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  1. #31
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    Well Glow, I think it depends on who you believe is the more credible source, the CPS or the FLDS.

    For me there is no contest. If you've read even some of the former FLDS books or articles I've linked above, I would be very surprised if you continue to believe the FLDS were victims in this investigation.

    Again, it is all in whom you choose to believe.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mira View Post
    i cant help remembering Waco and Ruby Ridge. i hope nobody has to die for THIS mess.

    most if not all religions have things that people dont like, or find offensive. i have to wonder if ALL of this is true. poligamy may be wrong, forced child brides are certainly wrong, but were ALL of them practicing these things? these children and their mothers are being punished for what others did. the children are too young to have been married more than once, and the child brides are the victims, not the criminals.

    i think this could have been done differently, but for the life of me i cant see why they did this to the kids instead of the 'men' who supposedly married too much and too young.

    my opinion, dont shoot!!
    Mira, this is an ongoing investigation. The action was about protecting the children, not arresting the men! You can't arrest someone without evidence and due process. But you can protect children if you have reason to believe they are in danger. And that is what was done in this case.

    I'm telling you that the majority of these women are not "mothers" in the same sense we think of mothers. If you have not read some of the links and books I've posted above, then you are not getting the full picture. Please read and listen to what former FLDS women have to say about this cult and the people in it.

  3. #33
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    I keep picking up on tidbits that have been thrown around about CPS's horrible treatment of the FLDS women & children. I'm not saying that all are wrong. I'm not saying that all are right. One that stands out is the one about the baby/toddler that supposedly was left in a stroller for 24 hours with nobody giving it any attention. Well, there were still many, many FLDS women in the stadium with that baby. Why didn't THEY notice a child sitting alone? Why didn't they pick the child up and make sure that it had food and water? We've heard nothing about CPS refusing to allow anyone to touch that child, and yet all we hear is that the child was ignored by CPS. Where were these "wonderful FLDS mothers" when this child was sitting there?

    Glow, How do you know that Doran and Voss aren't being honest? People defend the FLDS and say that they are merely stating the truth as they see it. Well, it is also possible that LE and CPS are doing the same.

    CPS and the FLDS agree on the FACT that Jessop had to tell the mothers to make the children go with CPS. That alone tells us that it was a tense and involuntary situation.
    No, that tells me that the FLDS women are brainwashed to ONLY take orders from the FLDS men. Voss stated that she was surprised at how willingly they complied after he gave the order. It was described as "an incident" in court. It was not the standard for the reaction of all of the FLDS women, only a few. There was also no "ripping children from their mother's arms" as was publicized by FLDS sources. Many people were witnesses as to how calm and orderly the members were loaded onto buses with NO contact by investigators.
    Last edited by mykodiak; 06-08-2008 at 05:30 PM. Reason: To clarify the "incident" comment.

  4. #34
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    Hi Pepper!

    I understand what you are saying. But doesnt every group have its dissadents? And do we let them define the group as a whole?

    I have read Carolyn Jessop and Elissa Wall. I think they both are honest and are telling their story. I do not get the same impression of Flora Jessop. I have seen her interviews starting way back when she was on Oprah years ago. She doesnt resonant with me at all. Im sure that is just me personally and I would feel that way if she had left the Muslim faith and was speaking out against it too. She strikes me as someone with an axe to grind and while I will listen to her.....I cant assume that she is the definitive word. That would make as much sense as if someone wanted to know who I really was and what I was really about....so they went out and rounded up everyone who cant stand me and said "tell me about Glow?" The individual wouldnt get a well rounded picture. But if that individual went and talked to my neighbors, my friends, my children, my minister, AS WELL as my Ex husband and any enemies I might have, then the bits and fragments put together would begin to form a picture of who I really am and what I am all about. That is what I am trying to do here. I am not "pro" FLDS. I am not "anti" CPS. I AM "pro" families belong together and protected and I am "anti" governments legislating our behavoir as families other than in a VERY limited way.

    The problem with this case is it makes me examine my prejudices. Do I think these people act funny and dress weird and have strange customs? Yes I do. Do I have a right to attempt to change them? No I dont. Where is it established that any of my ways and customs are better? The thing I keep seeing over and over is that the minute one mentions underaged girls being married to older men the "ick" factor goes through the roof and the ears shut down and there is a broad net thrown around the group as a whole. The thing is, as it has turned out, there have been innocent women and children and men caught in that net who have been treated horrendously. One for example, a female adult in her mid 20s the state had declared a child, legally married to one man and his only wife. They had a toddler together. Her husband asked to see her knowing birth was imminent. He was denied. She asked to be able to prove her age with a Utah birth certificate and a Utah drivers license and was told no. That proof was from out of state and therefore unacceptable. She ended up giving birth in custody and the state was with her but not her husband. The state was there so they could assume immediate custody of her newborn. When she was released from the hospital, CPS had nowhere to take her since they did not have a safe house available that was certified to foster a newborn. So they took her to CPS headquarters. I cant remember now if she had to spend the night camped in an office until they found an opening for her or not, but it doesnt matter. The whole situation was beyond ridiculous. Her toddler was yanked away, her husband was kept away, she was trying to give birth...the state couldnt even provide her a bed. This story and more just like it and some worse are part of what happened here.
    The world is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
    Bertrand Russell

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
    Mira, this is an ongoing investigation. The action was about protecting the children, not arresting the men! You can't arrest someone without evidence and due process. But you can protect children if you have reason to believe they are in danger. And that is what was done in this case.

    I'm telling you that the majority of these women are not "mothers" in the same sense we think of mothers. If you have not read some of the links and books I've posted above, then you are not getting the full picture. Please read and listen to what former FLDS women have to say about this cult and the people in it.
    Look at myspace.. you have 12-13 yr old girls "pimping" themselves out. You have young teenage girls being indoctrinated into gangs. THONGS sold at preteen shops.

    I personally know of a girl who was 13, and moved into an apartment with her 18 year old boyfriend. She was pregnant. Her grandmother (who raised her) gave permission for her to move in with him.

    Do we take the babies from all of the above families?? Grab the kids, ask questions later. On to foster homes.. and the horror of that. Good luck with that, because this type of behavior is rampant in our society.

    CPS apparantly thought they were above the law in that raid. I do believe in protecting children, but this group is drunk on their own power. I hope they get their asses sued.

    The FLDS raid was carried out on a HOAX. Warren Jeffs is a pedophile, and he is in jail for it, as he should be. To take all of these babies and children from a mother as punishment for Warren Jeffs, with NO evidence that these children were being harmed.. that is very scary to me.

    The other side of the story on this is horrific.

    I find it repugnant that this group advocates marrying young girls to older men, but I find the myspace profiles of so many young girls.. the sexual initiation into gangs, the latchkey kids turning tricks for spending money, to be equally repugnant.

    At least the FLDS kids have some economic safety net, and a social role in their society.

    On another note, I would bet that we still have arranged marriages with old school Asians in this country.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mira View Post
    i cant help remembering Waco and Ruby Ridge. i hope nobody has to die for THIS mess.

    most if not all religions have things that people dont like, or find offensive. i have to wonder if ALL of this is true. poligamy may be wrong, forced child brides are certainly wrong, but were ALL of them practicing these things? these children and their mothers are being punished for what others did. the children are too young to have been married more than once, and the child brides are the victims, not the criminals.

    i think this could have been done differently, but for the life of me i cant see why they did this to the kids instead of the 'men' who supposedly married too much and too young.

    my opinion, dont shoot!!
    LOL on the dont shoot!

    I dont think you have to worry about that Mira Everybody discussing this is pretty calm and logical about things. The thing is the men offered to leave pretty early on but CPS said that is not their protocol. They are correct it isnt. But this situation was highly unusual and would have been an excellent time to review protocol. But that is the problem when you are dealing with an entity. It functions more like a machine or a robot. The "letter" of the law tends to violate or at least take precedence over the "spirit" of the law.
    The world is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
    Bertrand Russell

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by PSUfan View Post
    Look at myspace.. you have 12-13 yr old girls "pimping" themselves out. You have young teenage girls being indoctrinated into gangs. THONGS sold at preteen shops.

    I personally know of a girl who was 13, and moved into an apartment with her 18 year old boyfriend. She was pregnant. Her grandmother (who raised her) gave permission for her to move in with him.

    Do we take the babies from all of the above families?? Grab the kids, ask questions later. On to foster homes.. and the horror of that. Good luck with that, because this type of behavior is rampant in our society.

    CPS apparantly thought they were above the law in that raid. I do believe in protecting children, but this group is drunk on their own power. I hope they get their asses sued.

    The FLDS raid was carried out on a HOAX. Warren Jeffs is a pedophile, and he is in jail for it, as he should be. To take all of these babies and children from a mother as punishment for Warren Jeffs, with NO evidence that these children were being harmed.. that is very scary to me.

    The other side of the story on this is horrific.

    I find it repugnant that this group advocates marrying young girls to older men, but I find the myspace profiles of so many young girls.. the sexual initiation into gangs, the latchkey kids turning tricks for spending money, to be equally repugnant.

    At least the FLDS kids have some economic safety net, and a social role in their society.

    On another note, I would bet that we still have arranged marriages with old school Asians in this country.
    I like the fact that your post paints the big picture on what we are really looking at in our society today.
    The world is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
    Bertrand Russell

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by mykodiak View Post
    I keep picking up on tidbits that have been thrown around about CPS's horrible treatment of the FLDS women & children. I'm not saying that all are wrong. I'm not saying that all are right. One that stands out is the one about the baby/toddler that supposedly was left in a stroller for 24 hours with nobody giving it any attention. Well, there were still many, many FLDS women in the stadium with that baby. Why didn't THEY notice a child sitting alone? Why didn't they pick the child up and make sure that it had food and water? We've heard nothing about CPS refusing to allow anyone to touch that child, and yet all we hear is that the child was ignored by CPS. Where were these "wonderful FLDS mothers" when this child was sitting there?.
    This information is coming from sworn statements from mental health workers that were invited by CPS to assist with the children. The events they are talking about happened AFTER the seperation of the mothers and children at the stadium. I dont know where the young women who were still there were. I dont know how CPS had things sectioned off. I do know that even when the mothers were still with the children at the fort they said it was mass confusion with women being woken up in the middle of the night to be interviewed and having to leave a crying child behind while they were....."interviewed" so I cant imagine the situation got better once they forcibly seperated the mothers and children later at the stadium.


    Quote Originally Posted by mykodiak View Post
    Glow, How do you know that Doran and Voss aren't being honest? People defend the FLDS and say that they are merely stating the truth as they see it. Well, it is also possible that LE and CPS are doing the same.
    I dont know that Doran isnt honest. In the earliest days of the raid I watched him interviewed on TV and he seemed very torn up about things and it seemed he very much wanted the FLDS to be seen as people. Now I think he is just an elected official that is fighting for his job. The FLDS are calling him out because they thought he was their friend and they feel betrayed. If he doesnt "stand up" for the state now, there is no way he will be reelected in November. If the FLDS do like some think and form a voting block I doubt he will get re elected at all. So he is just a man jockying for position and trying to keep his job IMO.

    Angie Voss on the other hand is a liar. Doesnt matter to me that she hid behind her state issued badge to do it. Did you read her sworn testimony? She is who the judge relied on as the "expert" as to whether the children would remain in state custody. She said that she witnessed broken bones and or abuse in every home. That would later be proven to be a lie. I wonder how that woman sleeps at night.

    Quote Originally Posted by mykodiak View Post
    No, that tells me that the FLDS women are brainwashed to ONLY take orders from the FLDS men. Voss stated that she was surprised at how willingly they complied after he gave the order. It was described as "an incident" in court. It was not the standard for the reaction of all of the FLDS women, only a few. There was also no "ripping children from their mother's arms" as was publicized by FLDS sources. Many people were witnesses as to how calm and orderly the members were loaded onto buses with NO contact by investigators.
    Actually there was a ripping of children from their mothers arms. It happened at the stadium. Eyewitnesses said even the policemen were crying. Interesting that the Salvation Army wanted no part of this debacle.

    http://www.truthwillprevail.org/inde...tid=1&index=48


    As far as the women being brainwashed, do you really think they are? I see them as articulate and determined to keep their emotions in check. I dont know how they got through all of this without Valium personally.
    In their society, they seem to be very structured in their patriarchal leadership. Its not dissimilar to the way we are taught from an early age to obey the police. With most law abiding society if we were told to evacuate or given some other order, most of us would follow it. These women were doing a similar thing. The law said one thing, their gut said another. A person who they viewed in a postion of leadership told them to acquiesce. I dont see these women as brainwashed anymore so then the rest of us that think we have to buy a certain breakfast cereal or drive a certain car or let Simon Cowell tell us who sings good.
    The world is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
    Bertrand Russell

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by southcitymom View Post
    Thank goodness for the Court in this matter, which did its job and did not bend to the furor of public opinion.
    I know. I was suprised and heartened by that. I knew from the first days that there was no way that this was going to hold up, but my fear was that these children would be trapped in mid space for years while the courts wrangled. At least now the kids are out of the middle and the wrangling can proceed!
    The world is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
    Bertrand Russell

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glow View Post
    I know. I was suprised and heartened by that. I knew from the first days that there was no way that this was going to hold up, but my fear was that these children would be trapped in mid space for years while the courts wrangled. At least now the kids are out of the middle and the wrangling can proceed!
    And back in danger, I fear...


  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by blaize View Post
    I haven't followed this case as closely as I should and I have to admit up front that the FLDS give me the heebie-jeebies because of the way their interpretation of religion seems to oppress and disadvantage children & women.

    Warren Jeffs is a sex offender plain and simple, he's also a dangerous manipulative man who doesn't seem to care what he does to the women and children suppossedly in his spiritual care. The bishops and the parents who are members of Jeffs cult do follow him and seem intent on sweeping his abuse under the carpet.

    Having said that the circumstances leading up to the raid are of concern because as it seems now the calls were a hoax. Because of that it appears the authorities were looking for any reason to raid the compound and when the chance came they jumped at it prematurely & now the mess that's left will cloud any investigation that follows.

    I'm sure CPS had the best of intentions but in their eagerness they seem to have jumped the gun and over stepped their boundaries or as the court ruling said 'abused their discretion'.

    If the written reports of the mental health workers drafted in to help are accurate then yes, there's more of a problem here than just the FLDS.
    This is defintely an interesting case isnt it Blaize? I know it has had my heart from the beginning. I have gathered from other posts that you have made in other threads that you are a great advocate for women and children. So am I. I think we all want the same thing for these children and that is the very best.
    The world is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
    Bertrand Russell

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
    And back in danger, I fear...
    I agree... foster care has a terrible track record, even though some foster parents are wonderful. I hope they do not end up in foster care.

  13. #43
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    From Wendy McElroy, raging feminist, which I am not but here's her point of view

    http://www.wendymcelroy.com/news.php?extend.1577

    I don't like the FLDS religious sect. I think the ideology that they inculcate into children is worse than drek -- it is dangerous to their intellectual and emotional well-being. But how is this different from families in which the parents are fundamentalist Christian or raving Marxists or radically Muslim? Are we going to have a State-imposed purity test for ideology before allowing parents to raise their children? Unless and until there is clear evidence of physical abuse, no third party has any business using force to step between a parent and a child. PERIOD.

    The FLDS is one of those litmus tests by which you can separate true libertarians (who believe that rights apply to ALL individuals) from those who believe rights apply only to the nice people of the world. You know, OUR sort. Well...the FLDS is not my sort. It is not in the next county from being my sort. But each individual member of the FLDS has the same right to freedom of speech, freedom of religion, etc. etc. as I do.
    Last edited by Glow; 06-08-2008 at 09:39 PM.
    The world is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
    Bertrand Russell

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glow View Post
    From Wendy McElroy, raging feminest, which I am not but here's her point of view

    http://www.wendymcelroy.com/news.php?extend.1577

    I don't like the FLDS religious sect. I think the ideology that they inculcate into children is worse than drek -- it is dangerous to their intellectual and emotional well-being. But how is this different from families in which the parents are fundamentalist Christian or raving Marxists or radically Muslim? Are we going to have a State-imposed purity test for ideology before allowing parents to raise their children? Unless and until there is clear evidence of physical abuse, no third party has any business using force to step between a parent and a child. PERIOD.

    The FLDS is one of those litmus tests by which you can separate true libertarians (who believe that rights apply to ALL individuals) from those who believe rights apply only to the nice people of the world. You know, OUR sort. Well...the FLDS is not my sort. It is not in the next county from being my sort. But each individual member of the FLDS has the same right to freedom of speech, freedom of religion, etc. etc. as I do.
    But the Supreme Court has already ruled that a religion cannot trump the laws of the land. You cannot commit murder in the name of religion and be exempt from prosecution. Neither can you commit child abuse in the name of religion and be exempt from prosecution. Those laws take precidence over religious "freedom." And when the rights of a child are pited against the rights of an adult, the child should be given preference. A bunch of horney old men cannot rape a child and call it "religious teaching."

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by PSUfan View Post
    I agree... foster care has a terrible track record, even though some foster parents are wonderful. I hope they do not end up in foster care.
    I hope they do. At least the ones in danger. But I also hope it is in a loving foster care environment and not a "Mrs. Hannigan" type.

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