practice of" rather than "provide legal counsel". Two concepts expressed by a single word.
    Sure, pick on me after I leave the thread you big !


  17. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by ****** View Post
    Yeah, I know it's not illegal. But in the LIBRARY? That's just wrong. Even if it's adults looking at adults, go home. If you can't afford a computer at home you should be working anyway, not looking for ways to watch porn.
    Hey - I thought joblessness and looking at porn went hand in hand....I mean I just quit my job and everything so don't bust my bubble.


  18. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by ****** View Post
    Are you at the library?
    They tore up my card years ago.


  19. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Floh View Post
    Dear Judi Hill,

    Your name is now mud and you should probably resign before you're fired.

    Thank you for your attention and have a nice day.
    Not just fired - she should be charged for conspiracy to provide child porn or some such, and a federal charge at that.

    I swear, just when you think you have heard it all, you can log on to Web Sleuths and be amazed and sickened all over again.


  20. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by ****** View Post
    I had them surgically removed when I was in college.
    Ouch - was it painful or could you tell?:


  21. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by RainbowsAndGumdrops View Post
    Thank you Taximom. That is the other point that i wanted to make, but I seem to have glossed over. I think that the library (and perhaps libraries in general) have to look at how they handle this situation. I'd imagine that this is a difficult challenge for them to deal with and warnings and kicking people out of the library is the easy thing to do. It is hard to turn someone in to the police when they know who you are and where you work. The libraries also don't want to be swarmed by police and be known for that. However, when the library tries to preserve it's image as a place for free learning, they probably let a lot go that should be reported and is illegal. Perhaps an anamous tip system with the police could be worked out along with a standard protocal. I think this is a big issue throughout the US that should be dealt with.
    I understand your point, but I disagree. I don't see how this is a "difficult challenge" at all. Yes, it is easy to kick someone out of the library - but for being loud, boisterous, destructive, whatever. But CHILD PORN?!? Its gross, its certainly not conducive to "free learning" and to top it off, its illegal. I don't think the library would be swarmed by LE. The librarian can call the police, kick out the offender and the LE can arrest him outside of the library. The offender wouldn't even have to know that it was the librarian that called, it could have been a patron of the library. I would hope that this case is the exception to the rule and that libraries do not "let alot go that should be reported and is illegal". But this is all just MHO.
    Last edited by BeavisMom62; 05-03-2008 at 01:18 PM. Reason: misspelling


  22. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by ****** View Post
    Glad to see you've got none of the bias you allege motivates others involved in this issue.


  23. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amraann View Post
    ANYONE who advocates child porn needs to just die.
    And if her relatives are here then I certainly HOPE they have the good sense to disown her and report her to Authorities..

    IMO anyone aware if child porn and does nothing is as guilty as the one looking or taking the pictures.
    The idea that someone just sent this guy a attachment of child porn is absolutely ridiculous!!!
    Sicko's into to that type of thing stick together they do not go out and solicit others.
    They do not send emails en mass to strangers.. That would make them to easy to catch and they know it.
    What side of her story do I need to know??
    She knew this PIG was looking at child porn and she wanted to not report him???
    Even her own employee, who was there, disagreed!!! I may not know her but her employee does and she was there and saw it and felt the need to call the police.
    They fired her for reporting a clearly illegal activity?!?!?!
    If more people where like her rather then her idiot boss the world would be a safer place ..
    And I would rather my taxes pay some crack whore food stamps then see them fund some sicko looking at child porn on my tax dollars.
    There is simply NO defense that makes it OK in any situation to sit back and let someone look at child porn.. NONE!
    If you do not do something to stop it then your as bad as the pedophile.

    BTW if your or someone else here were related to this moron I hope that you disown her and fight to take her children away! Barring that you had better start collecting the bail money .. because the only people that defend pedophiles are pedophiles themselves.
    Bravo, Amraann!


  24. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by golfmom View Post
    http://www.visaliatimesdelta.com/app...ws01/803140331

    The March 6 letter from Lewis said the county's probationary employees can be terminated at any time if they don't perform at a level "necessary for fully satisfactory performance in the employee's position." However, Lindsay City Councilwoman Suzi Picaso said that six weeks before Biesterfeld's firing, an assistant of Lewis told her Biesterfeld was doing a great job.
    Exactly! Reading her performance evaluation AFTER the fact, they make it seem as if she could barely tie her shoes in the morning. If her performance was so bad, IMO they SHOULD have fired her based upon her performance long before this incident. But obviously, her performance wasn't considered to be that bad (remember 5/10) until AFTER she reported the perv.


  25. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by ****** View Post

    a) Did Brenda tell Judi that Crisler was looking at CHILD or REGULAR porn?
    This is what I keep coming back to. I think there could have been some miscommunication here, and Judi believed it was regular adult porn and not child porn. Remember, she was apparently off-site and didn't see it for herself. Why else would Judi just say to give him a warning and that "this happens more often than you would think"?

    Of course, if this is true, once they found out there was a misunderstanding and that the guy got busted for child porn, I would think Brenda's superiors would show some lenience in regard to her defying orders, and not be so hasty to fire her.


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