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  1. #1
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    Is a burqa incompatible with French nationality?

    France has denied citizenship to a veiled Moroccan woman on the grounds that her 'radical' Islam is incompatible with French values, a legal ruling revealed.
    The case will re-ignite debate about how to reconcile religious freedom with other rights, which many in France feel are being challenged by the way of life of some Muslims.
    Le Monde newspaper said it is the first time a Muslim applicant had been rejected because of personal religious practice.
    'She has adopted a radical practice of her religion, incompatible with essential values of the French community, particularly the principle of equality of the sexes,' said a ruling by the Council of State.


    More: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worl...ous-views.html

    I forsee the Court of Human Rights getting involved with this.

  2. #2
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    They'd only get involved if it was America. Other countries are allowed to do this sort of thing.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeana (DP) View Post
    They'd only get involved if it was America. Other countries are allowed to do this sort of thing.
    Actually not so. the court gets involved with European cases too.

    ETA: European Court of Human Rights: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europea...f_Human_Rights

  4. #4
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    I don't care who gets involved! I say GOOD FOR FRANCE! I think this disrespect of women and all we do and stand for is nonsense. Maybe that issue should be taken to the Court of Human Rights. Who are Muslims to tell women that they are worthless? And yes, that is what they say and do. Husbands are allowed to knock women around, require them to wear whatever, not let them work, set them on fire if they want, beat them for getting raped, etc. etc.

    If this goes to the Court of Human Rights, I will write a friend of the court paper or whatever they call those opinions clearly stating that condoning the practice of oppressing women is much more harmful to the world at large and its economies then denying someone citizenship based on their practice of discrimination against women!

    Salem

  5. #5
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    What exactly are "French values"?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeana (DP) View Post
    What exactly are "French values"?
    You'd have to ask the French!

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    I don't care who gets involved! I say GOOD FOR FRANCE! I think this disrespect of women and all we do and stand for is nonsense. Maybe that issue should be taken to the Court of Human Rights. Who are Muslims to tell women that they are worthless? And yes, that is what they say and do. Husbands are allowed to knock women around, require them to wear whatever, not let them work, set them on fire if they want, beat them for getting raped, etc. etc.

    If this goes to the Court of Human Rights, I will write a friend of the court paper or whatever they call those opinions clearly stating that condoning the practice of oppressing women is much more harmful to the world at large and its economies then denying someone citizenship based on their practice of discrimination against women!

    Salem
    Salem, I agree with your thinking; however, I don't see that the French are "involved." All they did was stamp a form "rejected." Hardly earth shattering.

  8. #8
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    France has a very socialistic approach in their thinking. They believe everyone is equal and therefore a belief system which segregates one into a special group with a special way of living is incompatible with their way of living. This of course is only a guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chloekins View Post
    France has a very socialistic approach in their thinking. They believe everyone is equal and therefore a belief system which segregates one into a special group with a special way of living is incompatible with their way of living. This of course is only a guess.
    This must be a new view. What about all of the Muslim women who are already there?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeana (DP) View Post
    Salem, I agree with your thinking; however, I don't see that the French are "involved." All they did was stamp a form "rejected." Hardly earth shattering.
    Agreed Jeana - unless it does get pushed in the courts. Sometimes it is a small, unnoticed event that starts a ball rolling down a course that becomes bigger and much more important than the little event that got it started. (If that makes sense.)

    I was really just taking an opportunity to rant about the oppression of women under the guise of religion. While I believe in some differences between the sexes, I do not believe in opression or violence against any gender, young or old, just make some other "class" feel like they are in control.

    Salem


  11. #11
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    The article said this was the "first time" an applicant had been rejected for these reasons. France has an ongoing problem (problem is probably not the right word) with some of the Muslim practices, IIRC.

    Salem

  12. #12
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    Jeana (DP) "This must be a new view. What about all of the Muslim women who are already there?" I think it has more to do with the curbing of immigrant population in the future. I know that France has had some lawsuits in the past concerning whether or not religious garb can be worn in uniformed schools and things such as that. It could be that France is taking an active stance on what will and will not be allowed in their country in the future. France has always been a very uniformed country and very lax about immigration. In the past if you recognized yourself as french then that was enough to be considered patriotic. I think things have changed in that people are not longer considering themselves french they muslims who happen to be living in france. I of course could be completely wrong but this seems to me to be an attempt to establish past french ideals.

  13. #13
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    More from the link in Floh's post No. 1:

    In the past, nationality was denied to Muslims who were known to have links with extremist circles or who had publicly advocated radicalism, which is not the case here.

    The ruling comes weeks after a heated debate over whether traditional Muslim views were creeping into French law, prompted by a court annulment of the marriage of two Muslims because the husband said the wife was not a virgin as she had claimed to be.

    In the case of the Moroccan woman, Le Monde suggested the Council of State had gone to the opposite extreme by rejecting the woman's beliefs and way of life rather than accommodating them.

    "Is a burqa incompatible with French nationality?" the newspaper asked.

    The legal expert who provided a formal report on the case to the Council of State wrote that the woman's interviews with social services revealed that "she lives almost as a recluse, isolated from French society," Le Monde reported.

    "She has no idea about the secular state or the right to vote. She lives in total submission to her male relatives.

    She seems to find this normal and the idea of challenging it has never crossed her mind," Emmanuelle Prada-Bordenave wrote.

    Le Monde quoted Daniele Lochak, a law professor not involved in the case, as saying it was bizarre to consider that excessive submission to men was a reason not to grant citizenship.

    "If you follow that to its logical conclusion, it means that women whose partners beat them are also not worthy of being French.'


    I think the last line of Le Monde's quote misses the point. The point is that it is harmful to society to condone beatings by husbands. Many Muslims believe that husbands have the right to be violent towards their wives. The more pervasive this thought, the harder it would be for a woman to stop the violence, in or out of court.

    It has taken years to get mainstream society to understand that violence is a bad thing and that husbands should not be allowed to hit their wives. Just think back to the 60s and 70s here in America. Allowing such thinking back into our societies is harmful - to all women and children, in my opinion.

    Salem

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    Agreed Jeana - unless it does get pushed in the courts. Sometimes it is a small, unnoticed event that starts a ball rolling down a course that becomes bigger and much more important than the little event that got it started. (If that makes sense.)

    I was really just taking an opportunity to rant about the oppression of women under the guise of religion. While I believe in some differences between the sexes, I do not believe in opression or violence against any gender, young or old, just make some other "class" feel like they are in control.

    Salem
    I hope that it gets the ball rolling too. Although I can't see how this could be perceived by the Muslim community as anything, but one more reason to wipe the rest of us off the face of the earth.

  15. #15
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    Agreed again. At least it made the news and France is taking a stand. I am sure France is raising the ire of the Muslim communities and I sincerely hope France gets political support for the position it has taken.

    I know for us, here in the US, it is very difficult to take a stand, because we are taught freedom of religion. But..... this is much like the FLDS to me. Freedom of religion does not the right to rape and beat.

    Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world today (I read that somewhere) and I find that scary. Why are so many people finding the need to hide behind this oppression? I understand the male side of things, because they become all powerful, and we all like power, women included. But why so many women? Why do women not recognize how harmful it is for them? I think it has something to do with the same reasons smart, attactive, women will hook up with abusers and then stay after they realize the situation they are in.

    Salem

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