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Thread: Flies and Maggots in the trunk - forensic entomology #1

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelray View Post
    Wonder if she was potty trained yet? My grandson just turned three and he is.. I was thinking mine where trained by 2 anyway.
    I would place bets that she was not. With Casey's transiant live style I doubt she had the committment or time to do it. It appears as though Caylee was dragged around so much. This is JMO of course. Age 3 is the "average" age that kids are potty trained normally girls are before boys.
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    Quote Originally Posted by deejaye View Post
    Not a correction by any means, just a thought. It's possible that if there were a body and it had been, let's say, left outside for a day or so, hypothetically, the first of the flies could have gotten on the body then and started laying eggs. Then, maybe, the body was put in the trunk to be moved somewhere and there was transference at that time. Once a couple of them were there, they probably had a field day with whatever there was in there for them to eat. JMO IMO and only based on my limited experience with forensics.

    Yep, your theory works too.....but I really hope the experts can pin down a certain date (better than us...LOL)

    My earlier reply was to post 6, that says "No body in the car before 6/24".

    Seems to me there are several explanations placing a body in the trunk days before the 24th.

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    Did you see that they recovered the white garbage bag that was in Casey's trunk and George and the tow truck guy threw away? I just caught that and see that the sent this to the lab - I wonder if they collected the maggots - they can tell what they were eating . . . now how long does it take to get this evidence back?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoelly View Post
    Did you see that they recovered the white garbage bag that was in Casey's trunk and George and the tow truck guy threw away? I just caught that and see that the sent this to the lab - I wonder if they collected the maggots - they can tell what they were eating . . . now how long does it take to get this evidence back?
    I would bet that they put the maggots in preservative and sent them to an entemologist. Even if all they got were the pupae casings, those would tell the entemologist exactly what species of fly it was, and the entemologist would be able to narrow down the timeline to HOURS, not days.

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    Thanks for the patience with detail and, um,... fortitude, QuickAttack.
    This all needed to be pointed out.
    Would you say that this brings the strange gas can story back into play, in terms of timeline?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tx_Dot View Post
    Yes, on 7/16......collected as evidence, & sent to the lab.
    I'm so glad they were able to collect that bag! I wonder what was left inside it? Such a mystery.

    I'm sure there were still maggots unless it rained heavily or something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sweetwater View Post
    Thanks for the patience with detail and, um,... fortitude, QuickAttack.
    This all needed to be pointed out.
    Would you say that this brings the strange gas can story back into play, in terms of timeline?
    I don't think that George ever saw Casey and retrieved the gas cans from her trunk...I think that was a lie to help establish a defense fact.

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    I'm very sorry for those who have had to deal with a crockpot full of maggots *goes to retch a bit*, but i STILL must insist that maggots do not spontaneously generate.

    It's just not possible. They are not magical creatures who appear to give prophetic messages. Only other flies can produce flies. So at some point during your tasty pot roast dinner, a fly had to have come in contact with your roast and deposited an egg, or just stayed inside before the lid was replaced.

    That's the most palatable idea.

    The other one would be that your roast was rather rare and you didn't fully kill the eggs that may have been there from when the meat was packaged...But we don't have to go there.

  10. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelray View Post
    Wonder if she was potty trained yet? My grandson just turned three and he is.. I was thinking mine where trained by 2 anyway.
    I don't know but they found Caylee's backpack, clothes, doll and toothbrush... no mention of diapers so I'd say she was potty-trained... remember grandma had her most of the time.
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  11. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuickAttack View Post
    I don't think that George ever saw Casey and retrieved the gas cans from her trunk...I think that was a lie to help establish a defense fact.
    Possibly, or he LIED about the date... it wouldn't be the first time a member of the Anthony family did that.
    Truth is not only violated by falsehood; it may be equally outraged by silence.
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    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.
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    All opinions expressed are that... merely my opinions, thoughts, musings as it were.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cjcord View Post
    I'm very sorry for those who have had to deal with a crockpot full of maggots *goes to retch a bit*, but i STILL must insist that maggots do not spontaneously generate.

    It's just not possible. They are not magical creatures who appear to give prophetic messages. Only other flies can produce flies. So at some point during your tasty pot roast dinner, a fly had to have come in contact with your roast and deposited an egg, or just stayed inside before the lid was replaced.

    That's the most palatable idea.

    The other one would be that your roast was rather rare and you didn't fully kill the eggs that may have been there from when the meat was packaged...But we don't have to go there.
    The roast cooked all day on high while I was at work and it was falling apart by the time I got home. So there's no question of it being undercooked. I was thinking about it last night and think a fly must have laid the eggs right on the edge of the lid because of fluid or food particles and once the eggs hatched, the newly hatched maggots are so tiny they were able to slide into the crockpot.
    It happened about 15 years ago and I remember it as if it were yesterday because of that smell and the sight of those maggots. It was horrible. There were screens on all my windows and the door so I have no idea how the original fly got in and knew exactly where to find food.

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    CJ thank you, I may just become a vegetarian now.. lol

    I don't know but they found Caylee's backpack, clothes, doll and toothbrush... no mention of diapers so I'd say she was potty-trained... remember grandma had her most of the time.
    This is a good point; however they don't disclose the contents of the backpack, do they?

    There is also the possibility of an underwear-accident, would give the same result.

    FYI I do believe a corpse is the "most likely" cause, just threw this out there ok. It's all supposition till we have the test results back right?

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    What about the maggots ... Forensic Entomology ... DNA?

    From the onset of this case, it has been reported that GA threw away garbage from the trunk that was infested with maggots. The OCSO had GA retrieve some of the garbage, and I also think I read somewhere that they themselves collected evidence from that same garbage can / dumpster - I think the garbage bag & pizza included (but not limited to) in this collection. I think it is important to note that maggots feeding off of a cadaver can hold the cadaver's dna. While it's been reported in the media by police that they're doing forensic testing on the hair and stain found in CMA's trunk, it hasn't been reported that they actually tested the maggots. Does anyone think this is something the OCSO & FBI are testing? Maggots can provide ALOT of info regarding crimes done to humans.
    Please see this link: http://www.forensicentomology.com/info.htm
    Last edited by Jersey*Girl; 09-04-2008 at 11:37 AM. Reason: Typo in title.

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    I think they are testing EVERYTHING, we are just not privy to all that info......yet!

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    Quote Originally Posted by JustMy2Cents View Post
    I think they are testing EVERYTHING, we are just not privy to all that info......yet!
    Yeah, that's true Pardon the pun, but I'd really love to be a "Fly On The Wall" in their Forensic Lab!

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    I've been wondering about this as well.
    When the chloroform news broke yesterday, I wondered if maggots could be tested for it and if they were.
    It is the nature of the truth to struggle to the light.

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    I think OCSO collected the garbage bag from the car that had been thrown over a fence at the tow yard. I was wondering about this too. I saw a program once where they actually determined the amount of time a person had been deceased by the cycle of the maggots. Sorry to be gross, but that's the nature of forensics I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey Girl View Post
    Yeah, that's true Pardon the pun, but I'd really love to be a "Fly On The Wall" in their Forensic Lab!
    Thanks for the link....I have always thought that the maggots hold more information for LE that anything else. I was so glad to read LE had recovered the bag from the tow company dumpster.

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    Quote Originally Posted by weasel View Post
    I think OCSO collected the garbage bag from the car that had been thrown over a fence at the tow yard. I was wondering about this too. I saw a program once where they actually determined the amount of time a person had been deceased by the cycle of the maggots. Sorry to be gross, but that's the nature of forensics I guess.
    I think I saw that program.
    I also vaguely remember a program where police found a body in a tub, (gross warning) and it had apparently been there long enough for there to be no soft tissue left. Investigators were able to determine the person had OD'd by testing the maggots present for certain substances.
    They can yield a great deal of info, in some situations.
    It is the nature of the truth to struggle to the light.

  21. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by jessunlil View Post
    I've been wondering about this as well.
    When the chloroform news broke yesterday, I wondered if maggots could be tested for it and if they were.
    Exactly ... & I can't get it out of my mind. I think the maggots are a critical part of this case ... they can even give insight regarding the time of death. I wonder if CMA was researching Chloroform as a means to get rid of her parents - so she could have the house her mother was "promising" her (said sarcastically)! Everybody thinks you can only "purchase" Chloroform, however, they're mistaken. You can make a certain "generic form" of Chloroform using household chemicals. People used to use it back in the day as an anaesthesia ... it has since been made illegal. Keep in mind that CMA would only need to go out back to collect Chlorine in order to obtain the most important ingredient! Hmmm ...

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    I agree that the investigation of the maggots would also be helpful in determining alot of specifics important to the death.

    This is another good link with alot of explanation, but warning... it's graphic.

    http://www.deathonline.net/decomposi...lculations.htm


    I just wonder if there were any maggots still present in the trunk though, didn't the Anthonys clean up the car before investigators got it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sweetmop View Post
    I agree that the investigation of the maggots would also be helpful in determining alot of specifics important to the death.

    This is another good link with alot of explanation, but warning... it's graphic.

    http://www.deathonline.net/decomposi...lculations.htm


    I just wonder if there were any maggots still present in the trunk though, didn't the Anthonys clean up the car before investigators got it?
    Thanks for the link! From my understanding, GA did take things out of the trunk in his attempt to clean it up before the OCSO arrived. However, wasn't it reported that the garbage bag that he removed from CMA's trunk had the "maggot filled pizza" in it and it was retrieved by the OCSO that arrived on the scene? I believe the officer put it in a brown paper bag for Forensics. I believe the FBI became involved shortly after.

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    Quote Originally Posted by QuickAttack View Post
    From page 316.

    "[Simon] Birch is the facility manager of the wrecker yard....During he morning of July 15, 2008, while Mr. Birch was working at 7777 Narcoossee Road, Mr. Birch was sumond by witness Nicole Lett. Mrs. Lett was working in the front office of the tow yard and was dealing with two upset customers. Mr. Birch met with George Anthony and Cynthia Anthony. Ms. Anthony was upset with the cost of the tow, the length of the time the car was stowed, and requested a discount. Mr. Birch explained the cost of the tow and storage fees, and explained the notification process to Cynthia Anthony and George Anthony. Mr. Birch refused to give a discount. George Anthony agreed to pay for the release of the white Pontiac, providing the white Pontiac's title and his driver license. Mr. Birch took Mr. Anthony into the tow yard to get the car.

    "As they walked, George Anthony mentioned to Mr. Birch his daughter had been missing for awhile, now she will not allow him to see his granddaughter, and has told him several lies. When they reached the white Pontiac, George Anthony used a key to unlock the white Pontiac's driver side door. When the door opened, a very foul odor came from inside the white Pontiac. Mr. Birch immediately recognised the odor as the same odor he smelled in a car stored on the log in which a man committed suicide inside. The man was reported to have remained deceased in the car for approximately five days. The smell from the white Pontiac was not as strong as the other car. Mr. Birch stated, "That's rotten." George Anthony did not reply. George Anthony and Mr. Birch went to the white Pontiac's trunk in an attempt to locate the source of the odor. George Anthony opened the trunk and he and Mr. Birch observed a white garbage bag inside the trunk. Flies also came out of the trunk. Mr. Birch opened the garbage bag and observed several papers, a pizza box, and maggots. Mr. Birch threw the garbage bag over the fence near the tow lot's dumpster."

    Originally Posted by QuickAttack

    If you have a queasy stomach, PLEASE DO NOT READ THIS.

    I really hate to be morbid, but the documents that were released last night leave little wiggle room.

    The towyard manager said that when he opened the trunk, flies flew out and there were maggots inside.

    A trunk is a sealed environment. Flies will not attempt to enter something like a closed, sealed trunk to lay eggs on a pizza box. Even if that pizza box had pizza in it, it just isn't going to happen. Think about the times you've left a half-eaten hamburger on the floorboard of your car. (I'm guilty of this...commuting to work, high-stress job, forgot about the half Big Mac I left in the car for a week.) Think about the Taco Bell bag you left on the back seat...people with kids will admit that we've occasionally left food in the car and forgotten to remove it.

    Sometime in their life cycle, those flies entered that trunk with Caylee's body.

    I believe that Caylee's body was stored outside somewhere...somewhere that flies could have laid eggs on the corpse. It could have been stored there for as brief as several hours or as long as several days.

    Casey worried that the body would be found wherever she left it. Or maybe she knew the dumpster-emptying schedule for the waste company in Orlando. At any rate, she went back to remove the body from the place she had left it, and she put it in her trunk.

    Possibly, the corpse stayed in the trunk from the time she retrieved it until the second time she dumped it. The second dumping of the corpse could have been done on the evening of the 26th, early AM hours of the 27th (the time window when her car was left at Amscot, parked by the dumpster).

    When she loaded the decomposing corpse into the trunk the second time, fluids leaked out. Clumps of hair fell out. Possibly decomposing flesh detached from the body. Decomposing flesh with maggots already hatching.

    When she removed the body from her trunk (to possibly place in the Amscot dumpster), some of those pieces of flesh with maggots were left behind, possibly on the white garbage bag in the trunk.

    This would explain why there were flies and maggots in the trunk when the towyard manager opened it.

    Let's look at a generalized life cycle of the species of flies that assists in decomposition of a body (if we knew the exact species, we could be less generalized in the life cycle):

    From egg to larva (maggot) is 2-5 days. Until day 5, the larvae are feeding on the body.

    The larvae move away from the body to become pupae, and are adult flies on day 19 or 20. Adult flies feed on body fluids, mate immediately after emergence, and lay eggs within two days of emergence...and the cycle begins again.

    So, to summarize this:

    Day 1 - eggs laid.

    Day 2 - eggs hatch.

    Day 2 to 5 - larvae move into and around the body, feeding.

    Day 6 to 19 - pupa stage, no feeding on corpse, mature flies will emerge from the hard case.

    Day 20 - adult fly emerges, feeds.

    Day 22 - adult fly lays eggs on corpse.

    Therefore, the flies that were found in the trunk were second generation flies, as were the maggots, because the car sat sealed at the towyard for 16 days. The second generation had already emerged and begun laying eggs, which had hatched into maggot staged larvae.

    I can't wait to see what a forensic entomologist will reveal about this case. I think that the transport of the corpse can be nailed down to within a couple of days using the life cycle of the flies that flew out of the trunk on July 16th.
    Oops, sorry QuickAttack , I didn't see this thread having been started before. Whomever linked them together, thanks.

  25. #49
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    Trunk = Pandora's box

    If this subject has been discussed already - please forgive me for re-visiting.

    IMO, the trunk of Casey's car is like Pandora's box which contains the key to the mystery of this case.

    June 17-18 - Casey at her home, parked car with the Trunk facing garage (never done this before based on neighbor's observation); borrow the shovel. Trunk is opened or closed? - don't know, neighbor couldn't see;
    June 24 - Casey at her home, George opens the Trunk, gets out 2 gas cans and tool. No garbage bag(s), no foul smell (otherwise he would mention this during interview w/Greta); what else did he see inside? Any cleaning detergents? Any backpacks?;
    June 27-30 - car is abandon, not locked; parked next to the dumpster (inconveniently parked, without gas); Trunk closed, nobody complains about smell. Question: can Trunk be opened without key, from inside of the car? This is very important because from this point on if Trunk can be opened from inside - anyone has access to it!!!
    June 30 July 15 - car at the tow-lot; smell is noticeable; again, if Trunk can be opened from inside - anyone has access to it!!!
    July 15 - Trunk is opened by George/Cindy/tow-lot manager; garbage bag is there (including old pizza and some other stuff) has been disposed and later collected from dumpster by LE. What else? According to Cindy in regards to the 'dark spot' and the smell of the Trunk, she said it was usual that Trunk would have the soiled diapers and cleaning detergents (surprised she didn't mention the gas cans because it would be logical to claim the 'dark spot' and smell to prior possible gas leakage). However, when LE made the list of confiscated items from the Trunk - the cleaning detergents were NOT there. Question to tow-lot manager: what else did he see inside of the Trunk beside garbage bag? This is very important because if he saw something which is not on LE list then opportunity to evidence tampering exist not only for Cindy/George/Lee but for Casey as well (the time between Cindy picking her up from Tony and police arriving) - we're talking here approx 1.5 HOURS of opportunity!

    As of today, all 'shocking evidences' comes from the Trunk: 'dead body' smell, hair, even chloroform...I'm sure much more will come soon...I'm wondering, who saw what and when (her friends, b/f) inside of the Trunk at any given time at any given place? Every detail is important! If Casey was buying grocery or any large items from June 16 - where did she store them: inside of the Trunk or on back seat? When she was driving with Tony (or any one else) did she ever use Trunk after June 16?

    When you have a 3 year old toddler - the Trunk is your right hand. Stroller, diaper bags, toys...especially in Florida when wheater is so convinient for outside activities...I cannot imagine when you have baby and need to travel every day to babysitter - to use Trunk for the garbage storage and cleaning detergents...

  26. #50
    I hope when G and C were cleaning up the trunk that at least ONE tiny maggot escaped them and was later found by LE and THAT maggot will be the undoing of Casey's lies...especially after C had the audacity to call everyone who is grieving for THEIR granddaughter a MAGGOT! I pray that a maggot saves the day! and identifies Caylee's killer!

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