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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sally View Post
    Glow, great links. Thanks so much for posting them. The bolded part of your statement above is the crux of my disagreement with this raid. Perhaps more frightening than the way this was handled, is that so many people support the actions of CPS.
    I agree Sally. Once a precedent is set we cannot control where (or against which people) it goes next.
    The world is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
    Bertrand Russell

  2. #17
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    If the FLDS was an apartment complex the children would not have been taken. This is an apartment complex with doors to the outside locked, run by a bunch of sex offenders, peopled by parents who believe they must do whatever the sex offenders tell them to with their children.

    If any excuse other than religion were given for this, there'd be no one doubting that the children had to be removed until the parents agreed to stop handing their children's fates over to the sex offenders.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glow View Post
    I agree with you PSUfan. We all have a chance here to learn a better way for in the future dont we?

    Did you ever read this before? It was written about the inactivity of German intellectuals following the Nazi rise to power. I first read it here at WS several years ago when a poster had it as their sig line.

    "In Germany they first came for the Communists and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

    Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

    Then they came for the trade unionists and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

    Then they came for the Catholics and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.

    Then they came for me and by that time no one was left to speak up."
    -Martin Niemöller
    This line could as well work for the children - first they come for your friends, then for your sisters, then for you. And through it all, your parents don't speak up.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Details View Post
    This line could as well work for the children - first they come for your friends, then for your sisters, then for you. And through it all, your parents don't speak up.

    “The children arrived healthy and happy and left sick and crying.”
    http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2008/...-the-children/

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Details View Post
    If the FLDS was an apartment complex the children would not have been taken. This is an apartment complex with doors to the outside locked, run by a bunch of sex offenders, peopled by parents who believe they must do whatever the sex offenders tell them to with their children.

    If any excuse other than religion were given for this, there'd be no one doubting that the children had to be removed until the parents agreed to stop handing their children's fates over to the sex offenders.
    Details,

    We have been "fed" a lot of information in all of this. I think you and I both agree that we need to sift through it all and find out what is really true. In an attempt to do that I am asking you the following,

    This is an apartment complex with doors to the outside locked,

    do we know this to be true?

    run by a bunch of sex offenders

    who specifically?

    peopled by parents who believe they must do whatever the sex offenders tell them to with their children.

    I understand that this religion needs to bring itself up to a higher standard. I am sure that we cannot lump ALL the parents together anymore than I would want to be "lumped" together with "all" the parents in my subdivision OR apartment complex OR congregation.
    The world is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
    Bertrand Russell

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sally View Post
    “The children arrived healthy and happy and left sick and crying.”
    http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2008/...-the-children/
    Thanks Sally. This link and the words of these people carry a lot of weight with me. They were there. They are eye witnesses. They have nothing to gain by telling us what they are. In their words, there is the ring of truth.
    The world is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
    Bertrand Russell

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glow View Post
    Details,

    We have been "fed" a lot of information in all of this. I think you and I both agree that we need to sift through it all and find out what is really true. In an attempt to do that I am asking you the following,

    This is an apartment complex with doors to the outside locked,

    do we know this to be true?

    run by a bunch of sex offenders

    who specifically?

    peopled by parents who believe they must do whatever the sex offenders tell them to with their children.

    I understand that this religion needs to bring itself up to a higher standard. I am sure that we cannot lump ALL the parents together anymore than I would want to be "lumped" together with "all" the parents in my subdivision OR apartment complex OR congregation.
    I can't think of how many more people I need to hear from - ex-FLDS, current FLDS, the media, LE - everyone agrees on these points. They were in a compound - not a place you can leave easily. Sex offenders - Warren Jeffs - even if we omit all of the bishops records, all of the records of underage marrieage of all of these guys, right there we have a convicted sex offender. The last - a key belief of FLDS, confirmed by ex-FLDS (including husbands kicked out for insufficient following of Jeffs) and current alike - they follow Warren Jeffs. They appeal in court for their children to have pictures of him while in foster care.

    It's not about following a religion, it's about giving control of your children to another - when you do that, you should be judged by the person who you've given control to.

  8. #23
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    There are two very interesting articles in today's edition of the San Angelo Standard Times giving CPS and law enforcement's side of the story. I will post a link as soon as it comes available. One article is giving Schleicher County Sheriff David Doran's viewpoint and is extremely detailed, the other gives CPS Angela Voss's viewpoint. From what I'm reading in these articles, the FLDS are cultivating outside sources to skew the story in their favor.

    One thing that caught my attention in one article was the fact that Merrill Jessop refused to allow any men to enter the compound during the initial visit by CPS. Why would he do that? It makes no sense to me.

    During the interviews of children and parents during the "raid", Doran said
    Men from the ranch moved around through the first night with night-vision goggles and videotaped CPS workers and law enforcement, Doran said. "There was never aggression on either side, " Doran said." We allowed them to move freely to the point they cut off cooperation and started tampering with evidence and moving children about the property and avoiding CPS."
    Innocent people don't feel a need to observe with night-vision goggles. Why would they feel they needed night-vision goggles to begin with unless it was for "another" reason?

    Oh, btw...I have not verified this personally, but Sheriff Doran states that there were at least five Sarah's on the ranch...one named Sarah Barlow.

  9. #24
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    I haven't followed this case as closely as I should and I have to admit up front that the FLDS give me the heebie-jeebies because of the way their interpretation of religion seems to oppress and disadvantage children & women.

    Warren Jeffs is a sex offender plain and simple, he's also a dangerous manipulative man who doesn't seem to care what he does to the women and children suppossedly in his spiritual care. The bishops and the parents who are members of Jeffs cult do follow him and seem intent on sweeping his abuse under the carpet.

    Having said that the circumstances leading up to the raid are of concern because as it seems now the calls were a hoax. Because of that it appears the authorities were looking for any reason to raid the compound and when the chance came they jumped at it prematurely & now the mess that's left will cloud any investigation that follows.

    I'm sure CPS had the best of intentions but in their eagerness they seem to have jumped the gun and over stepped their boundaries or as the court ruling said 'abused their discretion'.

    If the written reports of the mental health workers drafted in to help are accurate then yes, there's more of a problem here than just the FLDS.

  10. #25
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    Link to the article on LE viewpoint. http://gosanangelo.com/news/2008/jun...-of-influence/

    Link to the article on CPS viewpoint. http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008...ecount-events/


  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glow View Post
    I agree Sally. Once a precedent is set we cannot control where (or against which people) it goes next.
    Thank goodness for the Court in this matter, which did its job and did not bend to the furor of public opinion.

  12. #27
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    I just want to know if everyone who believes the FLDS over the CPS, have you read anything by the former FLDS? I don't think you can form an educated opinion without reading/watching one or more of the following:

    "Escape" by Carolyn Jessop
    "Under the Banner of Heaven" by John Krakauer
    "Banking on Heaven" by Laurie Allen (DVD)
    "Stolen Innocence" by Elissa Wall
    Flora Jessop Autobiography, http://helpthechildbrides.com/storie...sopautobio.htm
    Personal stories - Experiences from polygamy, http://helpthechildbrides.com/stories.htm

    I think many of you are putting your own personal feelings as a mother onto these women. Unfortunately most of these FLDS women are brainwashed into believing their children belong to the cult and are not their own to raise. This results in distancing any love they may have had, and not having the normal bonding that we have as parents of our children.

    I believe we all have the best interests of the children at heart, but some of you believe it is best for the children to continue to be raised in this cult, while others like me think it is best for the children to be deprogramed away from the influence of the cult.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Details View Post
    I can't think of how many more people I need to hear from - ex-FLDS, current FLDS, the media, LE - everyone agrees on these points.
    Well not everyone but you are right in saying that the majority agree on those points. That does not make them correct necessarily. At one time, the majority of people in leadership positions thought the earth was flat. Turns out, the facts proved otherwise. The lesson I take from that personally is to NEVER assume that what the leadership says or the majority thinks is automatically correct. The facts are what we should listen to. The facts can and should speak for themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Details View Post
    They were in a compound - not a place you can leave easily. Sex offenders - Warren Jeffs - even if we omit all of the bishops records, all of the records of underage marriage of all of these guys, right there we have a convicted sex offender. .
    Yes he is and he is also a deluded religious leader who lost sight of the "road" a long time ago. Therefore he shouldn't be allowed to "drive" (speaking in a spiritual sense) but that is going to take time. The leadership of FLDS is going to have to go through an internal sifting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Details View Post
    The last - a key belief of FLDS, confirmed by ex-FLDS (including husbands kicked out for insufficient following of Jeffs) and current alike - they follow Warren Jeffs. They appeal in court for their children to have pictures of him while in foster care.
    He is for now their spiritual leader or "prophet" who was his picture in a Bible hurting exactly? CPS said that state "policy" prohibits children in state custody having anything that has to do with a convicted felon.

    Oh really? I wonder how many R. Kelly CDs the state has aggressively ripped out of foster homes across Texas? The truth is, that picture wasnt harming the children in any way in the few weeks that they were in TEMPORARY custody. Its just a picture and it could have easily been removed at a later date - after the state proved its case. As it was, it was personal property ( I can hardly think of anything a religious person would assume to be MORE their personal property than their own Bible) and not illegal. Once again, the state over assumed its reach.

    Quote Originally Posted by Details View Post
    It's not about following a religion, it's about giving control of your children to another - when you do that, you should be judged by the person who you've given control to.
    I think if I understand what you are saying here is that the FLDS have given control over to Warren Jeffs and thus deserve what CPS did? I am asking for clarification as I dont want to assume something other than what you meant to say.
    The world is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
    Bertrand Russell

  14. #29
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    I read these two links mykodiak, thank you for posting them.

    I think the timeline here is interesting.

    First, the supreme court overturns the lower court. Added to that, mental health care workers give their eye witness testimony to the atrocities that occurred in the stadium where the women and children were being held.

    The public starts to realize that the titillating tidbits they've been fed by CPS via the mainstream media may not be the real truth....

    The story starts to get a larger voice in the mainstream media even following Gov Perry to France to talk about........................ why he was in France?........... No, to talk about the FLDS case. Im sure that is NOT what he wanted to be talking about while in France. In addition, he didn't do himself any favors by saying the FLDS should "just leave Texas", after his own state had just ordered that the FLDS not travel more than 60 miles without permission of the state. The right hand didn't seem to know what the left was doing.

    Not surprisingly, 2 days (and a flurry of news articles) later, Doran and Voss, two of the point people in this whole affair are giving interviews. What is interesting, is to read the statements CPS made at their own website (I am assuming they haevnt been removed, they were still there last night) about how many underaged pregnant girls OR underage mothers they had. This latest article ( the first one)has added a word. They say there was the "appearance" of underage/pregnant teens. Having to carefully add that word "appearance" is the only way they can still try to sell the original story to us. So basically this raid happened not based on how things factually were but rather on how they "appeared".


    In the second article, Voss keeps stating that CPS were not rude when they began taking the children at the ranch. I guess that is a perception statement, depending on whether you are CPS just doing your job, or a mom with a frightened child clinging to you in the middle of the night. Regardless, CPS and the FLDS agree on the FACT that Jessop had to tell the mothers to make the children go with CPS. That alone tells us that it was a tense and involuntary situation.

    Voss doesn't seem to realize that much of the public outcry on the poor antics perpetrated by CPS are ones that occurred later at the stadium. She seems to keep stressing that everything at the ranch was calm while not realizing that the outcry coming from hearing the stories of the mental health workers was days later...
    again, typical of government no one knows what the other hand is doing.

    To me, these stories sound like an attempt at defending what CPS did. I would have been more impressed with them just being honest.
    The world is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
    Bertrand Russell

  15. #30
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    i cant help remembering Waco and Ruby Ridge. i hope nobody has to die for THIS mess.

    most if not all religions have things that people dont like, or find offensive. i have to wonder if ALL of this is true. poligamy may be wrong, forced child brides are certainly wrong, but were ALL of them practicing these things? these children and their mothers are being punished for what others did. the children are too young to have been married more than once, and the child brides are the victims, not the criminals.

    i think this could have been done differently, but for the life of me i cant see why they did this to the kids instead of the 'men' who supposedly married too much and too young.

    my opinion, dont shoot!!

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