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Thread: D.B. Cooper still Alive? Part 3...

  1. #426
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    Sim

    Quote Originally Posted by adnoid View Post
    Well, I wasn't talking to you, but here it is in smaller words.

    If you are using a simulator to try to figure out how things happened, and the simulator is not accurate, your results are suspect.
    That would be correct, That's why I'm going thru everything checking all points from front to back making sure it's running correctly, I have nothing but time so I'm in no rush to start real flight data.

    Thanks for the info on the doors by the way

    A lot of the forms I'm reading about this software state if you don't want to learn how to fly, buy a different program because this is pretty close to the real deal as far as controlling the plane, I also did some spot checking on the accuracy of the GPS and seems to be pretty dam good so far.

    Complete with
    fully functional cockpit gauges, knob, dials
    over 7 pages of weather data including realtime weather data every 15 minutes
    day, date, time
    complete control of cabin, amount of passengers and crew (including luggage and crew gear)
    Garmin GPS
    ATC
    doors are operable
    Cold dead start to turn key start
    added on Ground Enviroment Pro, sky 6, and now updating to Ultimate Terrain USA
    727-100
    727-200
    Cargo and passenger
    every small to large airport is on here
    really is a good sim for the age and for use on a computer VS a pro set up.
    Last edited by MrShutter45; 07-03-2012 at 10:32 PM.

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  3. #427
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    Mr45

    Bravo on your work to simulate the flight path. I am looking forward to your results. I agree that this type of modeling could uncover something unusual that could be looked into.

    The talk I gave at the conference included an analysis of the SAGE radar viewing angles for the flight path to determine if there was any time that the plane would have been in a radar shadow. There was no time that happened according to the analysis. This in my opinion makes it less likely the generated flight path was in error.

    Tom Kaye

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  5. #428
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    Simulator

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKaye View Post
    Mr45

    Bravo on your work to simulate the flight path. I am looking forward to your results. I agree that this type of modeling could uncover something unusual that could be looked into.

    The talk I gave at the conference included an analysis of the SAGE radar viewing angles for the flight path to determine if there was any time that the plane would have been in a radar shadow. There was no time that happened according to the analysis. This in my opinion makes it less likely the generated flight path was in error.

    Tom Kaye
    Thanks Tom! I don't believe I have ever read anyone doing this so I figured what the hell it's worth a try and possibly find something, ya never know until ya do it

  6. #429
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    SAGE tracking

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKaye View Post
    The talk I gave at the conference included an analysis of the SAGE radar viewing angles for the flight path to determine if there was any time that the plane would have been in a radar shadow. There was no time that happened according to the analysis. This in my opinion makes it less likely the generated flight path was in error.

    Tom Kaye
    Tom,

    Did your analysis relate to the Mt. Hebo radar site?

  7. #430
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomKaye View Post
    Mr45

    Bravo on your work to simulate the flight path. I am looking forward to your results. I agree that this type of modeling could uncover something unusual that could be looked into.

    The talk I gave at the conference included an analysis of the SAGE radar viewing angles for the flight path to determine if there was any time that the plane would have been in a radar shadow. There was no time that happened according to the analysis. This in my opinion makes it less likely the generated flight path was in error.

    Tom Kaye
    Did you uncover who made the FBI map and how and when (the process)?

    By 'radar shadow' I assume you are talking about the length from SEA to
    PDX. Who was watching the radar? And what of Jerry Thomas's highly
    tauted 'McChord radar tapes' being stored at a secret military facility out east?

  8. #431
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by hominid View Post
    Mr...45,

    I would like you to stay. When you get the hang of it you can just ignore whatever you want to on a forum. Participate the way you want to. Skip the garbage. I will be bypassing "we know alls." You post something... I'll read it and respond if I have anything to say about it. You've been doing something potentially useful here.
    Yes, please stay - there is a way to "ignore" these "we know alls"!!

    Go to "User CP" - top of the page on the left after "Home", then scroll down on the left side to "Settings & Options" you'll see "Edit Ignore List" -click and put whomever you like on there!

    edited to add: I would really like to see the results of your "flight"!!!
    ******
    Life isn't about waiting for the storms to pass...
    It's about learning to dance in the rain!

    ******
    ******
    We are not human beings having a spiritual experience,
    we are spiritual beings having a human experience.

    ******
    ******~~Veni, Vidi, Velcro!
    I came, I saw, I stuck around!~~

    ******

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  10. #432
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    Thumbs up

    Oh I should have read further - Adnoid stepped in...
    ******
    Life isn't about waiting for the storms to pass...
    It's about learning to dance in the rain!

    ******
    ******
    We are not human beings having a spiritual experience,
    we are spiritual beings having a human experience.

    ******
    ******~~Veni, Vidi, Velcro!
    I came, I saw, I stuck around!~~

    ******

  11. #433
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    Take off time

    Sluggo says this on his site for take off time?

    19:33 PST
    Flt 305 takes off
    None
    Estimated based on next transmission.
    19:37 PST
    SEA CNTR request Flt 305 ident. [this is a process of making sure ATC is tracking the right “Blip” on their radar]. And verify assigned altitude of 10,000 ft.
    SEA CNTR
    Comm. with SEA CNTR
    19:40 PST
    Flt 305 reports through 6500 ft. and trying to get the steps down back there
    Pilot
    Comm. with SEA CNTR
    19:40 PST
    Flt 305 reports leveling off at 7,000 ft. Cooper wants the stairs down and they are slowing to about 160 KIAS.
    Pilot
    Comm. with SEA CNTR
    19:42 PST
    Flt 305 reports “14 NM out of SEA on Victor-23. Cooper is trying to get the door down, Stew is with us, he cannot get the stairs down. We now have an aft stair light on.
    Pilot
    Comm. with Flt-Ops MSP
    19:44 PST
    Flt 305 advises they will hold at 7,000 ft. We have the back steps down now and it looks like we aren’t going to be able to climb anymore.
    Pilot
    Comm. with SEA CNTR
    19:45 PST
    Flt 305 reports 19 NM DME out of SEA at 7,000 ft. No comm.. with Cooper but have an aft stair light.
    Pilot
    Comm. with Flt-Ops MSP
    19:45 PST
    Fly Ops MSP advises that after a while someone will have to go back and take a look to see if he is out of the aircraft. Also, if they have to go any distance in that configuration their indicated optimum speed is 170 knots. Portland, Medford, and Red Bluff are available alternate airports.
    Flt-Ops MSP
    Comm. with Flt-Ops MSP
    19:46 PST
    Flt-Ops SEA has the enroute weather, its Fog and Haze
    Flt-Ops SEA
    Comm. between Flt-Ops MSP and Flt-Ops SEA
    19:48 PST
    Flt 305 reports 160 KIAS, which is about 5 knots above stall speed. Holding at 7,000 ft. Fuel flow is 4500 gal/hr.
    Pilot
    Comm. with Flt-Ops MSP
    19:48 PST
    Flt Ops MSP advises they will not make it to Reno in that configuration. Unless he is gone. Also, the higher the cabin is [meaning the lower the pressure due to altitude] the better if you guys have mask on [supplied oxygen]
    F

  12. #434
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrShutter45 View Post
    That would be correct, That's why I'm going thru everything checking all points from front to back making sure it's running correctly, I have nothing but time so I'm in no rush to start real flight data.

    Thanks for the info on the doors by the way

    A lot of the forms I'm reading about this software state if you don't want to learn how to fly, buy a different program because this is pretty close to the real deal as far as controlling the plane, I also did some spot checking on the accuracy of the GPS and seems to be pretty dam good so far.

    Complete with
    fully functional cockpit gauges, knob, dials
    over 7 pages of weather data including realtime weather data every 15 minutes
    day, date, time
    complete control of cabin, amount of passengers and crew (including luggage and crew gear)
    Garmin GPS
    ATC
    doors are operable
    Cold dead start to turn key start
    added on Ground Enviroment Pro, sky 6, and now updating to Ultimate Terrain USA
    727-100
    727-200
    Cargo and passenger
    every small to large airport is on here
    really is a good sim for the age and for use on a computer VS a pro set up.
    Sounds like you're doing well.
    Μολὼν λαβέ



    Email me

  13. #435
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    Quote Originally Posted by georger View Post
    Did you uncover who made the FBI map and how and when (the process)?
    TK: No, there was no info at all about the maps.

    Quote Originally Posted by georger View Post
    By 'radar shadow' I assume you are talking about the length from SEA to PDX. Who was watching the radar? And what of Jerry Thomas's highly tauted 'McChord radar tapes' being stored at a secret military facility out east?
    TK: By "Radar Shadow" I mean a mountain or some such thing that an airplane would fly behind and the radar would not be able to see it. As it turns out, the SAGE system had auxiliary radars to fill in the shadowed areas. It was NOT just one radar at McChord and another at PDX that had the ability to see the aircraft. There was no info at all about any radar data being stored anywhere.

  14. #436
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    I find the entire process you are all doing facsinating.

    I though know little about planes but to fly in them. I do enjoy following it all

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  16. #437
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    Terrain update

    I got the update on the sim, here is a short quick clip with some features, watch in HD for best results

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uLRfw5tG_E"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uLRfw5tG_E[/ame]

  17. #438
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomKaye View Post
    TK: No, there was no info at all about the maps.



    TK: By "Radar Shadow" I mean a mountain or some such thing that an airplane would fly behind and the radar would not be able to see it. As it turns out, the SAGE system had auxiliary radars to fill in the shadowed areas. It was NOT just one radar at McChord and another at PDX that had the ability to see the aircraft. There was no info at all about any radar data being stored anywhere.
    yes - all previously established. thanks.

  18. #439
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    night light patterns of cities

    Mr...45,

    A few days ago I asked about light patterns and you posted a pic of overflying Seattle in 1935 (I think). It really didn't answer the question for me. What I'm wondering about is if Vancouver and Portland look like they would have then (if you have that date set in, and assuming the weather is clear). The FBI flightpath map shows what the light patterns looked like then. You'd have to turn it upside down and look from a low angle to get an idea what it would have looked like when approaching from the north. Could you post a pic for a clear night from about Merwin?

  19. #440
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    1935

    Quote Originally Posted by hominid View Post
    Mr...45,

    A few days ago I asked about light patterns and you posted a pic of overflying Seattle in 1935 (I think). It really didn't answer the question for me. What I'm wondering about is if Vancouver and Portland look like they would have then (if you have that date set in, and assuming the weather is clear). The FBI flightpath map shows what the light patterns looked like then. You'd have to turn it upside down and look from a low angle to get an idea what it would have looked like when approaching from the north. Could you post a pic for a clear night from about Merwin?
    sadly the answer is no, I think it would be to much on them to change each year mapping wise, however there was a big change when I upgraded to the Ultimate Terrain, this can be shut off and use the default system but still probably goes by 2003 mapping.

    that is another question I will ask them because since you can change the weather, why would you put a function in that only changes the date and not it's surrounding but as mentioned I think it would cause the cost to sky rocket.

    I'm sure the sky was not even close to being lit up as today, I remember as a kid a lot of places closed by 8:00 and lights were out, no fear like today. I have a satellite photo from that time period and then today and could post If you want me too?

  20. #441
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    Complete route check

    I am going to study the transcripts as much as I can and find out ever possible move we can put into play and present a flight plan for you guys to tear apart once I put it on here

    once we all agree on how to run this in real time, then we can proceed with actual flights.

    I would love to be able to put two monitors on the system and have someone with me taking notes as we fly, fuel consumption, and mapping, it's seems to be a little to much for me to fly and control a uncontrolled plane watching the altitude and speed is a task in itself, let alone click off the screen and check the fuel.

    I have learned a lot with this in understanding the plane, the reason for the amount of Pilot's etc etc.

    I take the pic right now, be back in a while

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  22. #442
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    I'm sure the sky was not even close to being lit up as today, I remember as a kid a lot of places closed by 8:00 and lights were out, no fear like today. I have a satellite photo from that time period and then today and could post If you want me too?[/quote]

    Yes please post any satellite photos from the period.

  23. #443
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    Portland and Vancouver city lights in '71

    By rotating and cropping the FBI flightpath map, squeezing it down vertically, and adding perspective, this is sort of like the cities would have looked when approaching from the north on a clear night. Oh, yeah. The gold color represents the city lights.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by hominid; 07-06-2012 at 12:25 AM.

  24. #444
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrShutter45 View Post
    ...once we all agree on how to run this in real time, then we can proceed with actual flights.

    I would love to be able to put two monitors on the system and have someone with me taking notes as we fly, fuel consumption, and mapping, it's seems to be a little to much for me to fly and control a uncontrolled plane watching the altitude and speed is a task in itself, let alone click off the screen and check the fuel.
    Please don't say you won't fly unless everyone agrees.

    Does your plane have a PAUSE button?

  25. #445
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    Satellite Pics

    Quote Originally Posted by georger View Post
    I'm sure the sky was not even close to being lit up as today, I remember as a kid a lot of places closed by 8:00 and lights were out, no fear like today. I have a satellite photo from that time period and then today and could post If you want me too?
    Yes please post any satellite photos from the period.[/QUOTE]

    Here is the site where I got the photo's

    http://pum.princeton.edu/muhconferen...ns/Elvidge.pdf

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  27. #446
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    Flight path

    Quote Originally Posted by hominid View Post
    Please don't say you won't fly unless everyone agrees.

    Does your plane have a PAUSE button?
    yes it has a pause, I just hope that will work with the time breaks, haven't checked yet.

    also has a flight time clock, so I guess it would be ok to do that.

    as for the flying, I was referring to us all coming to the same conclusions as to the correct path, time, weather and altitude adjustments etc etc so this can be the best possible scenario we can do

  28. #447
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrShutter45 View Post
    ...as for the flying, I was referring to us all coming to the same conclusions as to the correct path, time, weather and altitude adjustments etc etc so this can be the best possible scenario we can do
    Someone else might like to see a different scenario, but I would like to see an attempt to fly the path shown in the FBI flightpath map and matching everything possible to records of what the conditions were at the time (comm transcript, NWA incident report, av weather reports, NWS weather info from Weather Underground). Maybe it will be enough of a kick for you that you could try some other scenario too if someone wants?

  29. #448
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    Different Path

    Quote Originally Posted by hominid View Post
    Someone else might like to see a different scenario, but I would like to see an attempt to fly the path shown in the FBI flightpath map and matching everything possible to records of what the conditions were at the time (comm transcript, NWA incident report, av weather reports, NWS weather info from Weather Underground). Maybe it will be enough of a kick for you that you could try some other scenario too if someone wants?
    Correct, I would like to recreate the version on the map and from there I could try different approaches and see if any new things arise, but the first step would be to recreate to the best of our ability matching the map.

  30. #449
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    Fuel Consumption

    out of nowhere I decided to take a flight and check the fuel, now, I didn't set up the sim correctly with the weather but here is what I did.

    I flew on V23 at the correct altitudes and speed and got these numbers, I flew for 15 minutes with two sets of numbers. (fuel reads 10,003 29,500 10,003 for a total of 49,506 lbs

    at 12 minutes into the flight I had a fuel reading of 8853 28,350 8853 with 3450 lbs burned.
    at the 15 minute mark it read 8377 27,808 8377 with 4944 lbs burned.

    this would simulate a 7:33 take off and a 7:36 take off.

    Radio Transcript / NWA Transcript
    7:42 ......305 out SEA 14 miles 7:40....14 DME S SEA VOR at 7000'
    gear down flaps extended 30 degress

    tried to separate numbers, didn't work on the last part

  31. #450
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    Fuel Burn and timing

    Quote Originally Posted by MrShutter45 View Post
    ...I flew on V23 at the correct altitudes and speed and got these numbers, I flew for 15 minutes with two sets of numbers. (fuel reads 10,003 29,500 10,003 for a total of 49,506 lbs

    at 12 minutes into the flight I had a fuel reading of 8853 28,350 8853 with 3450 lbs burned.
    at the 15 minute mark it read 8377 27,808 8377 with 4944 lbs burned.

    this would simulate a 7:33 take off and a 7:36 take off.

    Radio Transcript / NWA Transcript
    7:42 ......305 out SEA 14 miles 7:40....14 DME S SEA VOR at 7000' gear down flaps extended 30°
    The 12 minute burn is barely in the ballpark of what the flight reported. 5750lbs/hr/engine where they reported 4500. But the last three minutes seemed to have burned an inordinate amount. Just that last 3 minutes would be 9960 lb/hr/engine. More than 2x what they reported. Seems odd the last 3 minutes would burn so much more. When you flew this, did you have much load other than fuel?

    Your giving the logged comm. re distance and the NWA report info re. distance highlights something significant about the NWA report. It appears at least for the short series of events that were logged at 7:42 on the comm transcript that NWA separated them to a close sequence of times separated by 1 minute each, and in the same sequence. The times on the comm transcript were the times entered automatically when the send key was pressed, not the times when the individual lines were keyed in. It is odd that the report statement for 7:43 was part of the logged comm for 7:42.

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