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View Poll Results: What do you believe about the FLDS? You can choose as many answers as you want to.

Voters
126. You may not vote on this poll
  • The CPS raid was excessive

    16 12.70%
  • The CPS raid did more harm than good

    9 7.14%
  • The CPS raid did more good than harm

    46 36.51%
  • CPS should continue to monitor the FLDS

    108 85.71%
  • There is no abuse inside the YFZ ranch

    2 1.59%
  • Abuse is limited to a few isolated cases inside the YFZ ranch

    5 3.97%
  • The men are the only abusers in the YFZ ranch

    9 7.14%
  • The women are the only abusers in the YFZ ranch

    0 0%
  • The men and women are abusers in the YFZ ranch

    76 60.32%
  • Waterboarding exists

    37 29.37%
  • Babies are killed, sometimes due to being born with disabilities

    57 45.24%
  • The children have had excessive broken bones due to abuse

    42 33.33%
  • Lost boys are kicked out of the the ranch with no where to go

    107 84.92%
  • women always get to choose who they marry

    0 0%
  • women sometimes get to choose who they marry

    14 11.11%
  • women are assigned to a husband but can say no

    10 7.94%
  • women are assigned to a husband and have no choice

    100 79.37%
  • spouses and children can be taken from a husband and reassigned

    96 76.19%
  • generally speaking, men only have sex with people they are "married" to

    26 20.63%
  • any girl may be raped at any time

    33 26.19%
  • the women generally feel free

    13 10.32%
  • the women generally feel forced into their situations

    56 44.44%
  • the education system is sufficient

    5 3.97%
  • the FLDS are using silence to protect known abusers

    109 86.51%
  • rumored abuse aside, the FLDS lifestyle has many benefits for those that choose that lifestyle

    9 7.14%
  • The FLDS environment is generally peaceful

    15 11.90%
Multiple Choice Poll.

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Results 31 to 37 of 37
  1. #31
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
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    NYC to SW
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    1,018
    Quote Originally Posted by daisy.faithfull View Post
    I don't understand why they can't be charged with human trafficking, but I suppose that the children are not technically forced to do these things and the parents I'm sure give their consent.
    I'm sure they can be charged with human trafficking and a myriad of other offenses. The problem for LE is obtaining actual evidence of a crime. People can't be arrested just because we assume they are committing a crime. Also, witnesses are needed and, as we all know, FLDS members refuse to come forward.

    Regarding parents giving consent, a parent cannot give consent if the consent means breaking the law. They can't consent to allowing their child to be raped, for example. And, yes, the children are being forced because by law under age children cannot give consent.

  2. #32
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Raleigh NC
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    10,383
    Quote Originally Posted by daisy.faithfull View Post
    I don't understand why they can't be charged with human trafficking, but I suppose that the children are not technically forced to do these things and the parents I'm sure give their consent.

    It is difficult for me to understand the whole "our hands are tied" thing. Here in AZ there are things that could've and should've been investigated but it doesn't happen because their hands are tied. Politicians have a history of being intimidated and looking the other way. So when I hear that LE's hands are tied what it really means is they are looking the other way.

    As far as the inbreeding is concerned, my mom worked for a pediatrician ('00 to '05 that specialized in difficult pregnancies. Many of the mothers were giving birth to babies with severe birth defects over and over because of course they don't believe in birth control. Of course all of the medical care was free since as "single" mothers they were given the state funded insurance. Those benefits have been cut back, and I was hopeful that we wouldn't be footing the bill for these people. Unfortunatly single mothers will still receive both the insurance and food stamp benefits.
    BBM
    Some good thoughts, daisy.faithfull -

    On the first BBM sentence in your post, Carolyn Jessop, on the night before she was to be "married," was initially told by her parents that she would be getting married to Jessop the next day. As she explained in her book, Escape, on that night, she had to sleep in her mother's bed with her mother. She wrote that this sleeping arrangement was a regular custom for FLDS brides-to-be. She further said it was mainly because the parents and the "groom" did not want the "bride" to run away after receiving the news. (Can you imagine?) So indeed, she was quietly and privately "married" the next day. She was 18 y/o, so this could not be prosecuted as trafficking. But I think you raise a good point because not every "bride" is of legal age. And with marriages of girls not of legal age, if the "groom" is already married, it is indeed trafficking. Period. IMO....

    Re the other two BBM sentences: We have heard & heard & heard in news accounts and other reliable sources about these poor FLDS "wives" who follow the 1st (and ONLY) legal wife -- how they live in a state of poverty or near-poverty, and are given medical services and food stamps (and probably WIC as well) free of charge, as you said, because the "wives" have no jobs and no source of income. I hope that these poor "wives" are the exception and not the rule, but I have no idea and I'm skeptical.)

    First of all, this is a travesty against the women & probably many children, that they should have to live that way -- and using the gov't and LEO's to go after these deadbeat dads would never do for many reasons... And of course it's unfair to all the rest of "us" who pay our taxes year after year. (I am a flaming liberal, but there it is.) No wonder the illegal wives compete like sprinters to gain favor with the husband. Carolyn Jessop said that although she hated having sex with that man, she did so to gain favor. Little wonder -- that's all the currency she had.

    Anyway, I've had my rant. What CAN be done if, as you say -- and I'm certainly not disagreeing with anything you posted -- their "hands are tied"? Grrrrrrr. ..... ...... ....

    End of rant.


    All posts, unless attributed, are "just my humble opinion," and they are to remain here in Websleuths and are not to be used elsewhere. Thank you.
    _________________


    This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England.
    William Shakespeare, King Richard II



    The Angel of the Waters, Bethesda Terrace, Central Park, New York City

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    8
    LDS, like some other male dominated "religious cults," is nothing more than a way for horny older guys to have multiple sexual partners. It is amazing to me that anyone takes any part of Mormonism seriously. Modern Mormonism attempts to shed it's history of being founded and operated by horny, manipulative older men who fabricated a "religion" to get to have sex with more women.

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    2,551
    First let me say welcome to the board wilco as I see this wasy your 5th post


    Quote Originally Posted by wilco View Post
    _____, like some other male dominated _________," is nothing more than a way for horny older guys to have multiple sexual partners. It is amazing to me that anyone takes any part of ________ seriously.
    I took out the word Mormon and was struck by how well the word Senator or Congressmen or President would work in filling in those same blanks!
    The world is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
    Bertrand Russell

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    2,551
    Quote Originally Posted by CathyR View Post
    Define the difference between a cult and a church and religion still has an equal voice and cults are not tax exempt entities.

    We can't outlaw them, it is the right of an individual to belong to a cult if they so desire. We can however define the difference and remove their tax exempt status. This is not a government interference as Congress shall not make any laws in regards to religion. It is a revision of the tax code to define what makes a church or non profit organization that enjoys tax exempt status.

    Example: A cult does not allow for it's members to own anything. Anything they own or possess is required by the cult leaders to be turned over for the good of the cult.
    Then where does that leave the Amish? The Mennonites? The Catholic nuns and priests who take a vow of poverty?



    Quote Originally Posted by CathyR View Post
    A cult uses the same tactics seen in domestic violence. Isolate the members from other members of society and even close relationships as those with parents, siblings and other relatives must be given up in order to a member.
    A cult will justify breaking the law as their right and they are for whatever reason they make the members believe they are above the law or exempt from the law. .
    Well in the case of the FLDS in Texas, the law allowed for any girl living in Texas as young as 14 to marry as recently as 2005. It seems if that was morally improper and a bad idea then, passing a law isnt going to hold much sway over a church group that believe their holy book and their "God" are a higher law. It still amazes me that until as recently as 2005 Texas law and the FLDS were on the same page marriage wise

    Quote Originally Posted by CathyR View Post
    A cult will use any means possible to punish members for questioning their authority or balking at any of it's rules..
    I cant think of anything more punishing than convincing believers that they will burn in hell forever for such transgressions as being fat or lazy (2 of the 7 deadly sins) and yet that is what one VERY large mainstream religion teaches.


    Quote Originally Posted by CathyR View Post
    A cult operates in secret and asks it's members to not discuss their views, values and tenets with anyone outside of the cult.
    A cult has closed services that do not allow for outside examination unless the people attending services have been fully indoctrinated.
    A cult will devise ways to strip away a person's ability to make their own decisions and asks it's members to give up their individuality, civil rights, and constitutionally mandated rights.

    A church does not do any of the above.
    Churches do exactly all of the above in varying degrees. Thats what makes it such a two edged sword. I agree with what you are saying in the spirit in which you seem to mean it. It seems you would like some regulation of the damage that religions like we are discussing on this thread can do.

    Problem is every regulation comes with its own problems. The last thing we need is our over burdened government trying to be the watch dog over religion. For one thing, people wouldnt tolerate it. Religion has always had a shadow twin of fanaticism. No government can take that on and win.

    Its been tried. Thats where we get men like John Calvin and Martin Luther.

    The sad fact is that maniacal pedophile religious leaders are found in every religion. Warren Jeffs is just one among them.
    The world is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
    Bertrand Russell

  6. #36
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Raleigh NC
    Posts
    10,383
    Quote Originally Posted by Cracka*Jaxx View Post
    I'm sure they can be charged with human trafficking and a myriad of other offenses. The problem for LE is obtaining actual evidence of a crime. People can't be arrested just because we assume they are committing a crime. Also, witnesses are needed and, as we all know, FLDS members refuse to come forward.

    Regarding parents giving consent, a parent cannot give consent if the consent means breaking the law. They can't consent to allowing their child to be raped, for example. And, yes, the children are being forced because by law under age children cannot give consent.
    Good post, Cracka -- If this isn't trafficking, I don't know what is -- there is probably no $$ involved (maybe other favors for the offering parents since it's very good to be able to place your too-young nubile daughter with a "groom" that is in high regard in the closed community -- that's how it was for C. Jessop).

    And your remarks about consent were spot-on. No need to say more -- your words were well-said and just plain fact.

    Shame, shame on all of them. It is truly despicable. Some of those parents who offer their daughters into such situations are treating those girls like a head of cattle or a good work horse, IMO. Yes, it's the tradition and it's how things are done, but it's not Christian (AS IF...) and it's just plain wrong. ..... .... JMHO


    All posts, unless attributed, are "just my humble opinion," and they are to remain here in Websleuths and are not to be used elsewhere. Thank you.
    _________________


    This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England.
    William Shakespeare, King Richard II



    The Angel of the Waters, Bethesda Terrace, Central Park, New York City

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    78
    Quote Originally Posted by Glow View Post
    Then where does that leave the Amish? The Mennonites? The Catholic nuns and priests who take a vow of poverty?





    Well in the case of the FLDS in Texas, the law allowed for any girl living in Texas as young as 14 to marry as recently as 2005. It seems if that was morally improper and a bad idea then, passing a law isnt going to hold much sway over a church group that believe their holy book and their "God" are a higher law. It still amazes me that until as recently as 2005 Texas law and the FLDS were on the same page marriage wise



    I cant think of anything more punishing than convincing believers that they will burn in hell forever for such transgressions as being fat or lazy (2 of the 7 deadly sins) and yet that is what one VERY large mainstream religion teaches.




    Churches do exactly all of the above in varying degrees. Thats what makes it such a two edged sword. I agree with what you are saying in the spirit in which you seem to mean it. It seems you would like some regulation of the damage that religions like we are discussing on this thread can do.

    Problem is every regulation comes with its own problems. The last thing we need is our over burdened government trying to be the watch dog over religion. For one thing, people wouldnt tolerate it. Religion has always had a shadow twin of fanaticism. No government can take that on and win.

    Its been tried. Thats where we get men like John Calvin and Martin Luther.

    The sad fact is that maniacal pedophile religious leaders are found in every religion. Warren Jeffs is just one among them.
    That's true that churches do some things, as in the mainstream LDS church which banned polygamy for over a century has temples that are only open to members in good standing who have met the requirements by living the lifestyle. Members are forbidden to discuss what goes on in those temples, as it's considered too sacred, and if a convert gets married in the temple, the convert's family is not allowed to witness the actual wedding ceremony. There's nothing wrong with that in my opinion as they have the right to practice their religion as they see fit.


    Anything I post here is my opinion.

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