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  1. #46
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    Apr 2008
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    64
    Well, Glow, we'll just have to agree to disagree then.

    I find it impossible to believe that they are not brainwashed when a young mother stands there WITH her husband and tells the media that she believes Warren Jeffs is "perfect in every way". That is not a free-thinker. But then, her information was always vetted by the men in that cult.

    As for Doran worrying about his job...I seriously doubt he's as worried as you seem to believe. The FLDS members still have to face possible criminal charges and voting him out won't automatically insure day-to-day acceptance by the rest of the county population. Playing dirty politics with votes will ultimately undermine any revenge they may desire today.

  2. #47
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    2,551
    Assuming standard examinations for child abuse have been conducted, the FLDS children have been subject to genital exams and in some cases may have been subjected to manual penetration.


    Many FLDS children have been placed in foster homes. Foster parents have been referred by DFPS to its Cultural Awareness Guide for Children from Eldorado. In this guide, the department makes the following unsubstantiated statement:

    "Children [from the YFZ Ranch] are socialized to believe that sexual activity with adults is positive."

    We have no idea how many damaging conversations are now being held between the children and foster parents regarding child/adult sexual activity.

    http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/05/post_14.html
    The world is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
    Bertrand Russell

  3. #48
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
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    2,551
    Quote Originally Posted by mykodiak View Post
    Well, Glow, we'll just have to agree to disagree then.

    Nothing wrong with that, right?

    I have enjoyed posting with you and hearing your thoughts.
    The world is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
    Bertrand Russell

  4. #49
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    southeastern PA
    Posts
    689
    Quote Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
    I hope they do. At least the ones in danger. But I also hope it is in a loving foster care environment and not a "Mrs. Hannigan" type.
    The ones not in danger had no reason to be taken from their mothers.. If we were to yank "potentially in danger" children from families, we would be clearing out every inner city family in the country, and lots of upperclass ones as well. (see myspace youngsters). But I agree with you otherwise.

    I know our hearts are in the right place here.

  5. #50
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    Aug 2003
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    2,551
    Report: Texas had secret plan to seize kids, moms and then separate them

    http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9477021
    The world is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
    Bertrand Russell

  6. #51
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
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    16,021
    Quote Originally Posted by Glow View Post
    I know. I was suprised and heartened by that. I knew from the first days that there was no way that this was going to hold up, but my fear was that these children would be trapped in mid space for years while the courts wrangled. At least now the kids are out of the middle and the wrangling can proceed!
    I am amazed at the speed with which this happened! I too felt this was going to drag out forever and harm more children and families in the process.

  7. #52
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
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    16,021
    Quote Originally Posted by Glow View Post
    Report: Texas had secret plan to seize kids, moms and then separate them

    http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9477021
    WOW! Again, thank God for a Court with a clue.

  8. #53
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
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    16,021
    Quote Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
    I just want to know if everyone who believes the FLDS over the CPS, have you read anything by the former FLDS? I don't think you can form an educated opinion without reading/watching one or more of the following:

    "Escape" by Carolyn Jessop
    "Under the Banner of Heaven" by John Krakauer
    "Banking on Heaven" by Laurie Allen (DVD)
    "Stolen Innocence" by Elissa Wall
    Flora Jessop Autobiography, http://helpthechildbrides.com/storie...sopautobio.htm
    Personal stories - Experiences from polygamy, http://helpthechildbrides.com/stories.htm

    I think many of you are putting your own personal feelings as a mother onto these women. Unfortunately most of these FLDS women are brainwashed into believing their children belong to the cult and are not their own to raise. This results in distancing any love they may have had, and not having the normal bonding that we have as parents of our children.

    I believe we all have the best interests of the children at heart, but some of you believe it is best for the children to continue to be raised in this cult, while others like me think it is best for the children to be deprogramed away from the influence of the cult.
    I have read Under the Banner of Heaven (twice) and Jessop's autobiography as well as several of the personal stories at that last link. The FLDS do things that I don't consider right and, like most folks looking to protect their self interests, everything that comes out of their mouths is probably not the whole truth. That said, I absolutely believe that CPS behaved very very badly.

    Should we hold members of an extremely powerful agency entrusted with caring for and protecting innocents to a higher standard of truth, compassion, care and kindness than members of a "fringe cult" group who have been unjustly ripped from their homes? Maybe!

  9. #54
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    1,332
    There's no maybe about it SCM, we should absolutely hold Government agencies, and the institutions of State and Law to a very high standard.

    After all part of the covenant we have between governments and people in the democratic countries of the west is that we accept the rule of law in return for just laws and fair & equitable treatment of everyone.


    Quote Originally Posted by southcitymom View Post
    I have read Under the Banner of Heaven (twice) and Jessop's autobiography as well as several of the personal stories at that last link. The FLDS do things that I don't consider right and, like most folks looking to protect their self interests, everything that comes out of their mouths is probably not the whole truth. That said, I absolutely believe that CPS behaved very very badly.

    Should we hold members of an extremely powerful agency entrusted with caring for and protecting innocents to a higher standard of truth, compassion, care and kindness than members of a "fringe cult" group who have been unjustly ripped from their homes? Maybe!

  10. #55
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    2,551
    A well written article on polygamy.

    http://poligazette.com/2008/06/03/the-other-polygamy/
    The world is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
    Bertrand Russell


  11. #56
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    Jun 2005
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
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    16,021
    Quote Originally Posted by blaize View Post
    There's no maybe about it SCM, we should absolutely hold Government agencies, and the institutions of State and Law to a very high standard.

    After all part of the covenant we have between governments and people in the democratic countries of the west is that we accept the rule of law in return for just laws and fair & equitable treatment of everyone.
    I agree, blaize - so much! My maybe was supposed to be tongue-in-cheek, but there's no icon!!

  12. #57
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    2,551
    Who is Rozita Swinton?
    Rozita was placed in Tennessee's foster care system at 14.
    Rozita had reported that her father had sexually abused her and she remained afraid of him, the state said.
    After turning 19, Swinton lived with a Tennessee woman who was caring for foster children. "One of the counselors working with [Rozita] knew me and called to ask if I would take her in," the woman wrote in her book, After Disclosure, under the pen name Kate Rosemary.
    in her book, she wrote Rozita, who also rejected interview requests, was "tragically abused" and had been diagnosed with multiple personality disorder.
    http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9439383
    The world is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
    Bertrand Russell

  13. #58
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    Aug 2003
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    2,551
    Flora Jessop to Rozita after the raid:

    "You got a bunch of people getting searched over a bunch of lies, honey. You've got to understand that's not all right."

    http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9439392
    The world is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
    Bertrand Russell

  14. #59
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    Aug 2003
    Posts
    2,551
    Offshoot polygamous Mormon sects are about as popular in West Texas as neo-Nazis are in Skokie. Texas law was changed in 2005, raising the marriage age to 16 from 14 explicitly to target polygamous sects. The police watched the sect’s compound, the Yearning for Zion Ranch, like hawks, but were stymied by a lack of evidence. What they needed was an outcry, a credible victim’s complaint.
    In early April, they conveniently got one in the form of a phone call to a local abuse hot line...
    In their first incursion, to search for “Sarah,” the S.W.A.T.-like team ransacked the place, scared the children and scooped up books, records, bibles and photographs. With the new evidence in hand, they got a second search warrant the next day that allowed them to take into custody all children on the ranch, of all ages and both genders, and to place them, at least temporarily, in foster care.
    Nearly all of the mothers were separated from their children, the only exceptions being a handful of nursing mothers with infants under 12 months. Siblings were separated from each other and placed in different foster care locations hundreds of miles apart, making it impossible for many mothers regularly to see their children, a fact that was reported in the local press in Texas and Utah weeks before it made it into The New York Times.
    The state painted all of the members of the community with the same broad brush. Individualized hearings, the state argued to the appellate court, would have taken “weeks or even months and would have been an extraordinary waste of judicial resources.”
    In other words, why bother? They are all guilty.
    In the intermediate appellate court, and in its appeal to the Texas Supreme Court, the state has baldly argued what appears to be the only evidence it really has against the mothers: their appalling religion.
    Well, that is just not enough. In America, we punish conduct, not belief systems.
    And by the way, the “Sarah” call was a hoax. She is apparently a troubled woman in Colorado Springs with a history of making such calls. Texas authorities don’t deny that, but they say it does not matter because, in effect, the ends justified the means.
    Not always, and not this time.
    Kathleen Peratis, a partner at the New York law firm Outten & Golden, is a board member emerita of Human Rights Watch.
    http://www.forward.com/articles/13462/
    The world is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
    Bertrand Russell

  15. #60
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    2,551
    Are any of you readers/posters here feminists? Is our duty to our gender to support only when we approve of the choice a woman is making, or is it our duty to support her right to chose?

    This case in Texas seems to be causing a lot of angst for feminists. Some, like Gloria Allred, decry the FLDS as keeping women subject through the practice of polygamy. Others disagree

    Interesting reading at this link

    http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9374627?IAD...www.sltrib.com

    But while feminists will defend battered women every time, they have been strangely silent since Texas child welfare agents first yanked 460 children from their mothers.
    I don't expect feminists to defend prostitution, pornography or the latest round of YouTube junior high catfights. So I'm not really surprised advocates for women's rights are reluctant to defend polygamy - certainly not the patriarchs and their complicitous wives, who teach their daughters to sweetly obey.
    In my mind, a feminist defends every other woman's right to choose, no matter how repugnant the choice - posing for Playboy, sleeping with New York's governor for money or joining the WWF. At the very least, I hoped feminists would defend the FLDS women's right to keep their children while the state investigated.

    But polygamy leaves feminists conflicted.

    Feminists, now is your chance to speak up.
    The world is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
    Bertrand Russell

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