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Thread: What Is Your Theory?

  1. #101
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    Hello All,

    I'm not sure what's going on either, but it's clear to me it is something that goes beyond young men being intoxicated and inexplicably going into a body of water. It seems these cases are primarily in the midwest, northerly states (PA/NY) and Canada. There are obviously plenty of bodies of water in other areas adjacent to plenty of colleges and bars and yet one does not see such a frequency of "accidental drownings" -- certainly there are plenty of colleges in FL, TX and other coastal states where this does not occur on a regular basis.

    How this can be missed by even the most ardent "it's the alcohol stupid" theorists is strange to me. I have no stake in any particular theory, I just know something is amiss when I see it.

    After all, how does one explain what happened to Chris Jenkins. In my mind his case illustrates that alcohol alone cannot be the culprit in all of these cases. There are extremes in thought on both sides of the spectrum and in between lies the truth.

    I'm glad this forum is here so that we can express our thoughts without risking unnecessary sarcasm and unbridled anger. The quote that comes to mind is:
    The obscure we see eventually. The completely obvious, it seems, takes longer.
    ( Edward R. Murrow)

    Though I know there are some who believe the "obvious" is simply college kids drinking and then somehow stumbling into a river, there are just as many who sense something nefarious is happening. I never depend on the police to unravel these kinds of complex cases. They are too busy just handling their day to day work. Only a tiny fraction of detectives possess the energy, intellect, diligence, intuition, education, training, resolve and drive to tackle that which is so out of the ordinary.

    Meanwhile, I'm deeply troubled that these "accidental drownings" continue to occur at such an alarming rate, in spite of police and community efforts to prevent them. Kudos to all who have devoted themselves to looking for patterns and missing pieces to these incidences. My own two cents is that some sort of sedating drug may have been put into some of the drinks by predators. I never knew how many perpetrators there are who enjoy sexually assaulting and murdering young men.

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  3. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePhantom View Post
    Hello All,

    I'm not sure what's going on either, but it's clear to me it is something that goes beyond young men being intoxicated and inexplicably going into a body of water. It seems these cases are primarily in the midwest, northerly states (PA/NY) and Canada. There are obviously plenty of bodies of water in other areas adjacent to plenty of colleges and bars and yet one does not see such a frequency of "accidental drownings" -- certainly there are plenty of colleges in FL, TX and other coastal states where this does not occur on a regular basis.

    How this can be missed by even the most ardent "it's the alcohol stupid" theorists is strange to me. I have no stake in any particular theory, I just know something is amiss when I see it
    .

    After all, how does one explain what happened to Chris Jenkins. In my mind his case illustrates that alcohol alone cannot be the culprit in all of these cases. There are extremes in thought on both sides of the spectrum and in between lies the truth.

    I'm glad this forum is here so that we can express our thoughts without risking unnecessary sarcasm and unbridled anger. The quote that comes to mind is:
    The obscure we see eventually. The completely obvious, it seems, takes longer.
    ( Edward R. Murrow)

    Though I know there are some who believe the "obvious" is simply college kids drinking and then somehow stumbling into a river, there are just as many who sense something nefarious is happening. I never depend on the police to unravel these kinds of complex cases. They are too busy just handling their day to day work. Only a tiny fraction of detectives possess the energy, intellect, diligence, intuition, education, training, resolve and drive to tackle that which is so out of the ordinary.

    Meanwhile, I'm deeply troubled that these "accidental drownings" continue to occur at such an alarming rate, in spite of police and community efforts to prevent them. Kudos to all who have devoted themselves to looking for patterns and missing pieces to these incidences. My own two cents is that some sort of sedating drug may have been put into some of the drinks by predators. I never knew how many perpetrators there are who enjoy sexually assaulting and murdering young men.
    This is a great post-Thank you-I really like the bolded part-I also find it very suspect that NO young women have met the same fate as all these men have.This is why I think all of this cases are connected!!!

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  5. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogrannypop View Post
    Personally I think it is just an unfortunate coincidence. I live in a town with 3 major colleges and a couple more near by. Think of how many college students there are at any given time in the USA. This is an unfortunate small portion. A lot of them drink. Just because they are athletes or scholars doesn't exclude them from partying.

    I am heartbroken about anyone losing a child. My son went to college here. I always warned, no lectured them, not to go near the river if they were drinking. Because kids do.

    I believe that there is so much in the media and online that most kids are aware of this. Some are going after the fact to draw the smilies.

    Keep in mind if you look at a map, these occur in places where there are large and/or numerous bodies of water.

    College kids go to bars, get intoxicated and, being unfamiliar to the area or disoriented, stumble into the river.

    Lack of water in the lungs could be due to hypothermia before death.

    I am just so sorry this happens. I wish we could hold them close until they are grown and safe.

    Bless our children.

    I am sorry but I have to disagree with this. I have lived in Eau Claire WI my whole life and there are few facts people don't realize. For one...one of young men who went missing here was a loco. He was to was born and raised here. And I am telling you ANYONE who is from Eau Claire knows not to swim in half moon winter or summer...it is a gross little lake no one really wants to be in. Not only that but from where Water street is and Half mood it's not very possible to just wonder into the lake. I mean just one block behind Water street is a river that none of these college kids are found it. Half moon is a little bit more of a ways from water st. Half moon would be ideal to throw a body in because there are tons of woods around it to hide out at and put the body in the water. There are also a few other factors I know of just from being from Eau Claire and I can tell you that it's not common for college men to go missing and be found in the lake or rivers. This all happen in to short of a time. And it is now 2013 and has not happen sense. I find that odd.

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  7. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePhantom View Post
    Hello All,

    I'm not sure what's going on either, but it's clear to me it is something that goes beyond young men being intoxicated and inexplicably going into a body of water. It seems these cases are primarily in the midwest, northerly states (PA/NY) and Canada. There are obviously plenty of bodies of water in other areas adjacent to plenty of colleges and bars and yet one does not see such a frequency of "accidental drownings" -- certainly there are plenty of colleges in FL, TX and other coastal states where this does not occur on a regular basis.
    At least some northern cases might be explained by hypothermia setting in sooner than in the warmer climates, and in case the body of water freezes in the winter people may decide to take a shortcut over the ice and then there is a weak spot in the ice somewhere and they may fall through. That's not going to happen in FL or other warm states.

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  9. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by SyraKelly View Post
    This is a great post-Thank you-I really like the bolded part-I also find it very suspect that NO young women have met the same fate as all these men have.This is why I think all of this cases are connected!!!
    Hello all, this is my first post here.

    I agree that it is very suspect that no young women have met the same fate. However, I also think that may be a convenience factor on the part of the killer(s). As a woman myself, safety has been ingrained in me. Most young women will not leave a bar alone, late at night, to walk home. We tend to travel in groups. We are also taught to watch out for someone who may slip something into our drink. Young men, for the most part, do not think of such things. They aren't afraid of being kidnapped and raped walking home alone, and they aren't watching out for someone spiking their drink. Additionally, I think that young men may be targeted because the persons responsible for these killings are aware of the fact that if young women were ending up in rivers and lakes, there would be a large scale investigation.

    I read earlier in this thread of the possibility that the men in the northern states may have headed towards the water to walk across the ice as a shortcut. I live in Minnesota. This may be true of lakes, but I can guarantee that no young man will try to cross a river (especially the Mississippi). Where there is moving water, there is thin ice, and the Mississippi only freezes sporadically. Even in the coldest of weather there may be a few patches of thin ice, but generally it s mostly open water.

    The case of Dan Zamlen is what really piqued my interest in this case. I regularly drive past the spot where he disappeared, and I find it absurd that he would have accidentally ended up in the river. To get to the river from that location he would have had to walk down an extremely steep hill, which is very wooded. It's a big hill, even if he fell down it a little bit, there's no way he could have fallen down the entire hill and into the water. He would have hit a tree within ten feet (at the most) of falling, most likely sooner. The only way he would have ended up at the bottom of the hill at the rivers edge is if he was taken down there, or if he was being chased and ran down in the hopes of alluding the person(s) chasing him. I can take a picture of this hill and post it here if anyone is interested in seeing what I'm talking about. You can't even see the river from the top of the hill because it's so wooded, and it's in a spot where there is no path down to the river.

    Dan was on the phone with a friend shortly before he disappeared. The police have never released exactly what was said in that phone call. I read something that said he was talking to a female friend and was possibly questioning his sexuality. Forgive me, but for the life of me I cannot remember where I read this. Regardless, I don't believe for one second that he decided to jump into a freezing cold river to commit suicide, especially when the friend he was speaking to was on her way to pick him up from where he was.

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  11. #106
    I live in Minneapolis just a few blocks from the river. I happened to be driving past the spot where Dan Zamlen disappeared, so I hopped out of my car and took a few pics. These pictures were taken at the corner of St. Clair and Mississippi River Blvd.

    The following pictures show how steep the hill leading down to the river is. In some you can see the river at the bottom, but they illustrate my point in my earlier post that there's no way he could have fallen all the way down this hill and into the river. The trees would have stopped him.









    This next picture looks across the river. I took it to demonstrate just how steep and wooded the bluff down to the river are. There's no way he fell into the river. He was either brought down there, or he ran down there because he was being chased.


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  13. #107
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    Danarskistein=those are great pics.Thank you for sharing them.I agree from the looks of those trees,he would have hit one if he fell.I am also thinking,if he was drinking,I still don't think he could have even ran down there to try and get away from someone.I am guessing it would have been dark & he would not have known where he was going.I believe someone carried him down there & put him in the water.I have always thought the killer did his homework before killing the boys,meaning he scouted out where the rivers,lakes where & knew where to go & leave the body.
    I am so glad the federal gov't is getting involved with it now.Maybe the boys & their families will get justice someday.
    There were a few other boys on their cells to when they went missing.One was screaming to a friend-help me,then the line went dead.the videos of some of the guys were very haunting as I think they look like they were drugged.
    I look forward to posting with you about this case-Welcome to WS!!

  14. #108
    It does seem more logical that he was carried down to the water. I think he must have been put in a vehicle when he was taken because he had a friend on the way there to pick him up.

    Since he was found in the ford dam just a couple miles downstream from where he disappeared, my guess is that he went ingo the water somewhere in the vicinity of where he disappeared. About a mile or so down the road there is a park down by the river. You can actually drive your car down there. If I were to guess as to where he went into the water, that would be my choice. It's secluded, and one would have to make a lot of noise to be heard. I do think they use a metal gate to prevent cars from driving down there at night, but John locks on them aren't strong- a bolt cutter would do the trick. There's also always the possibility that someone forgot tool I it that night.

    I've always wondered how no one heard anything. There are high end homes lining the river. I've driven down that road min the middle of the night and its so quiet that its eery. Any little disturbance could have easily been overheard. Then again, it was so early in the spring that no one would have had their windows open yet.

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  16. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Danarskistein View Post
    It does seem more logical that he was carried down to the water. I think he must have been put in a vehicle when he was taken because he had a friend on the way there to pick him up.

    Since he was found in the ford dam just a couple miles downstream from where he disappeared, my guess is that he went ingo the water somewhere in the vicinity of where he disappeared. About a mile or so down the road there is a park down by the river. You can actually drive your car down there. If I were to guess as to where he went into the water, that would be my choice. It's secluded, and one would have to make a lot of noise to be heard. I do think they use a metal gate to prevent cars from driving down there at night, but John locks on them aren't strong- a bolt cutter would do the trick. There's also always the possibility that someone forgot tool I it that night.

    I've always wondered how no one heard anything. There are high end homes lining the river. I've driven down that road min the middle of the night and its so quiet that its eery. Any little disturbance could have easily been overheard. Then again, it was so early in the spring that no one would have had their windows open yet.
    Sorry, I'm having issues editing this post. I meant to say that the locks on the gate aren't strong, and that someone may have forgotten to lock it that night.
    Also, I wanted the clarify that in this park it's unlikely any one would have heard something, but I wonder why no one heard anything when he was abducted from the corner of St. Clair and Mississippi River blvd

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  18. #110
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    I am going to have goggle St.Clair,MRB to see the area,do you know what time he went missing & is it busy at that time-Thanks

  19. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by SyraKelly View Post
    I am going to have goggle St.Clair,MRB to see the area,do you know what time he went missing & is it busy at that time-Thanks
    I believe it was about 3am when he went missing. He was on the phone with a friend who was driving to come get him. There are conflicting reports as to what was said in that conversation. I've read that he had called out for help, which I tend to believe. By all accounts, he left the party that he was at upset.

    That area is extremely quiet at that time. Eerily so. It's a safe neighborhood,with high end homes, but its not a place that I would be walking around alone that late at night.

  20. #112
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    Thanks for that info,I have to run out for a while,but when I get back I will look for a few videos that I think you will be interested in seeing and post them.They are haunting to watch!See you in a bit!

  21. #113
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    I don't know if you've ever seen this website,but it list all the young men & their stories about when they went missing..I am still looking for those videos.Will post when I find them

    http://footprintsattheriversedge.blo...hicago-il.html

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  23. #114
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    I believe that the killer(s) are followers of the poet Gary Snyder, possibly American Indian, and may be collegiate wrestlers.

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  25. #115
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    I found the Josh Szostak video

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TK0i-dYLCNg"]Josh Szostak - Last known time seen alive - Smiley Face Killers Case - YouTube[/ame]

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  27. #116
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    I am looking for the video of the young man who was running down a street half naked & broke a window in a medical office I think..he was found the next day I believe in a near by waterway.

  28. #117
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    Has anyone ever heard anything about candles being light under a bridge or anything? Kind an off topic question but was just wondering because in Eau Claire at the time right before these young men went missing my friend and I were walking along and seen a bunch of candles under the bridge light. We were going to go down and see what it was but half way down we got the chills and turned back.
    I have just always wondered about this because it was very odd to see this. And the months following the men in Eau Claire started to go missing. I've always wondered if that could possible be a way to lure men down by the river.
    I'm sure it's nothing but just wondering if there has ever been any other reportings about this.

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  30. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by SyraKelly View Post
    I don't know if you've ever seen this website,but it list all the young men & their stories about when they went missing..I am still looking for those videos.Will post when I find them

    http://footprintsattheriversedge.blo...hicago-il.html
    I have seen this website. It's maintained very well.

  31. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by SyraKelly View Post
    Thanks for posting this. Did he rip off his shirt? And then go running off? He definitely looks drugged to me.

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  33. #120
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    Just wanted to share this. Former DEA agent Jerry Snyder has formed an investigative team,the I team,who are looking into the 200+ drownings of young men.

    http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?sec...eam&id=9028337

    ^This article is only 3 days old.

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  35. #121
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    Patrick McNeill Jr,missing 2/17/97- located 4/7/97, is thought to be the first victim and his is the case that caught the attn of former Det. Gannon.

    Here is his case analysis,made public with his parents permission. The case analysis is quite detailed,and obvious from witnesses that he was followed. This young man was tortured...ligature marks found,burn marks,fly larvae found in groin region which suggests he was held for a long period of time.

    Cut & pasted:

    r Gannon had a partial plate. The Missing Persons supervisor would not pay for a "lawman search" (i.e., a search of all number-letter combinations) in order to identify a plate number for the vehicle hat was following Patrick and described by witnesses at the scene. Authorities said it was too expensive ($1,200 at that time). This information was critical and would have led to the identity of hose in question who were in that vehicle that evening and were certainly "Persons of Interest" regarding Patrick's disappearance.

    http://www.nationwideinvestigations.us/case1.html

    There is much to read there about this highly disturbing case.

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  37. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danarskistein View Post
    Thanks for posting this. Did he rip off his shirt? And then go running off? He definitely looks drugged to me.
    Some people where speculating that the 2 girls who walked in front of him * jabbed him with something.He seems to be OK when he first walked out,but then started to act strange after the girls.He looks like he looking for something,then takes his coat of to maybe getting warm.But also watch the 2 guys coming from the right.They look and almost approached him,but then turn away when Josh heads their way,then you see the 2 girls enter from the right from the same direction that Josh went & the 2 guys go..Those 2 girls & 2 guys are just not right IMO-I don't think Josh ran,but stumbled away!
    You have to see the video of the kid who I mentioned above,kicking the window..that is something to see,very scary to watch..I still can't find it,but still looking!!

  38. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by SyraKelly View Post
    Some people where speculating that the 2 girls who walked in front of him * jabbed him with something.He seems to be OK when he first walked out,but then started to act strange after the girls.He looks like he looking for something,then takes his coat of to maybe getting warm.But also watch the 2 guys coming from the right.They look and almost approached him,but then turn away when Josh heads their way,then you see the 2 girls enter from the right from the same direction that Josh went & the 2 guys go..Those 2 girls & 2 guys are just not right IMO-I don't think Josh ran,but stumbled away!
    You have to see the video of the kid who I mentioned above,kicking the window..that is something to see,very scary to watch..I still can't find it,but still looking!!





    Yes,the Szostak(sp?) video is disturbing.

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  40. #124
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    I found the boy's name of the video I am looking for-Alexander Grant! If anyone knows where this video is,could please post it.TIA


    Auburn-besides disturbing,what else do you see in the video? I always like see hear what other people think!

  41. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vivalor View Post
    Has anyone ever heard anything about candles being light under a bridge or anything? Kind an off topic question but was just wondering because in Eau Claire at the time right before these young men went missing my friend and I were walking along and seen a bunch of candles under the bridge light. We were going to go down and see what it was but half way down we got the chills and turned back.
    I have just always wondered about this because it was very odd to see this. And the months following the men in Eau Claire started to go missing. I've always wondered if that could possible be a way to lure men down by the river.
    I'm sure it's nothing but just wondering if there has ever been any other reportings about this.
    I have never heard of the candles.Just st some crime scenes there were pics of smiley faces.I don't really know what to think about them!

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