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Thread: Who Is Caylee's Biological Father?

  1. #801
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    Quote Originally Posted by karenz View Post
    Dr. P

    I definitely have a strong reaction/backlash myself so I must fess up! I asked if someone could summarize for me evidence that leads one to believe this may be a possibility. I am not doubting anyone I guess I have a hard time because all I have heard is LP said there may be. I have read through the posts but can some "believers" fill me in on why they believe there may have been incest. I am trying to keep a open mind so if you could present your points of view I would appreciate it.

    On that note, I examine why I have such a strong reaction myself. I guess I fear that KC will use some PTSD or incest or some other excuse that may not be valid for getting away with this. If she does have a valid reason, I would love to wrap my head around it and maybe find a way in my own heart to understand. If not, I guess i just get mad it is just another of KC's ploys at the expense of those with real, valid issues.

    I just want to know! And I don't think I will ever know. Frustrating.

    Thanks!

    I have outlined several times why I personally believe there may be validity to it. I think it explains some things that has people puzzled regarding the trek Casey was on and the family behavior starting the night of the 911 calls by Cindy.

    It would explain the following:
    1. A seemingly shy, quiet, smart, young girl dropping suddenly out of high school. This has been disputed by some.
    2. Denial by her and the family that she was pregnant at her brothers wedding at 7 months pregnant.
    3. A slippery path to sociopathy starting with the abandonment of her job where she was employee of the year.
    4. Resentment towards Caylee and her mother, evolving into murder as the sociopathy took over.
    5. The family enabling her out of shame to lie, steal, and cheat. Guilt.
    6. Her promiscuity after Caylee was born. (Typical of abuse victims)
    7. Her closeness with her abuser. Not abnormal in the least.
    8. Her mother saying she was protecting the family.
    9. Lee trying to stop the third 911 call.
    10. Lee trying to handle the investigation.
    11. Lee convincing Cindy and George to not take polygraghs.
    12. The family's numerous stories of who the father is and Casey's choice to invoke sympathy by saying the father died coming to Caylee's birthday.
    13. The family regrouping and circling the wagons following the third 911 call.
    14. Lee refusing to take a DNA test.
    15. Cindy saying Casey would be mother of the year when she really meant that she would be mother of the year by proxy by protecting Casey and Lee.
    16. The continued obfuscation of Law Enforcement and lies to the media.
    17. Lee disappearing from everywhere following the subpoena for DNA being served.
    18. George leaving the house and living with parents around the time Caylee was brought home and the filing for divorce about the time the paternity test with Jesse was taken. Was he ashamed of Lee or was it a gambling habit?
    19. Lee not coming around before this when George was home.
    20. The name - Cay-Lee - named by Cindy when Cindy was the first to hold the child.


    I think it was curious how Dr. Baden on Fox suggested they know the father when he looked at the latest FBI report. It is also my knowledge now that Rob Dick and the L. Padilla team had access to the paternity reports with Jesse and he has been waiting patiently for the DNA tests to confirm what they think they know. This might explain how Casey's phone bills were paid if she were to have the outward responsibility of taking care of the child, whereby Lee had some financial responsibility to Casey and Caylee.

    I don't think it is an excuse by any means, but it would explain some things that have people wondering. I guess it comes down to this if true:

    1. They found out that night that Caylee is gone.
    2. Cindy and George cleaned the car out, laundered items in the car and removed potential evidence.
    3. They all attempted to get the date of the 9th straight corresponding to the woman found raped and murdered around that time.
    4. They obfuscated LE by sending on wild goosechases
    5. They let Casey know at the bond hearing that "there is no evidence" and a thumbs up by George.
    6. Deny and backtrack over previous statements.
    7. Throw off search efforts.
    8. Make money off the deal one way or another for defense and for the future benefit of the family.
    9. Now it is public relations and money deals.
    10. Meanwhile who knows where Caylee's body is at. They don't care.

  2. #802
    belleyes is offline LOOK I learned how to type a user title.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brini View Post
    So, you think LA is able to FORCE KC to do anything? Especially as an adult? She was an adult when Caylee was conceived.

    Do you see KC subordinating herslf to LA?

    Sorry.. I worked with a ton of molested (incest) kids. I don't think it's happening to KC.

    Now, re: sociopathy, researchers seem to be divided. Some think there is a hereditary "bad seed." Some think that it's the product of having a parent with a personality disorder. There is no solid evidence either way. But, incest is not found to a higher than normal degree in that population.

    Most molestation victims are not "forced" but groomed and it definately can occur into adulthood. Many times the victim is conditioned to do what is "expected" in order to not "disrupt the family" I too have worked with many victims. Brini... I agree with you about the sociopathy but I also believe this is a textbook case of "family secrets"---IMO she has multiple d/x on dsm and also agree not exhibiting PTSD at (least not typically)
    princess - daughter of The King

  3. #803
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    Quote Originally Posted by belleyes View Post
    Most molestation victims are not "forced" but groomed and it definately can occur into adulthood. Many times the victim is conditioned to do what is "expected" in order to not "disrupt the family" I too have worked with many victims. Brini... I agree with you about the sociopathy but I also believe this is a textbook case of "family secrets"---IMO she has multiple d/x on dsm and also agree not exhibiting PTSD at (least not typically)
    I think your assessment is correct.

  4. #804
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    Quote Originally Posted by weasel View Post
    <<Casey has brown eyes, not blue. >>

    ??? Casey has blue eyes ...

    Yes, she has brown eyes. If you read the description on her arrest sheet, it states she has brown eyes and look at the pictures of her in custody, she has brown eyes. I also read somewhere that she wore coloured contacts.

  5. #805
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    Quote Originally Posted by belleyes View Post
    Most molestation victims are not "forced" but groomed and it definately can occur into adulthood. Many times the victim is conditioned to do what is "expected" in order to not "disrupt the family" I too have worked with many victims. Brini... I agree with you about the sociopathy but I also believe this is a textbook case of "family secrets"---IMO she has multiple d/x on dsm and also agree not exhibiting PTSD at (least not typically)
    KC appears to have been groomed? In what ways? Dependency? Adoption of part of the "molester's" reality? Both are essential to grooming.

    KC does as she likes. Her self-image is not being nourished heavily by LE. It is being nourished by other poeple. She is not dependent on LE for any sort of reality check or ego feed. She appears to be more manipulative than LE, and is prolly two steps ahead of him, most of the time.

    He does not appear to be sexually jealous of KC, either.

    Their relationship looks like any other fairly close sib relationship.

    Whet symptoms of "grooming" are you seeing?
    Age. Fac ut gaudeam

  6. #806
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    Quote Originally Posted by Broderick View Post
    I have outlined several times why I personally believe there may be validity to it. I think it explains some things that has people puzzled regarding the trek Casey was on and the family behavior starting the night of the 911 calls by Cindy.

    It would explain the following:
    1. A seemingly shy, quiet, smart, young girl dropping suddenly out of high school. This has been disputed by some.
    2. Denial by her and the family that she was pregnant at her brothers wedding at 7 months pregnant.
    3. A slippery path to sociopathy starting with the abandonment of her job where she was employee of the year.
    4. Resentment towards Caylee and her mother, evolving into murder as the sociopathy took over.
    5. The family enabling her out of shame to lie, steal, and cheat. Guilt.
    6. Her promiscuity after Caylee was born. (Typical of abuse victims)
    7. Her closeness with her abuser. Not abnormal in the least.
    8. Her mother saying she was protecting the family.
    9. Lee trying to stop the third 911 call.
    10. Lee trying to handle the investigation.
    11. Lee convincing Cindy and George to not take polygraghs.
    12. The family's numerous stories of who the father is and Casey's choice to invoke sympathy by saying the father died coming to Caylee's birthday.
    13. The family regrouping and circling the wagons following the third 911 call.
    14. Lee refusing to take a DNA test.
    15. Cindy saying Casey would be mother of the year when she really meant that she would be mother of the year by proxy by protecting Casey and Lee.
    16. The continued obfuscation of Law Enforcement and lies to the media.
    17. Lee disappearing from everywhere following the subpoena for DNA being served.
    18. George leaving the house and living with parents around the time Caylee was brought home and the filing for divorce about the time the paternity test with Jesse was taken. Was he ashamed of Lee or was it a gambling habit?
    19. Lee not coming around before this when George was home.
    20. The name - Cay-Lee - named by Cindy when Cindy was the first to hold the child.
    I think it was curious how Dr. Baden on Fox suggested they know the father when he looked at the latest FBI report. It is also my knowledge now that Rob Dick and the L. Padilla team had access to the paternity reports with Jesse and he has been waiting patiently for the DNA tests to confirm what they think they know. This might explain how Casey's phone bills were paid if she were to have the outward responsibility of taking care of the child, whereby Lee had some financial responsibility to Casey and Caylee.

    I don't think it is an excuse by any means, but it would explain some things that have people wondering. I guess it comes down to this if true:

    1. They found out that night that Caylee is gone.
    2. Cindy and George cleaned the car out, laundered items in the car and removed potential evidence.
    3. They all attempted to get the date of the 9th straight corresponding to the woman found raped and murdered around that time.
    4. They obfuscated LE by sending on wild goosechases
    5. They let Casey know at the bond hearing that "there is no evidence" and a thumbs up by George.
    6. Deny and backtrack over previous statements.
    7. Throw off search efforts.
    8. Make money off the deal one way or another for defense and for the future benefit of the family.
    9. Now it is public relations and money deals.
    10. Meanwhile who knows where Caylee's body is at. They don't care.
    Excellent post! Thank you so much. This is exactly what i was looking for.
    You know I looked over your list and I see where people get the feeling. It was funny the last one on your list- boldened by me- was the one that stuck out the most for me. That is odd in my book. I have 2 brothers and would never call my kid half my name/half his name. Weird to me. Was one of the grandfathers a "Lee"?

    What do you think of the fact there were only 2 calls between LA and KC. Another phone? KC trying to exert independence? Rebellion?

    Also, has it been determined that she was indeed employee of the year or was that a fake? Just wondering if it fits in the whole scheme of things. It is my understanding that she simply ran a kiosk in the park and was a simple hourly worker. Nothing wrong with hourly working, just not something she cannot get another one of.

    Ultimately, I see where most who believe this is a possibility is her seemingly "normal" up until Caylee was born. Sociopaths typically develop around that time too (but usually with previous signs). But perhaps some event (like rape, incest or some life altering event) precipitated this.

    Honestly when JB said someday we will all understand why KC did this, I guess if this is what happened to her then I would understand more than I do now, but I know victims of incest that would never do these things. Most of them I know have dissociative or multiple personality disorders. Maybe this does fit KC?? I don't know.

    I also read posts about 'Who cares who the Dad is?' I think it is extremely important to determine this to rule him out as a suspect. At least for this WS'er.

    Thanks for mulling this around with me.

  7. #807
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    Quote Originally Posted by karenz View Post
    Dr. P

    I definitely have a strong reaction/backlash myself so I must fess up! I asked if someone could summarize for me evidence that leads one to believe this may be a possibility. I am not doubting anyone I guess I have a hard time because all I have heard is LP said there may be. I have read through the posts but can some "believers" fill me in on why they believe there may have been incest. I am trying to keep a open mind so if you could present your points of view I would appreciate it.

    On that note, I examine why I have such a strong reaction myself. I guess I fear that KC will use some PTSD or incest or some other excuse that may not be valid for getting away with this. If she does have a valid reason, I would love to wrap my head around it and maybe find a way in my own heart to understand. If not, I guess i just get mad it is just another of KC's ploys at the expense of those with real, valid issues.

    I just want to know! And I don't think I will ever know. Frustrating.

    Thanks!
    Being labeled with PTSD or as a victim of incest is not going to cause her to get away with murder. The labels might help explain some of her behavior, but she is still responsible for her actions. I'm sure the defense will try to claim she has a mental illness, but I don't think it will get them very far. You can be mentally ill and still know right from wrong.

    Don't feel bad. I have a strong reaction to the entire incest theory too.

  8. #808
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    Quote Originally Posted by karenz View Post
    Dr. P

    I definitely have a strong reaction/backlash myself so I must fess up! I asked if someone could summarize for me evidence that leads one to believe this may be a possibility. I am not doubting anyone I guess I have a hard time because all I have heard is LP said there may be. I have read through the posts but can some "believers" fill me in on why they believe there may have been incest. I am trying to keep a open mind so if you could present your points of view I would appreciate it.

    On that note, I examine why I have such a strong reaction myself. I guess I fear that KC will use some PTSD or incest or some other excuse that may not be valid for getting away with this. If she does have a valid reason, I would love to wrap my head around it and maybe find a way in my own heart to understand. If not, I guess i just get mad it is just another of KC's ploys at the expense of those with real, valid issues.

    I just want to know! And I don't think I will ever know. Frustrating.

    Thanks!
    Well, she has no symptoms of PTSD. If she claimed that or incest (which I doubt that she can) it wouldn't help. Incest victims and PTSD sufferers do not characteristically kill their kids.

    She'd still have to prove she didn't know what she was doing. She can't.
    Age. Fac ut gaudeam

  9. #809
    Cindy’s behavior, the stories that she has told about who Caylee’s father is and the stories that she has allowed Casey to propagate all tend to point to a family ‘secret’.
    It does appear that Cindy does not want something to be found out. Is it just that Casey was extremely promiscuous or is there something more?

    Rape is also something that may have happened to Casey and although many cases of rape by a stranger or casual friend are never reported I would have thought by now Casey would have at least told her mother and at this point I don’t think Cindy would have felt the need to keep that a secret any longer. I could be wrong. If it was something that had happen to Cindy herself and she never dealt with it she may not been able to handle the same thing happening to Casey. That same fact may also play into incest. To acknowledge it with Casey means she has to face her own past. Cindy’s controlling behavior comes from somewhere. Cindy’s own past may be why Casey is like she is.

    My initial thought when LP came out with the 'hint' that Lee A may be the father of Caylee the main purpose was to 'shake the tree' to see what fell out. Claim the father may be the brother and someone would fess up and come out with the actual name or potential names of the father to prove it was not Lee.
    LP set the bait to see who would take it and what they would do with.

    As far as LE wanting to know whom the father is would be because this was originally a kidnapping case so any relative that may have possibly involvement would need to be identified.

    Now that this is a murder case and they have charged Casey I would think that the main reason to know who the father is would play to motive. Was Casey receiving some type of support? Even if nothing showed up on the books and this father stopped support would this be a reason for Casey killing her daughter.
    Then I would also think that the prosecution would have to be prepared with information to dispute whatever the defense attempts to throw out there as ‘someone else is responsible’.
    If LE can determine who the father is the prosecution reduces the risk of being blindsided in court with a theory of reasonable doubt from the defense.
    From what I can see at this point with the evidence reasonable doubt by JB is the only thing he has.

    It was not all that long ago that it was the norm for family members to marry other family members. You only have to go back a couple of hundred years to find it common for this to include 1st cousins as well. Society has a short memory and society also has many ‘blind’ spots. Incest by force happens everyday by fathers, brothers and uncles and the ages that it starts vary greatly. Unfortunately society is now only just starting to come to grips with this fact and the unwillingness to understand or even entertain this fact is why it continues to happen. How many girls have been a victim and to this day have never told a soul. They continue to carry the burden in fear that others will find out and blame them. Many do blame themselves. It is what they are lead to believe not only by the perpetrator but also by US, society. If not recognized, acknowledged and treated it carries into many areas of this person’s life. This type of abuse sets up the victim for a lifetime of mental anguish causing dysfunction. Dysfunction begets dysfunction.

    Lee being the father is not really that far fetched. Yes it would be incest but it also may have been consensual incest and not from abuse or force. Another member of the family could have fathered Caylee as well and this could include George, one of the grandfathers, uncles or male cousins.

    Continuing silence from Casey on whom the father is to be expected. The continued silence on whom the father is from Cindy at this point becomes suspect. Cindy gave LE a name in the one interview. It no longer severed any purpose to keep quite. The question remain was that name correct? Cindy claimed that legal papers had been drawn up and if LE found this to be not true, something that we do not yet know, then that would make it even a stronger possibility that a family member is Caylee’s father. The only other possibility is someone of prominence or power that would have a means of influence over the family to stay quite.

    As always just my opinion.

  10. #810
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    Quote Originally Posted by Broderick View Post
    I have outlined several times why I personally believe there may be validity to it. I think it explains some things that has people puzzled regarding the trek Casey was on and the family behavior starting the night of the 911 calls by Cindy.

    It would explain the following:
    1. A seemingly shy, quiet, smart, young girl dropping suddenly out of high school. This has been disputed by some.

    ***Because she wanted to party. Honey, she's a quitter.

    2. Denial by her and the family that she was pregnant at her brothers wedding at 7 months pregnant.

    ***Pattern of going along with ANY lie she told, in her life. Not just the pregnancy.

    3. A slippery path to sociopathy starting with the abandonment of her job where she was employee of the year.

    ***Sociopathy starts in childhood, NOT adulthood. LE said she "has a bit of a criminal history." My guess is she's acted out, and been enabled, for most of her life.

    4. Resentment towards Caylee and her mother, evolving into murder as the sociopathy took over.

    ****Sociopathy starts early on, honey. It does not spring into full bloom in adulthood.

    ****I resented my father, heavily, too. He did not molest me.

    5. The family enabling her out of shame to lie, steal, and cheat. Guilt.

    **** How do you know they are enabling her "out of shame?" How about out of laziness, or out of the inability to control her? She appears to be a very strong-willed person. How about just not being great parents?

    6. Her promiscuity after Caylee was born. (Typical of abuse victims)

    *****It's also typical of young people getting away from the folks, these days. They get out of the house, and party hearty. This especially in kids who leave for college. Heck, I did it my freshman year.

    7. Her closeness with her abuser. Not abnormal in the least.

    ****Her appropraite closeness to her BROTHER. Just like mine to my brother (who never molested me).

    8. Her mother saying she was protecting the family.

    **** That she is! Or, thinks she is. She's been covering for KC's sociopathic behavior all her life. Now, she's avoid the disgrace of felony and incarceration.

    9. Lee trying to stop the third 911 call.

    ****Huh?

    10. Lee trying to handle the investigation.

    *****How so? Most of the "handling" is done by KC and CA. Both are controllers. LA appears to be a minor player.

    11. Lee convincing Cindy and George to not take polygraphs.

    *****How so? Many people won't take polygraphs on principle.

    12. The family's numerous stories of who the father is and Casey's choice to invoke sympathy by saying the father died coming to Caylee's birthday.

    ****KC's choice to invoke sympathy is symptomatic of sociopathy. She's very manlpulative.

    ****Has it ever occured to you that they family might be telling the truth, when they say that they don't know who the father is? And, that Rick might know what he's talking about when he says that KC got pregnanty at a party, and doesn't know either?

    13. The family regrouping and circling the wagons following the third 911 call.

    *****Which is typical of "closed systems" families (dysfunctional). My family was one. And, there was no incest.

    14. Lee refusing to take a DNA test.

    *****There we go again with LA's stubborness and "principle."

    15. Cindy saying Casey would be mother of the year when she really meant that she would be mother of the year by proxy by protecting Casey and Lee.

    ****Huh? How do you know what CA meant?

    16. The continued obfuscation of Law Enforcement and lies to the media.

    *****To keep the kid out of jail.

    17. Lee disappearing from everywhere following the subpoena for DNA being served.

    ****LA disappearing from time to time, since the whole thing started. Some of it is, he said, business travel.

    18. George leaving the house and living with parents around the time Caylee was brought home and the filing for divorce about the time the paternity test with Jesse was taken. Was he ashamed of Lee or was it a gambling habit?

    ****George being thrown out by CA, because of a Net gambling habit, per CA's brother.

    19. Lee not coming around before this when George was home.

    ****Huh? Link, please!

    20. The name - Cay-Lee - named by Cindy when Cindy was the first to hold the child.

    ****Common Irish name meaning, "slender." Google it to SEE how common. KC is apparently proud of some Irish in her background. Shamrock tat and "caseyomarie." 'Casey" is another Irish name, BTW, meaning, "vigilant." Looks like the fam has a bit of a tradition, there.

    I think it was curious how Dr. Baden on Fox suggested they know the father when he looked at the latest FBI report.

    *****So, he said it was LA?

    It is also my knowledge now that Rob Dick and the L. Padilla team had access to the paternity reports with Jesse and he has been waiting patiently for the DNA tests to confirm what they think they know. This might explain how Casey's phone bills were paid if she were to have the outward responsibility of taking care of the child, whereby Lee had some financial responsibility to Casey and Caylee.

    ****Except CA says SHE financially supported Caylee all her life. Not LA.

    I don't think it is an excuse by any means, but it would explain some things that have people wondering. I guess it comes down to this if true:

    1. They found out that night that Caylee is gone.
    2. Cindy and George cleaned the car out, laundered items in the car and removed potential evidence.
    3. They all attempted to get the date of the 9th straight corresponding to the woman found raped and murdered around that time.
    4. They obfuscated LE by sending on wild goosechases
    5. They let Casey know at the bond hearing that "there is no evidence" and a thumbs up by George.
    6. Deny and backtrack over previous statements.
    7. Throw off search efforts.
    8. Make money off the deal one way or another for defense and for the future benefit of the family.
    9. Now it is public relations and money deals.
    10. Meanwhile who knows where Caylee's body is at. They don't care.

    *****All about protecting KC from JAIL. And, the family from disgrace of JAIL.
    Thie above seems a bit of a stretch, and personal interpretation.

    What symptoms of grooming do you see?

    Knowing that the groomer must be more intelligent, more persuasive/manipulative, and more confident than the groomee.. are you SURE you see LA as a groomer of KC?

    You appear to be very passionate about the incest idea. But, I think you are WAY off the mark.
    Age. Fac ut gaudeam

  11. #811
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadow of my mind View Post
    Cindy’s behavior, the stories that she has told about who Caylee’s father is and the stories that she has allowed Casey to propagate all tend to point to a family ‘secret’.
    It does appear that Cindy does not want something to be found out. Is it just that Casey was extremely promiscuous or is there something more?

    Rape is also something that may have happened to Casey and although many cases of rape by a stranger or casual friend are never reported I would have thought by now Casey would have at least told her mother and at this point I don’t think Cindy would have felt the need to keep that a secret any longer. I could be wrong. If it was something that had happen to Cindy herself and she never dealt with it she may not been able to handle the same thing happening to Casey. That same fact may also play into incest. To acknowledge it with Casey means she has to face her own past. Cindy’s controlling behavior comes from somewhere. Cindy’s own past may be why Casey is like she is.

    My initial thought when LP came out with the 'hint' that Lee A may be the father of Caylee the main purpose was to 'shake the tree' to see what fell out. Claim the father may be the brother and someone would fess up and come out with the actual name or potential names of the father to prove it was not Lee.
    LP set the bait to see who would take it and what they would do with.

    As far as LE wanting to know whom the father is would be because this was originally a kidnapping case so any relative that may have possibly involvement would need to be identified.

    Now that this is a murder case and they have charged Casey I would think that the main reason to know who the father is would play to motive. Was Casey receiving some type of support? Even if nothing showed up on the books and this father stopped support would this be a reason for Casey killing her daughter.
    Then I would also think that the prosecution would have to be prepared with information to dispute whatever the defense attempts to throw out there as ‘someone else is responsible’.
    If LE can determine who the father is the prosecution reduces the risk of being blindsided in court with a theory of reasonable doubt from the defense.
    From what I can see at this point with the evidence reasonable doubt by JB is the only thing he has.

    It was not all that long ago that it was the norm for family members to marry other family members. You only have to go back a couple of hundred years to find it common for this to include 1st cousins as well. Society has a short memory and society also has many ‘blind’ spots. Incest by force happens everyday by fathers, brothers and uncles and the ages that it starts vary greatly. Unfortunately society is now only just starting to come to grips with this fact and the unwillingness to understand or even entertain this fact is why it continues to happen. How many girls have been a victim and to this day have never told a soul. They continue to carry the burden in fear that others will find out and blame them. Many do blame themselves. It is what they are lead to believe not only by the perpetrator but also by US, society. If not recognized, acknowledged and treated it carries into many areas of this person’s life. This type of abuse sets up the victim for a lifetime of mental anguish causing dysfunction. Dysfunction begets dysfunction.

    Lee being the father is not really that far fetched. Yes it would be incest but it also may have been consensual incest and not from abuse or force. Another member of the family could have fathered Caylee as well and this could include George, one of the grandfathers, uncles or male cousins.

    Continuing silence from Casey on whom the father is to be expected. The continued silence on whom the father is from Cindy at this point becomes suspect. Cindy gave LE a name in the one interview. It no longer severed any purpose to keep quite. The question remain was that name correct? Cindy claimed that legal papers had been drawn up and if LE found this to be not true, something that we do not yet know, then that would make it even a stronger possibility that a family member is Caylee’s father. The only other possibility is someone of prominence or power that would have a means of influence over the family to stay quite.

    As always just my opinion.
    Incest is possible- anything is possible. But, not indicated.

    Continuing silence from KC/the family can easily be explained by what they said-- they don't know who the father is. Rick said KC was impregnated at a specific party, where there was more than one contact.

    We don't KNOW whether KC was normal and well-behaved as a child. All we know about KC prior to this is the opinion of one of her teachers.

    The women appear to be dominent in this family-- not the men.

    The family secret is... the daughter of the house is a sociopath and habitual thief.

    MOO.
    Age. Fac ut gaudeam

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    Quote Originally Posted by karenz View Post
    Excellent post! Thank you so much. This is exactly what i was looking for.
    You know I looked over your list and I see where people get the feeling. It was funny the last one on your list- boldened by me- was the one that stuck out the most for me. That is odd in my book. I have 2 brothers and would never call my kid half my name/half his name. Weird to me. Was one of the grandfathers a "Lee"?

    What do you think of the fact there were only 2 calls between LA and KC. Another phone? KC trying to exert independence? Rebellion?

    Also, has it been determined that she was indeed employee of the year or was that a fake? Just wondering if it fits in the whole scheme of things. It is my understanding that she simply ran a kiosk in the park and was a simple hourly worker. Nothing wrong with hourly working, just not something she cannot get another one of.

    Ultimately, I see where most who believe this is a possibility is her seemingly "normal" up until Caylee was born. Sociopaths typically develop around that time too (but usually with previous signs). But perhaps some event (like rape, incest or some life altering event) precipitated this.

    Honestly when JB said someday we will all understand why KC did this, I guess if this is what happened to her then I would understand more than I do now, but I know victims of incest that would never do these things. Most of them I know have dissociative or multiple personality disorders. Maybe this does fit KC?? I don't know.

    I also read posts about 'Who cares who the Dad is?' I think it is extremely important to determine this to rule him out as a suspect. At least for this WS'er.

    Thanks for mulling this around with me.
    How do we know she was "normal", before this? CA told her childhood friend, Ryan, to "stay away from KC, because she's a sociopath."

    No, sociopathy does not show first onset in adulthood. Pregnancy is not causal, either.

    Pretty sure if there was something sinister and essential to the case about Caylee's paternity, LE would have long since investigated it.

    Bottom line is.. legal insanity means that you didn't know what you were doing was wrong. She DID.

    No, a rape would not cause sociopathic personality disorder. It could cause PTSD.
    Age. Fac ut gaudeam

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    Quote Originally Posted by tiredofthis View Post
    Being labeled with PTSD or as a victim of incest is not going to cause her to get away with murder. The labels might help explain some of her behavior, but she is still responsible for her actions. I'm sure the defense will try to claim she has a mental illness, but I don't think it will get them very far. You can be mentally ill and still know right from wrong.

    Don't feel bad. I have a strong reaction to the entire incest theory too.
    Absolutely positively correct. It would help to explain but never excuse. If it ends up being true, I hope at the least it helps other families never foment this type of situation.

    Why was Cindy seeing a family counselor and when? I think that information came out and was AFTER George and her reconciled and the divorce filing was canceled in 2007.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brini View Post
    Incest is possible- anything is possible. But, not indicated.

    Continuing silence from KC/the family can easily be explained by what they said-- they don't know who the father is. Rick said KC was impregnated at a specific party, where there was more than one contact.

    We don't KNOW whether KC was normal and well-behaved as a child. All we know about KC prior to this is the opinion of one of her teachers.

    The women appear to be dominent in this family-- not the men.

    The family secret is... the daughter of the house is a sociopath and habitual thief.

    MOO.
    Rick didn't know for sure. He was just throwing it out there, like, she could've gotten pregnant at some Christmas party.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brini View Post
    Well, she has no symptoms of PTSD. If she claimed that or incest (which I doubt that she can) it wouldn't help. Incest victims and PTSD sufferers do not characteristically kill their kids.

    She'd still have to prove she didn't know what she was doing. She can't.
    Incest victims are a large part of the female inmate population that are there because of violent crimes. Look it up. 60% of female violent offenders were victims of sexual abuse as children and half of those were with family abuse. Murder is a violent crime. It is very rare for a woman to kill their children, maybe not as rare as the documented 200 cases a year but rare nonetheless.

    I agree that most familial sexual abuse by brothers and fathers and stepfather are cultivated and not violently abused. Almost all sexual abuse with children is far from violent and more coerced over time in a non-aggressive non-violent manner. You probably know that already.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Broderick View Post
    Absolutely positively correct. It would help to explain but never excuse. If it ends up being true, I hope at the least it helps other families never foment this type of situation.

    Why was Cindy seeing a family counselor and when? I think that information came out and was AFTER George and her reconciled and the divorce filing was canceled in 2007.
    She was seeing a counselor about KC's irresponsibility. She wanted KC to stop "mooching and leaching." (CA's words)
    Age. Fac ut gaudeam

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    Quote Originally Posted by Broderick View Post
    Incest victims are a large part of the female inmate population that are there because of violent crimes. Look it up. 60% of female violent offenders were victims of sexual abuse as children and half of those were with family abuse. Murder is a violent crime. It is very rare for a woman to kill their children, maybe not as rare as the documented 200 cases a year but rare nonetheless.

    I agree that most familial sexual abuse by brothers and fathers and stepfather are cultivated and not violently abused. Almost all sexual abuse with children is far from violent and more coerced over time in a non-aggressive non-violent manner. You probably know that already.
    Link, please re: most female inmates being incest victims.

    What percentage are sociopaths? It is not rare for a sociopathic mother to kill her kids. ID has had a few shows on that, BTW.

    I think if you research, you will find that sociopathy is causal to child murder, with or without sexual abuse. If incest was causal, we'd have a tremendous increase in child murder.

    So, you think Bundy, Ramirez, Peterson, and Bianchi were ALSO incest victims? They were all sociopathic murderers.

    What grooming symptons/behaviors are you seeing?

    Would you say LA is more charismatic, manipulative, and stronger willed than KC? Those are groomer qualifications.
    Age. Fac ut gaudeam

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    Caylee had no real father. Casey is apparently a Hermaphrodite. I understand earthworms are also but I might be mistaken.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brini View Post
    Thie above seems a bit of a stretch, and personal interpretation.

    What symptoms of grooming do you see?

    Knowing that the groomer must be more intelligent, more persuasive/manipulative, and more confident than the groomee.. are you SURE you see LA as a groomer of KC?

    You appear to be very passionate about the incest idea. But, I think you are WAY off the mark.
    We shall see if I am off the mark. I highly doubt it, but like I said before nobody wins. You seem passionate to diagnose from afar as well, and I care less about the diagnosis and care more about putting the pieces of the puzzle as a whole together. Nobody wins, and I will continue on putting what pieces I think fit together until evidence proves me right or proves me wrong. Not going to argue about it because it is like arguing with those that think Caylee has been hauled off to the Batcave in Gotham City by some unknown assailant that is holding her hostage. I am not posting to be right or wrong, just to put the theories and advance some understanding to the whole picture as it fits today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brini View Post
    She was seeing a counselor about KC's irresponsibility. She wanted KC to stop "mooching and leaching." (CA's words)
    Now you believe everything Cindy say. Okay. I don't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brini View Post
    Link, please re: most female inmates being incest victims.

    What percentage are sociopaths? It is not rare for a sociopathic mother to kill her kids. ID has had a few shows on that, BTW.

    I think if you research, you will find that sociopathy is causal to child murder, with or without sexual abuse. If incest was causal, we'd have a tremendous increase in child murder.

    So, you think Bundy, Ramirez, Peterson, and Bianchi were ALSO incest victims? They were all sociopathic murderers.

    What grooming symptons/behaviors are you seeing?

    Would you say LA is more charismatic, manipulative, and stronger willed than KC? Those are groomer qualifications.
    Would you say that Casey is more charismatic, manipulative, and stronger willed than Lee? Maybe she was the initiator. It's still incest if that is the case.

  22. #822
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brini View Post
    Link, please re: most female inmates being incest victims.

    What percentage are sociopaths? It is not rare for a sociopathic mother to kill her kids. ID has had a few shows on that, BTW.

    I think if you research, you will find that sociopathy is causal to child murder, with or without sexual abuse. If incest was causal, we'd have a tremendous increase in child murder.

    So, you think Bundy, Ramirez, Peterson, and Bianchi were ALSO incest victims? They were all sociopathic murderers.

    What grooming symptons/behaviors are you seeing?

    Would you say LA is more charismatic, manipulative, and stronger willed than KC? Those are groomer qualifications.


    There are tens of thousands of cases each year of sexual abuse by fathers and brothers, and many more not reported. I think you think or are trying to portray that one is either all the way sociopathic or they are not sociopathic. I would hope you know that is far from reality. Sociopathic members of society can be completely normal for much of their life. Serial murderers tend to be 30 plus years old. It is cultivated through time so your scenarios fit, but I do not believe this is the case. I think Casey entered through time an alternative reality of sorts from excessive guilt, shame, and enabling. A nurtured sociopath of sorts. There are about 200 cases documented on average per year of mothers killing their children. You brought up four men. Men are different than woman and I would hope you know that so comparing them to Casey would be quite a stretch. As far as grooming, who knows. I don't think Lee would have forced himself upon her in the least, but the four year difference in age would help in assuming if the period of abuse (averaging 7 years) started well before conception, it is abuse. I do think the opportunity was there and they both lived at home well after Lee graduated from high school and well before he met Mallory.

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    Maybe Caylee's father was "in the system" and when they ran the DNA they came up with a name. Maybe that is why they say they know who the father is and don't seem to be following that lead as a possibility.
    "The opinion prevailed among advanced minds that it was time that belief should be replaced increasingly by knowledge; belief that did not itself rest on knowledge was superstition, and as such had to be opposed." - Albert Einstein

  24. #824
    belleyes is offline LOOK I learned how to type a user title.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Broderick View Post
    There are tens of thousands of cases each year of sexual abuse by fathers and brothers, and many more not reported. I think you think or are trying to portray that one is either all the way sociopathic or they are not sociopathic. I would hope you know that is far from reality. Sociopathic members of society can be completely normal for much of their life. Serial murderers tend to be 30 plus years old. It is cultivated through time so your scenarios fit, but I do not believe this is the case. I think Casey entered through time an alternative reality of sorts from excessive guilt, shame, and enabling. A nurtured sociopath of sorts. There are about 200 cases documented on average per year of mothers killing their children. You brought up four men. Men are different than woman and I would hope you know that so comparing them to Casey would be quite a stretch. As far as grooming, who knows. I don't think Lee would have forced himself upon her in the least, but the four year difference in age would help in assuming if the period of abuse (averaging 7 years) started well before conception, it is abuse. I do think the opportunity was there and they both lived at home well after Lee graduated from high school and well before he met Mallory.
    Thank You, I agree with everything you've mentioned...you have a knack for verbalizing my thoughts....but with much more clarity
    Brini when I commented on "grooming" I was not suggesting this was the case only rebutting the "forced" statement---I am only observing and doing some "armchair analysis". Imo to make a d/x of sociopathy or any other "damning d/x" is unjust, without having spoken to family/KC and collected case history. That said----to me the family's b/x is indicative of sexual abuse (1 out of 3 girls will be a victim)
    princess - daughter of The King

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    Quote Originally Posted by belleyes View Post
    Thank You, I agree with everything you've mentioned...you have a knack for verbalizing my thoughts....but with much more clarity
    Brini when I commented on "grooming" I was not suggesting this was the case only rebutting the "forced" statement---I am only observing and doing some "armchair analysis". Imo to make a d/x of sociopathy or any other "damning d/x" is unjust, without having spoken to family/KC and collected case history. That said----to me the family's b/x is indicative of sexual abuse (1 out of 3 girls will be a victim)
    I appreciate that. I don't believe it, but thanks. Seemingly it is a far more uncomfortable subject for many than something as rare as someone killing their child out of spite and resentment. I think it relates more to the uncomfortableness around this taboo subject, and the understandably harsh rebuke and response you get when you broach it one way or another. I don't shy away from it, because it is something that should be discussed because it makes sense.

    Today. No denials and no rebuttals from the family. I think the silence is deafening because if you follow the family, and Casey as well, they will deny and disagree on the most minutia of subjects but not this. In Casey's interview at one time while she was uhah, uhuh, and hmmhuming responses, it was quite telling that she would get defensive/responsive about something as simple as a phone, or a chair, but not to the murder of her own daughter.

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