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  1. #1
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    Angry Evidence of Torture used at Gitmo, Abu Ghraib

    So much for the idea that Abu Ghraib was an anomaly...
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080618/...wJAJ1_0ZOs0NUE

    I want to be clear that the former prisoners were released without charges-so the idea that they were high level enemy combatants who were giving information of critical importance is suspect...

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by believe09 View Post
    So much for the idea that Abu Ghraib was an anomaly...
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080618/...wJAJ1_0ZOs0NUE

    I want to be clear that the former prisoners were released without charges-so the idea that they were high level enemy combatants who were giving information of critical importance is suspect...
    Certainly makes a person proud to be an American these days, doesn't it? IMO Bush and Cheney should be tried for war crimes.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trino View Post
    Certainly makes a person proud to be an American these days, doesn't it? IMO Bush and Cheney should be tried for war crimes.
    Why? Were they there?

    I don't mean to be callous, but some of these allegations of "torture" are stretching it pretty far. One guy claims to have been sodomized but won't allow a medical exam, so who knows if it is true? Who knows if one of his fellow prisoners did it and he is blaming it on the soldiers? Or maybe it is true, but one case does not make a pattern of abuse that goes all the way to the commander in chief.

    The other 3 sexual accusations were "anal probes" (hello? Cavity search?) or being "threatened with rape." I think we've all watched enough TV shows to imagine an interrogation technique where it is suggested that the suspect might be put in jail with the general population and what might happen there. Is that a crime? If so, handcuff our police force b/c I think they might make those same suggestions when trying to convince a suspect to confess.

    This paragraph from the link above probably made John McCain laugh out loud:

    The abuse of some prisoners by their American captors is well documented by the government's own reports. Once-secret documents show that the Pentagon and Justice Department allowed, at least for a time, forced nakedness, isolation, sleep deprivation and humiliation at both Guantanamo Bay Naval Base and at Abu Ghraib.

    Wow. I'd much rather be beaten and starved near to death.

    Of course, this one isn't until the bottom of the article:

    Because the medical examiners did not have access to the 11 patients' medical histories prior to their imprisonment, it was not possible to know whether any of the prisoners' ailments, disabilities and scars pre-dated their confinement. The U.S. military says an al-Qaida training manual instructs members, if captured, to assert they were tortured during interrogation.

  4. #4
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    Of course the Gitmo detainees are/were tortured. That is the entire purpose of the Gitmo facility -- so that the US can bypass international laws.

    While I have little concern about individuals who truly are terrorists, the major problem with Gitmo is that there is no trial and no proof that any of the detainees are terrorists or that they did ANYTHING wrong. According to the American justice system, if you are Arab you are a terrorist and subject to torture. It is despicable!

    "Road to Guantanamo" is based on a true story of young British men who traveled to Afghanistan via Pakistan for a family wedding at the time of the US invasion of Afghanistan and ended up spending years as detainees at Gitmo. The farce was eventually revealed but not all made it home alive.
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0468094/

  5. #5
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    angelmom, not to dispute that there is a possibility that the detainees are following instructions, but doesn't the article mention that examines have verified abuse?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trino View Post
    angelmom, not to dispute that there is a possibility that the detainees are following instructions, but doesn't the article mention that examines have verified abuse?
    One Iraqi prisoner, identified only as Yasser
    Another Iraqi, identified only as Rahman

    Yeah sorry, hurting their feelings and making them uncomfortable, really doesn't qualify as torture to me.

  7. #7
    They were tortured! Believe it!

    Cheney and Bush do need to be tried for war crimes and then hanged!

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karole28 View Post
    One Iraqi prisoner, identified only as Yasser
    Another Iraqi, identified only as Rahman

    Yeah sorry, hurting their feelings and making them uncomfortable, really doesn't qualify as torture to me.

    I'm with you Karole....at least not when they behead innocent civilians like Nick Berg....no comparison in my book!

    I just saw Lyndie England the other day at our local video store. She is from the same small town that I live in. She walks around with her head down, not making eye contact because she is unsure what people around here think of her. I smiled at her and said hello. She smiled back. I feel sorry for her because, imo, she really was fed to the wolves for something that she was told to do......

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by ember View Post
    I'm with you Karole....at least not when they behead innocent civilians like Nick Berg....no comparison in my book!
    THEY???? Not everyone beheaded Nick Berg. If someone is innocent, they should have an opportunity to defend themselves.

    Try this story:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_El-Masri

    It is my understanding that there were detainees that were actually spies for America that were turned in as insurgents by our enemies. We detained abused and detained these guys w/o any opportunity to defend themselves.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by ember View Post
    I'm with you Karole....at least not when they behead innocent civilians like Nick Berg....no comparison in my book!

    I just saw Lyndie England the other day at our local video store. She is from the same small town that I live in. She walks around with her head down, not making eye contact because she is unsure what people around here think of her. I smiled at her and said hello. She smiled back. I feel sorry for her because, imo, she really was fed to the wolves for something that she was told to do......
    Yeah, I can imagine she'll never be the same person she was before that happened. My sympathy to her.


    I just cannot get too worked up over the "humiliation" and "scare tactics" outlined in this article.

    What does get me worked up is that people refer to it as torture.
    ""They took off even my underwear. They asked me to do some movements that make me look in a very bad way so they can take photographs. ... They were trying to make me look like an animal," Laith told examiners, according to the report"

    ============================

    Oh nooooes! Not an animal!


    Yeah sorry, can't work up any outrage here.


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trino View Post
    THEY???? Not everyone beheaded Nick Berg. If someone is innocent, they should have an opportunity to defend themselves.

    Try this story:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_El-Masri
    That's a sad story. Unfortunately the same thing has happened in American courts (innocents imprisoned) thankfully, he got sorted out.

    It is my understanding that there were detainees that were actually spies for America that were turned in as insurgents by our enemies. We detained abused and detained these guys w/o any opportunity to defend themselves.
    Link or it didn't happen.

  12. #12
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    I don't really understand the outrage here - they are being treated better than an American would be if they were accused of a crime in their country? Or even if they were accused? The presumption of innocence does not exist in all countries.

  13. #13
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    I knew when I posted the story that since there were not videos included of the abuses with USA Servicemen participating in the abuse, that it would be a sufficient out for some in terms of the story's authenticity. I am extremely familiar with the Physicians group that did the exams, and to a physician they have been beyond reproach and objective. If this were a finding against Al Quaida then there would be hot moral outrage here that would be overwhelming.

    I started the thread because I think it is a great byline to the Supreme Court's ruling on the writ of habeus corpus for these folks. My expectation is that there will be large releases of some of these prisoners prior to any documentation of evidence or charges-they will be put on a plane home, the documents will be destroyed or lost and the price of their freedom will be either their silence or being smeared as to the accuracy of what they are reporting.

    JMO

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trino View Post
    THEY???? Not everyone beheaded Nick Berg. If someone is innocent, they should have an opportunity to defend themselves.

    Try this story:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_El-Masri

    It is my understanding that there were detainees that were actually spies for America that were turned in as insurgents by our enemies. We detained abused and detained these guys w/o any opportunity to defend themselves.
    True torture I do not agree with at all, but I don't believe that humiliation and intimidation count as torture as far as I'm concerned. That is what I was stating. It's my opinion.

    And no, not everyone beheaded Nick Berg or Daniel Pearle or Paul Johnson but for the most part, they are worse than animals over there...they behead their own women for their desire to make free choices....so you'll have to excuse me if I don't think that that pushing them around a bit is a crime.

    Does anyone remember that some of these "people" who have screamed foul ATTACKED OUR COUNTRY and would like to see us all dead????
    Sorry to say but I really don't give a d*mn about their rights!!!

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by lew657 View Post
    I don't really understand the outrage here - they are being treated better than an American would be if they were accused of a crime in their country? Or even if they were accused? The presumption of innocence does not exist in all countries.
    Are ya kidding me? Would that hold water for you if you were the prisoner or the parent of one? "Quit yer b**chin while I up the volts; imagine how bad you would have it if you weren't being held by the USA..."????

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