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  1. #1
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    Picking up where we left off

    This is to continue the discussion between myself, Jane Osa, Seahorse and anyone else interested.

    Originally posted by Jane Osa
    Well, no BBQ ribs, Superdave - since I'm in Alaska next to the ocean & it's fishing season I had plenty of smoked salmon and fresh (as in caught this afternoon) halibut & lots of happy tourists off the cruise ships & corny songs played live...
    Ah!

    I can agree that P. being in her same clothes isn't the height of bizarre weirdness, but, I'd also expect that she'd get herself into some silken nightgown and wrap herself in a cashmere robe in the morning before descending to make coffee & breakfast, etc. - however, if you are very tired & have a plane to catch, etc. maybe not (and who would arrange a flight that early the day after Christmas anyway? Where were they going?).
    Well, if Chuck Green's reporting is accurate, Patsy was never in bed that night. As for where they were going, they were headed to the family's summer home in Charlevoix Michigan to meet up with John's children from his first marriage where they'd head for Florida, I believe.

    I also agree people's memories are not all that reliable. If the Ramseys testified to begin with instead of waiting four months (as I understand) maybe their brains wouldn't be so foggy.
    Yeah, maybe!

    Maybe the reason they didn't cooperate is that they are very selfish - they wanted to protect themselves more than their dead child - that's inconceivable for most of us but inconceivable seems to be an apt word for most of their actions.
    I think that was part of it. I think it's more of an instance of not being able to help JB anymore, so you save the living. See, some people, including John Ramsey, have said that if Patsy killed JB, he'd have thrown her to the wolves. Yeah, sure. He's already lost one daughter from his previous marriage (who he admits he cared about more than JB), he's just lost JB, and we really expect him to lose Patsy, too? IMO (Big caveat there), he figured Patsy would die in prison. He probably blamed himself for not seeing the warning signs of danger and not saving JB when he had the chance, so in a sense, it was HE who killed her, and if he gave up Patsy, he'd kill her too, and in one day, his son Burke would have lost his sister AND his mother and would probably hate John for the rest of his life. Save the living. He claims to be a religious man. Maybe he figured that if he could save Patsy's life, she could repent and escape the flames of hell. (Not only that, but you have to remember one other thing. John had already been married once. That marriage ended when his wife found out he had cheated on her. He got caught. They ALWAYS get caught, because they think they won't. If he turned Patsy in, he'd have to admit that he screwed up his first marriage just to marry a monster. That's very hard for the fragile male ego to take. Trust me, I know.)


    So, what about lying about Burke during the 911 call? And the pineapple JBR ate (either their memory is 'faulty', they are lying, or JBR got up roaming the house & ate it or the person who eventually murdered her was someone she was completely comfortable with - enough to 'hang out' and eat pineapple with in the dining room) - ?
    I can see faulty memory, to a point. What makes the pineapple important is that they said JB was asleep when they got home and never woke up. The pineapple says that didn't happen. It could be completely innocent. Kids are always hungry. And JB hadn't eaten that much that day. Fleet White even made her a doggy bag to take home from his party. The kids could have been awake and wanted a bedtime snack. We know that John was going to help Burke work on his train set for a little while before bed. He may have called him. Burke left the room, Patsy takes a piece of pineapple from the bowl and says, "Here, honey. Don't tell your Daddy." Nothing wrong with that. My parents used to do that with us every now and then. If that happened, why not just say so? (It'd be a great story for a jury, wouldn't it?) JB may have been up and roaming the house, but from all accounts, she couldn't have reached the bowl on top of the counter. Someone HAD to get it for her. As for hanging out and eating it in the dining room, then what? He waited the two and a half hours it took to digest? I don't buy it.

    I don't recall anyone's opinions on how and why there is DNA of a male on leggings & underwear (skin & blood, right?) if you believe the R.s did it?
    No, it was JB's blood on the underwear, nobody elses. What you have to remember is DNA is EVERYWHERE, and it's extremely easy to get on a lot of things. The advances in DNA technology are wonderful, but a criminologist who talked about this case said it, so it's not just my opinion: the more sensitive it gets, the more likely it is to find irrelevant DNA. She used those very words, or may I be struck dead.

    I'd like to hear a theory on how it is there. I've heard ideas of it being 'old' or 'contaminated' or it could be anyone (!?!)
    That's what the criminologist said. As for being degraded, DNA analysis studies the 13 markers left in fresh DNA. None of the samples left on JB (haven't heard about the leggings) had all of their markers. The nail DNA had about 4, and the panty DNA had 9 and one that was highly questionable. Not very likely they were from that day. Not only that, but Mark Fuhrman said that some of those markers may be shadow bands, which is where the PCR tests used on low-quality DNA try to "fill in the gaps," as it were. This new DNA test is so sensitive, it might reproduce those shadow bands as well, but that's just a guess.

    I haven't heard anything solid from someone who believes the R.s guilty - ?
    be more specific, Jane Osa.

    but, you have to admit the DNA 'says' something.
    Hey, I say use it. There's not reason not to. it's just not enough to exclude anyone. That it clears the R's is only the opinion of the DA, who has always thought them innocent, even before she saw any evidence. Read Steve Thomas's book if you want to know what I'm talking about. It's replete with stories about how she tried to hang this crime on Santa Bill McReynolds and wouldn't entertain the idea of Patsy being guilty because she was a woman. Mary Lacy is a very committed feminist, a mother and a career woman. Nothing wrong with that. I'm not one of these "a woman's place is in the home" type guys. I'm secure enough in my manhood to say that if I woman wants it all, she can have it. I just hope she can handle it and she doesn't lose perspective. I think (MY OPINION!) that Mary Lacy saw Patsy, a wealthy, successful mother and indentified with her. She saw this successful, lovely lady being grilled by a bunch of macho male cops and that was it. Frank Coffman, a journalist in Boulder, said that after Detective Tom Haney's interview with Patsy in 1998, Lacy told him he was too rough on her. WHAT?! For one thing, Tom Haney is one of the FINEST homicide detectives in the entire Rocky Mountain area, if not the country. His record speaks for itself. And here's this assistant DA, who at that time I don't think had ever tried a murder case in her entire career, telling him he was too tough for using absolutely STANDARD interrogation techniques that a rookie on the BEAT would know! Haney's general feeling was, "who the h*** does she think SHE is?" Later on, she had the unmitigated gall to tell the cops that because they were men, they couldn't understand a woman's mindset. ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! That may or may not be true, but it's a hell of a way to decide guilt or innocence! She makes her predecessor look like Rudy Giuliani.

    Or this article:

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,379981,00.html

    Her decision was based on the fact that minuscule particles of foreign DNA that were found in JonBenet’s underpants apparently match skin cells discovered on the waistband of JonBenet’s leggings. Although this DNA may match, Lacy’s own words prove this particular DNA may not even be relevant.

    In 2006, after Lacy extradited John Mark Karr, an otherwise innocent man, from Thailand, to erroneously charge him with the murder, she announced: "The DNA could be an artifact. It isn't necessarily the killer’s. There’s a probability that it’s the killer’s. But it could be something else."


    It’s no secret that in 1997, when Lacy was a sex-assault prosecutor under then-DA Alex Hunter, she was furious when he did not appoint her to work on the case. Because Hunter and the police shied away from the intruder theory, many law enforcement officials often wonder if Lacy’s attempts to prove them wrong are driven more by her personal feelings than by the actual pursuit of justice.

    Shortly after taking office, Lacy announced in 2003 that she believed the Ramseys were innocent, an unusual and inappropriate statement for a prosecutor to make during an ongoing investigation.


    What that article doesn't mention is that in 2002, Lin Wood, the Ramseys' attorney, threatened to sue the police department if they didn't turn over the case to the DA's office, when he knew full well that Mary Lacy was sympathetic to his clients. What kind of sleazy backroom deal is THAT?! I've never even heard of such a thing: a suspect's lawyer deciding who the investigation is run by? I'm not a legal expert, so I don't know if that could be constituted obstruction of justice, or collusion, or not, but it damn well ought to be a disbarring offense. As far as I know, it may be legal, but it can't be ethical. Then, when she had the case, she made absolutely no attempt to even contact any of the original investigators, she brought in a whole new team consisting of people totally loyal to her point of view, including private investigators paid by the Ramseys, not to find the killer, but, as John admitted in his court deposition, to build a defense and keep him and Patsy out of jail. Alex Hunter was a lousy DA, (more on him per request) but at least he'd hear all sides. Lacy refuses to even talk to people who think the Ramseys might have been involved. That kind of "investigation" may fly in places like the Soviet Union or Zimbabwe or North Korea, but this is America, and we're supposed to be better than that.

    This stinks, Jane Osa. There's no other word for it. This is the most despicable instance of legal masturbation I've ever heard of since Watergate. I apologize if I seem angry, but ever since I was a kid, I learned the Pledge of Allegiance. I believed in it.

    "Justice for all."

    What a load that turned out to be.

    Now, if you'll all excuse me, I think I have to lie down.
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  2. #2
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    PR also needed to be in the same clothes that she had on the night before so that she could throw herself onto the body of JBR in front of numerous witnesses, in order to justify why fibers from what she had on the night before would be found on JBR.

    (IMHO)

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    Quote Originally Posted by angelwngs View Post
    PR also needed to be in the same clothes that she had on the night before so that she could throw herself onto the body of JBR in front of numerous witnesses, in order to justify why fibers from what she had on the night before would be found on JBR.

    (IMHO)
    Exactly!

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by angelwngs View Post
    PR also needed to be in the same clothes that she had on the night before so that she could throw herself onto the body of JBR in front of numerous witnesses, in order to justify why fibers from what she had on the night before would be found on JBR.

    (IMHO)
    I think that's giving WAY too much credence to the Ramsey's ability to think ahead & think like a crime scene investigator.

    It's easier to imagine that wearing the same clothes simply turned out to be a lucky 'mistake.'

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by LI_Mom View Post
    I think that's giving WAY too much credence to the Ramsey's ability to think ahead & think like a crime scene investigator.

    It's easier to imagine that wearing the same clothes simply turned out to be a lucky 'mistake.'
    Patsy Ramsey watched the OJ murder trial every now and then....she knew what she was doing.
    ...We have said to ourselves, look, there is never going to be a victory in this, there is no victory...John Ramsey: 6/24/98

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toltec View Post
    Patsy Ramsey watched the OJ murder trial every now and then....she knew what she was doing.
    That's true. And I believe she also was a fan of true crime books?

    Personally, if I had to bet money.... I just think that it's a bit of a stretch to suppose they'd be thinking THAT clearly. Even if they're staging things there has to be a LOT of stress because they're not hardened criminals & I just don't think these people are particularly smart.


    But it's a good theory in any event. I wouldn't say it's impossible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LI_Mom View Post
    That's true. And I believe she also was a fan of true crime books?

    Personally, if I had to bet money.... I just think that it's a bit of a stretch to suppose they'd be thinking THAT clearly. Even if they're staging things there has to be a LOT of stress because they're not hardened criminals & I just don't think these people are particularly smart.


    But it's a good theory in any event. I wouldn't say it's impossible.
    I believe that the same clothes were worn for two reasons...
    1. She never made it to bed that night.
    2. She wanted to be able to explain her fibers away..that is why she grabbed JB's body, while reciting the "Lazarus Speech". When told about those fibers found, in her 98 interview..she actually even says....something like..."well of course they would be there, I fell on her body". Not an exact quote...you would need to look it up for that. IOW..she KNEW what she was doing when she flung herself on JB's body, and I believe thats the reason that John brought her up from the basement too....and not let the investigators come DOWN to the basement to her. He also wanted to be able to explain away any of his fibers. These Rams were smart people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ames View Post
    I believe that the same clothes were worn for two reasons...
    1. She never made it to bed that night.
    2. She wanted to be able to explain her fibers away..that is why she grabbed JB's body, while reciting the "Lazarus Speech". When told about those fibers found, in her 98 interview..she actually even says....something like..."well of course they would be there, I fell on her body". Not an exact quote...you would need to look it up for that. IOW..she KNEW what she was doing when she flung herself on JB's body, and I believe thats the reason that John brought her up from the basement too....and not let the investigators come DOWN to the basement to her. He also wanted to be able to explain away any of his fibers. These Rams were smart people.
    Like I said, it could be.

    The one thing we know for a FACT..... the original LE on the scene were IDIOTS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LI_Mom View Post
    Like I said, it could be.

    The one thing we know for a FACT..... the original LE on the scene were IDIOTS.
    AMEN to that!

  10. #10
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    No one has any thoughts on what I said?

    Jane Osa, where you be?
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.


  11. #11
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    SD-- hope this isnt too off topic but am wondering does anyone know if the housekeepers husband's DNA has been check?

    I saw on one of Tricia's links ..everyone involve in Ramseys life during time of jonBenet death and it shows pic of housekeeper and her hubby and said they on the Leeza or Lessa show ( im guessing Lessa Gibbons had a show?) anyway, that a psychic drew a pic of JonBenet's killer and many thought the sketch look a lot like their housekeepers hubby----

    I ,respect you believe PR killed her daughter--just wondering anyones thoughts on this guy?
    ~~~

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    It was well-said,SD!!
    something to ponder:

    When the corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and the mortal have put on immortality, then shall we be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?

    The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
    But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    1 Corinthians 15:54-57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anniegirl View Post
    SD-- hope this isnt too off topic but am wondering does anyone know if the housekeepers husband's DNA has been check?

    I saw on one of Tricia's links ..everyone involve in Ramseys life during time of jonBenet death and it shows pic of housekeeper and her hubby and said they on the Leeza or Lessa show ( im guessing Lessa Gibbons had a show?) anyway, that a psychic drew a pic of JonBenet's killer and many thought the sketch look a lot like their housekeepers hubby----

    I ,respect you believe PR killed her daughter--just wondering anyones thoughts on this guy?
    yes,he was checked and cleared.he was also very cooperative with LE.he was also much older than the guy in the drawing appears to be.
    something to ponder:

    When the corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and the mortal have put on immortality, then shall we be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?

    The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
    But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    1 Corinthians 15:54-57

  14. #14
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    SD-- hope this isnt too off topic but am wondering does anyone know if the housekeepers husband's DNA has been check?

    I saw on one of Tricia's links ..everyone involve in Ramseys life during time of jonBenet death and it shows pic of housekeeper and her hubby and said they on the Leeza or Lessa show ( im guessing Lessa Gibbons had a show?) anyway, that a psychic drew a pic of JonBenet's killer and many thought the sketch look a lot like their housekeepers hubby----

    I ,respect you believe PR killed her daughter--just wondering anyones thoughts on this guy?
    Well, in my moments of doubt (not too many, but I do have them) the housekeeper and her husband are two people I do wonder about. But yes, as far as I know he was checked out.
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave View Post
    Well, in my moments of doubt (not too many, but I do have them) the housekeeper and her husband are two people I do wonder about. But yes, as far as I know he was checked out.
    Thanks, sorry to get in middle here--wasnt sure which thread to go to..the other is pretty long now.

    I am not big on "Psychic' powers' .. However, have seen some cases where some were right on.

    That James Prague pissed me off on "The View"(i only watch on days off ..all to hear my WHoopi!) the other morning , saying Heath Ledger came to him while he was shaving in mirror, that he "didnt recognize his face but than realized it was Heath and said, Heath was saying how he "screwed" up and something about his daughter" than he disappeared.Oh, and he also said Britney spears has 2 angels on each side of her..
    yea , pick 2 people heavily on media last 6 months or so--- and how odd ..he is promoting his new book.

    OK>>NOW , IM REALLY off topic ..sorry. *back to my corner*!
    ~~~

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