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View Poll Results: Why did Madeleine 'go missing'?

Voters
509. You may not vote on this poll
  • She was abducted

    187 36.74%
  • She wandered off and disappeared

    14 2.75%
  • She was overdosed on sedatives; parents covered it up

    168 33.01%
  • She met with an accident; parents covered it up

    65 12.77%
  • One of her parents was violent to her and killed her

    63 12.38%
  • Any other reason Madeleine went missing

    12 2.36%

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  1. #961
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
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    Poland
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    699
    Quote Originally Posted by haden View Post
    It took me long back in 2007 to understand this.
    My understanding of this issue is:
    British families often holiday in so called closed holiday resorts, I know people holidaying like this in Kenya, Turkey, Greece etc.. where you don't really get in touch with the locals or anyone from the outside comes to the resort unless they work there.
    Mark Warner owns or manages some such resorts. McCanns stayed in a closed resort in Kos, Greece and decided to do the same in Portugal.
    This is why they had the false feeling of being safe to leave their children as in such types of resorts it is really safe.
    Many of the British tourists who tend to go on holiday in family resorts have the same routine, leaving their children in their rooms in these resorts.
    When they arrived to Ocean Club this is when they realised this resort wasn't a closed resort but since the type of management was similar to what they've seen around they behaved the similar way.
    Other resorts had the 'listening service' which their friends used in past in Kos.
    This listening service meant all parents leave their children alone in rooms in the evening and the resort staff walks around from door to door and listens to the children, if children cry they alert the parents.
    This was seen advertised for the Ocean Club too.
    Prior to their departure from the UK Kate McCann found out there was not listening service in Portugal.
    She then, this I read long ago, complains to Ocean Club as it was advertised in their brochure. They decide to give her discount for misunderstanding and then McCanns and their friends leave for Portugal.
    When they arrived they decided to imitate the listening service, to do it between themselves, same thing what is done in other resorts.
    It was never reported whose idea this was, but this is the idea they followed and I kind of understand it.. they thought it was many of them and they can do it.. if they knew of the crime rate in Ocean Club they would probably think twice but they did not know.
    And they did not use the creche that was so close. They did not get the nanny. Stop blaming the resort for McCanns own choice.
    What do you fear most... in the world?
    The possibility that love is not enough
    Twin Peaks

  2. #962
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Kansas Prairie
    Posts
    503
    Quote Originally Posted by SapphireSteel View Post
    ,Yvone Martin: Witness Statement PJ Files


    Processos Vol XIII
    Pages 3430 - 3433 or pages 141-143

    YVONE WARREN MARTIN

    Places Worked:
    1. Gateshead, Tyne & Wear
    2. Southshields, Tyne & Wear
    3. Newcastle, Tyne & Wear
    4. York, North Yorkshire
    5. Hull, Kingston Upon Hull
    6. North Tyneside, Tyne & Wear
    7. Plymouth, Devon

    Witness Statement

    Date: 2007/11/14
    Time: 10H30
    Place: DIC Portimao

    Name: YVONE WARREN MARTIN

    Profession: Social Services and Child Protection

    She comes to the process as a witness and as she does not speak Portuguese she is accompanied by interpreter Filipa Maria da Conceição Silva who will translate all questions and answers into English.

    The witness has given a previous statement to this police force regarding the facts in question. This took place on 13-06-2007 and led to the inquiry of the statement that was taken. The witness confirms the complete integrity of that statement, everything was fully reproduced for this file. The witness was also shown attached page showing the places of work where she carried out her professional activities as Social Services Manager for Child Protection, having also confirmed that these were the cities where she carried out her professional activities.

    She states that in the course of her contact with Madeleine's parents, described in detail in her previous statements, Kate told her that the child had been taken by a couple. During the meeting they had, the details of which are contained in her previous statement, she did not have the opportunity to ask in depth about this question nor about any other.

    With regards to the individual who was close to Madeleine's parents when she met them, and who was later identified as David Payne, she reaffirms that the same individual seems familiar, possibly as this same individual intervened in a situation related to a professional activity of the witness. She clarifies that neither on that occasion, nor now that time has passed, can she remember concretely the place or the situation in which she may have come to know David Payne, but that she continues to think that the same individual is familiar to her but cannot state the particular situation.

    She adds that her hypothesis is that she may have come to know him professionally through work, potentially having been colleagues at work or have worked at the same place but she cannot be certain where she met him as she does not remember

    She says that about two weeks after Madeleine's disappearance, when the police made an appeal for information about a man, carrying a child, who had been seen in the Luz zone, and whose clothing was described, she wrote an anonymous letter to the British police, telling them the following: regarding the various details she observed during her contact with the McCanns it is her opinion that they could be in some way involved in the disappearance of Madeleine.

    She first found them aggressive and their reaction after she showed Madeleine's parents her credentials, also seemed strange to her. Afterwards she was informed that there were no signs of a break-in in the apartment. Knowing that they are doctors she found it absolutely abnormal that they left their children alone at home. Associating all of this with her professional experience, which tells her that in 99.99 % of missing children cases, the parents or other family members are involved, she felt it was her duty to inform the police of this.

    She did this anonymously because she did not want to be bothered by the media. But she also states that according to what she remembers, when she met with Madeleine's parents, David Payne, who was with them, was wearing a dark polo shirt, blue or black coloured, cream coloured long trousers, of linen or cotton, and dark shoes (sandal/slipper type without a back buckle/catch). In her opinion, this clothing matches perfectly with the clothing the Police described the man (carrying the child) to be wearing at the time. All these coincidences made the witness think that the parents and their friends could possibly be involved in the disappearance of the child.

    She declares that one of her main aims when she wrote the anonymous letter was for the British police to check the paedophile or child abusers registers and whether David Payne was on that list...

    http://www.mccannfiles.com/id236.html



    Yeah kind of creepy isn't it...? Payne is the one who spoke of their "pact".



    Also kind of sad that Ms Martin felt unable to voice her concerns directly to the British police, as neither a witness nor a fellow professional. She wrote to them anonymously.
    I have to say Yvonne Martin may have had good intentions, but her delivery was intrusive and ill-timed. As posted below, she was just "in the area" and thought she might help. But asking the McCann's if Gerry was the real father and trying to separate Kate from the others would have made me suspicious too. She showed them her British credentials, as though she was indicating that she was there on official business, which was not the case. She was mad at Payne because he advised the McCann's to be more cautious because she WAS an odd stranger asking very personal questions. What if she was with the kidnappers? Who knew? So she turns Payne in anonymously as a possible pedophile. IMOO if she is going to work for Social Services and Child Protection, she better be able to stand up to people, not sneak around. Not going to protect any children that way.

    Here is her more detailed statement:

    Date: 2007.06.13

    Time: 12H00

    Name: YVONE WARREN MARTIN

    Profession: Social Services and Child Protection...

    She says that she has lived in Portugal for seven years on a part-time basis, in other words, for some months of the year she lives in her home in Sargaçal and
    for the rest of the year lives in England, where she still works.

    During the past month of May or more precisely on the 04th of May 2007, the witness was in Portugal, enjoying holidays, when at about 07H00 she turned on the television and watched an English news channel (BBC or SKY NEWS) where she saw an appeal to British citizens on holiday in the Algarve to offer all possible support to a British couple who were on holiday in Praia da Luz and whose daughter, a child, had disappeared on May 03, 2007.

    As she works directly with situations of children at risk, and as she was very close to Praia da Luz, she went there with the intention of offering her help and support to the couple, she arrived there at about 09H30...

    At first, she could not locate the exact site where the family was staying on holiday. Upon seeing a police patrol car which passed close by her, she asked the police if they could show her the right location. She was accompanied by the patrol car to the apartment from where the child had disappeared and where the parents were staying.

    At the scene, she found a group of three people, two males and one female.

    She went over to the group and identified herself.
    Two members of that group, a male and a female, identified themselves as the parents of the missing child - the McCann couple.

    The couple was visibly upset, and the mother was crying intensely.

    The third person never identified himself, upon the witness's insistence the couple replied that he was a close friend of the family.

    She adds that this third person appeared familiar to her.

    Taking advantage of the information that she had heard on the news, she began questioning the couple about how often they had checked on the children, obtaining the reply that people would go to see them every hour.
    As is normal and routine in her service, she asked whether Gerry was the biological father of the missing child, to which he replied yes.

    She clarifies that she asked this question because during the course of her 25 years of service working with children at risk, it is very normal that when a couple has child and where the father or the mother is not a biological parent, the biological parent may have a tendency to come and "get" his child.


    After having obtained the verbal response from Gerry, the mother, Kate, questioned what she was doing asking these questions which should be asked by the police, who were already on the scene in large numbers searching for her daughter, who had been taken by a couple.

    At this moment, the witness notices that the couple began to have
    doubts about her capacity and she immediately showed them her official documents and credentials issued by the British government to calm them down.

    Gerry took her documents and showed them to the third person and told him that they were authentic and were certified by the police.

    At this moment, the witness wishes to clarify that, in England, anyone who works with children, whether a doctor, police officer or social worker, has to have a proper credential certified by the police and that this was one of the documents she showed to the McCann's.

    Because she found it strange that Kate told her that her daughter had been taken by a couple, she tried to separate her from the other two individuals so that she could speak to her with more privacy, suggesting to Kate that they (Y and K) should enter the apartment, Kate aggressively rejected this idea and told her that they could speak on the street.

    The witness then asked whether anyone from the Medical Centre had been with Kate as she was very agitated and needed some support, she was told they hadn't.


    At this point, Kate told her that her daughter had disappeared 13 hours ago. It was about 10 in the morning.

    Meanwhile a fourth individual came towards the group and identified himself as a journalist. The witness alerted the couple to the type of statements they should give and that it would be better for them to keep silent.

    At this moment, the third person, who was always near to the couple and the witness, moved the couple away from her and the three of them talked in whispers for some time.

    After this, and leaving the couple behind him, he approached the witness and told her that the couple did not want to speak any more with her, nor with anyone else.

    The witness replied to him that if the McCann couple felt the need to talk to her later, she would be at their total disposal.

    As she said earlier, this third person of the group is familiar to her, and thinks that she may have come across him in the course of her work, as a suspect or witness.

    She describes him as tall man, height about 1,80 m, about 35 years old, of normal physical complexion, with short, dark hair, with a round face and with a scar on the left side of his face running from the eyebrow to the check. He uses graduated glasses of small dimension with rectangular lenses. He spoke with a southern English accent and was wearing cream coloured trousers and a dark polo shirt.

    When asked whether that it would be possible to identify him from a photograph, the witness replied yes.

    She adds that, after having spoken to the McCann couple, she spoke to the resort manager, and after identifying herself, asked him whether there had been a break-in in the apartment where the child was, to which he replied no but that the door was open as were the window blinds, which, according to Kate, should have been closed but were found open.



    As I said, she may have meant well, but she was butting into a horrible situation where she had no business.
    I'd have kicked her out too.

    Can't we all just get along? ~ Rodney King

  3. #963
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    9,336
    Quote Originally Posted by Inana View Post
    I have to say Yvonne Martin may have had good intentions, but her delivery was intrusive and ill-timed. As posted below, she was just "in the area" and thought she might help. But asking the McCann's if Gerry was the real father and trying to separate Kate from the others would have made me suspicious too. She showed them her British credentials, as though she was indicating that she was there on official business, which was not the case. She was mad at Payne because he advised the McCann's to be more cautious because she WAS an odd stranger asking very personal questions. What if she was with the kidnappers? Who knew? So she turns Payne in anonymously as a possible pedophile. IMOO if she is going to work for Social Services and Child Protection, she better be able to stand up to people, not sneak around. Not going to protect any children that way.

    Here is her more detailed statement:

    Date: 2007.06.13

    Time: 12H00

    Name: YVONE WARREN MARTIN

    Profession: Social Services and Child Protection...

    She says that she has lived in Portugal for seven years on a part-time basis, in other words, for some months of the year she lives in her home in Sargaçal and
    for the rest of the year lives in England, where she still works.

    During the past month of May or more precisely on the 04th of May 2007, the witness was in Portugal, enjoying holidays, when at about 07H00 she turned on the television and watched an English news channel (BBC or SKY NEWS) where she saw an appeal to British citizens on holiday in the Algarve to offer all possible support to a British couple who were on holiday in Praia da Luz and whose daughter, a child, had disappeared on May 03, 2007.

    As she works directly with situations of children at risk, and as she was very close to Praia da Luz, she went there with the intention of offering her help and support to the couple, she arrived there at about 09H30...

    At first, she could not locate the exact site where the family was staying on holiday. Upon seeing a police patrol car which passed close by her, she asked the police if they could show her the right location. She was accompanied by the patrol car to the apartment from where the child had disappeared and where the parents were staying.

    At the scene, she found a group of three people, two males and one female.

    She went over to the group and identified herself.
    Two members of that group, a male and a female, identified themselves as the parents of the missing child - the McCann couple.

    The couple was visibly upset, and the mother was crying intensely.

    The third person never identified himself, upon the witness's insistence the couple replied that he was a close friend of the family.

    She adds that this third person appeared familiar to her.

    Taking advantage of the information that she had heard on the news, she began questioning the couple about how often they had checked on the children, obtaining the reply that people would go to see them every hour.
    As is normal and routine in her service, she asked whether Gerry was the biological father of the missing child, to which he replied yes.

    She clarifies that she asked this question because during the course of her 25 years of service working with children at risk, it is very normal that when a couple has child and where the father or the mother is not a biological parent, the biological parent may have a tendency to come and "get" his child.


    After having obtained the verbal response from Gerry, the mother, Kate, questioned what she was doing asking these questions which should be asked by the police, who were already on the scene in large numbers searching for her daughter, who had been taken by a couple.

    At this moment, the witness notices that the couple began to have
    doubts about her capacity and she immediately showed them her official documents and credentials issued by the British government to calm them down.

    Gerry took her documents and showed them to the third person and told him that they were authentic and were certified by the police.

    At this moment, the witness wishes to clarify that, in England, anyone who works with children, whether a doctor, police officer or social worker, has to have a proper credential certified by the police and that this was one of the documents she showed to the McCann's.

    Because she found it strange that Kate told her that her daughter had been taken by a couple, she tried to separate her from the other two individuals so that she could speak to her with more privacy, suggesting to Kate that they (Y and K) should enter the apartment, Kate aggressively rejected this idea and told her that they could speak on the street.

    The witness then asked whether anyone from the Medical Centre had been with Kate as she was very agitated and needed some support, she was told they hadn't.


    At this point, Kate told her that her daughter had disappeared 13 hours ago. It was about 10 in the morning.

    Meanwhile a fourth individual came towards the group and identified himself as a journalist. The witness alerted the couple to the type of statements they should give and that it would be better for them to keep silent.

    At this moment, the third person, who was always near to the couple and the witness, moved the couple away from her and the three of them talked in whispers for some time.

    After this, and leaving the couple behind him, he approached the witness and told her that the couple did not want to speak any more with her, nor with anyone else.

    The witness replied to him that if the McCann couple felt the need to talk to her later, she would be at their total disposal.

    As she said earlier, this third person of the group is familiar to her, and thinks that she may have come across him in the course of her work, as a suspect or witness.

    She describes him as tall man, height about 1,80 m, about 35 years old, of normal physical complexion, with short, dark hair, with a round face and with a scar on the left side of his face running from the eyebrow to the check. He uses graduated glasses of small dimension with rectangular lenses. He spoke with a southern English accent and was wearing cream coloured trousers and a dark polo shirt.

    When asked whether that it would be possible to identify him from a photograph, the witness replied yes.

    She adds that, after having spoken to the McCann couple, she spoke to the resort manager, and after identifying herself, asked him whether there had been a break-in in the apartment where the child was, to which he replied no but that the door was open as were the window blinds, which, according to Kate, should have been closed but were found open.



    As I said, she may have meant well, but she was butting into a horrible situation where she had no business.
    I'd have kicked her out too.

    IDk, but here in the States, all Social Workers are "mandated reporters". They are legally required to contact LE if they see any type of abuse or blatant neglect regarding a child. And LE will pay close attention to any such reporting by a licensed Social Worker. jmo moo

  4. #964
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    6,639
    Quote Originally Posted by haden View Post
    It took me long back in 2007 to understand this.
    My understanding of this issue is:
    British families often holiday in so called closed holiday resorts, I know people holidaying like this in Kenya, Turkey, Greece etc.. where you don't really get in touch with the locals or anyone from the outside comes to the resort unless they work there.
    Mark Warner owns or manages some such resorts. McCanns stayed in a closed resort in Kos, Greece and decided to do the same in Portugal.
    This is why they had the false feeling of being safe to leave their children as in such types of resorts it is really safe.
    Many of the British tourists who tend to go on holiday in family resorts have the same routine, leaving their children in their rooms in these resorts.
    When they arrived to Ocean Club this is when they realised this resort wasn't a closed resort but since the type of management was similar to what they've seen around they behaved the similar way.
    Other resorts had the 'listening service' which their friends used in past in Kos.
    This listening service meant all parents leave their children alone in rooms in the evening and the resort staff walks around from door to door and listens to the children, if children cry they alert the parents.
    This was seen advertised for the Ocean Club too.
    Prior to their departure from the UK Kate McCann found out there was not listening service in Portugal.She then, this I read long ago, complains to Ocean Club as it was advertised in their brochure. They decide to give her discount for misunderstanding and then McCanns and their friends leave for Portugal.
    When they arrived they decided to imitate the listening service, to do it between themselves, same thing what is done in other resorts.
    It was never reported whose idea this was, but this is the idea they followed and I kind of understand it.. they thought it was many of them and they can do it.. if they knew of the crime rate in Ocean Club they would probably think twice but they did not know.
    bbm

    Oh boy. How convenient that Kate and Gerry knew there was no listening service, meaning no employees would be walking around and checking on kids and be possible witnesses to a fake abduction.

    How convenient that they also probably knew of the crime rate in Ocean Club and that is the resort they chose to go to. Kind of fits into their whole story, doesn't it?
    Now my philosophy is that it's never okay to kill someone. -- Convicted Murderer Jodi Arias

  5. #965
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    299
    Quote Originally Posted by haden View Post
    It took me long back in 2007 to understand this.
    My understanding of this issue is:
    British families often holiday in so called closed holiday resorts, I know people holidaying like this in Kenya, Turkey, Greece etc.. where you don't really get in touch with the locals or anyone from the outside comes to the resort unless they work there.
    Mark Warner owns or manages some such resorts. McCanns stayed in a closed resort in Kos, Greece and decided to do the same in Portugal.
    This is why they had the false feeling of being safe to leave their children as in such types of resorts it is really safe.
    Many of the British tourists who tend to go on holiday in family resorts have the same routine, leaving their children in their rooms in these resorts.
    When they arrived to Ocean Club this is when they realised this resort wasn't a closed resort but since the type of management was similar to what they've seen around they behaved the similar way.
    Other resorts had the 'listening service' which their friends used in past in Kos.
    This listening service meant all parents leave their children alone in rooms in the evening and the resort staff walks around from door to door and listens to the children, if children cry they alert the parents.
    This was seen advertised for the Ocean Club too.
    Prior to their departure from the UK Kate McCann found out there was not listening service in Portugal.
    She then, this I read long ago, complains to Ocean Club as it was advertised in their brochure. They decide to give her discount for misunderstanding and then McCanns and their friends leave for Portugal.
    When they arrived they decided to imitate the listening service, to do it between themselves, same thing what is done in other resorts.
    It was never reported whose idea this was, but this is the idea they followed and I kind of understand it.. they thought it was many of them and they can do it.. if they knew of the crime rate in Ocean Club they would probably think twice but they did not know.
    The Ocean Club in Portugal is not a CLOSED HOLIDAY RESORT.

    A CHR, is like Butlins, where you have to log in and out and the only people in there are staying in there.

    I lived in Kenya for 2 years there is no way with the same scenario as the one in Portugal would I leave children on their own in an outside apartment to the main area......

    The Ocean Club was just that a club with facilities, swimming pool, kids activity and creche, and bar.

    There were apartments on the OUTSIDE perimeter which were access by ANYONE walking about Praia Da Luz.

    IF the Ocean Club had been a closed resort, then they would have provided all the accommodation within the boundarys, so anyone coming in would have to identify themselves that they were staying there.

    The apartment 5A belonged to someone privately and was hired out for summer vacations.

    This being the case it was not suitable for a listening service and that is way the Ocean Club would not do this. Other Ocean Club facilities do a listening service as all the accommodation is in house.

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