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Thread: Zodiac's Identity Finally Discovered? Man Turns Hood/Weapon into FBI

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malapoo View Post
    You could always hand someone some mail asking them to drop it off for you. They may notice you didn't seal one, and back in those days, wouldn't necessarily think anything of sealing it for you.
    Possible. What is needed is to identify the source of that DNA. Until that is done, it is useless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Missouri Mule View Post
    Possible. What is needed is to identify the source of that DNA. Until that is done, it is useless.
    Apparenty the people who were doing the DNA analysis never got to pursue and finish much of the work and follow up they wanted to do on the case because the project was essentialy shut down becasue certain brass in the SFPD were resentful over the publicity they were recieving and it became somewhat of a poltical p*ssing match.
    The upshot is that as far as I know no research at all is being done on the case in that area.

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    Does anyone have any thoughts about Bob Tarbox (the Zodiac's lawyer)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnjaypl View Post
    Does anyone have any thoughts about Bob Tarbox (the Zodiac's lawyer)?
    I think he is a crank. In any event he only claims that someone who said he was Zodiac came to his office and Tarbox only revealed this conversation out of respect to his late law partner or some such reason. The retainer of sorts was like $50. There are always a lot of people who are false confessors who for some reason for another do these things. Even if the individual were found unless that person could actually be tied to the crimes there would be no case. Recall what happened with the matter of the Jon Benet Ramsey case. That fizzled on the vine.

    When Tarbox first surfaced with his advertisement that I believe cost him some $1,200 virtually everyone went crazy with anticipation of where this would lead. In the end it was yet another dead end of frustration.

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    Tarbox only revealed this conversation out of respect to his late law partner or some such reason.
    As I understand it, he revealed his Zodiac contact in an effort to inform the Allen family that Art Allen was not the Zodiac.

    He said his legal constraints still remian but his personal constraints to his former law partner and his law partners wife ended with their death. As far as I can tell, the law partners wife did die a short time before Tarbox took out his add.

    I think he is a crank.
    Why do you think that?

    I don't know much about Tarbox but I haven't seen much that would make me not believe what he says. That being, some guy, who Tarbox thought was a plausible Zodiac suspect, bought some legal advice about "legal jeopardy based on the facts provided."

    I also read that the Zodiac told Tarbox that he was going to stop killing, which he seems to have done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnjaypl View Post
    As I understand it, he revealed his Zodiac contact in an effort to inform the Allen family that Art Allen was not the Zodiac.

    He said his legal constraints still remian but his personal constraints to his former law partner and his law partners wife ended with their death. As far as I can tell, the law partners wife did die a short time before Tarbox took out his add.

    Why do you think that?

    I don't know much about Tarbox but I haven't seen much that would make me not believe what he says. That being, some guy, who Tarbox thought was a plausible Zodiac suspect, bought some legal advice about "legal jeopardy based on the facts provided."

    I also read that the Zodiac told Tarbox that he was going to stop killing, which he seems to have done.
    If Tarbox actually knew something worth knowing he should have revealed it long ago. I realize there is this thing called client/attorney privilege but to come forth some 35 years later with a story that has no supporting information except his word and the claim he was paid a small retainer years ago does not provide me much in the way of credibility. Additionally, when this first came to light this was discussed all over the internet with trying to find out whether he even existed and where he currently lived. In the end, and to my knowledge, everyone who had looked at the case concluded this was his "15 minutes of fame" and that was all it was.

    I can't imagine why he would be concerned about the "Allen family." So far as I know his parents are long deceased and at least some of his family by marriage believed that Allen was up to his eyeballs in some striking unusual activity. You could read the accounts in Graysmith's books which speak to this subject. Who is even alive among the Allen family that cares about Allen's reputation? I'm unaware of them.

    I'm not a lawyer but how does the death of his law partner and wife release him from this allegedly confidential conversation? Since Allen is long deceased and this other individual, presumably is known by Tarbox he could ascertain if the other person still survives and if deceased that confidentiality should end at that time since there is no way to cause personal harm to this individual. I don't believe a deceased person has the rights and privileges of a living person. The least Tarbox should do is to tell us whether or not this person is still living. This link discusses this issue more in depth and provides the same conclusions I arrived at. I merely googled "zodiac tarbox" and this came up.

    http://aztectalk3.proboards88.com/in...t&thread=21993

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    If Tarbox actually knew something worth knowing he should have revealed it long ago.
    I agree. I think he should have turned him in as soon as Zodiac left his office.
    Legal ethics are important, stopping a madman is more important. It's a question of good judgement and Tarbox doesn't have it- as far as I'm concerned.

    However, I suspect a lot of folks would say he did the proper thing. They would say that the legal system would break down if lawyers started turning in their clients. They may be right.

    I realize there is this thing called client/attorney privilege but to come forth some 35 years later with a story that has no supporting information except his word and the claim he was paid a small retainer years ago does not provide me much in the way of credibility.
    The only Tarbox credibility we have is:

    Tarbox was a lawyer at the right place and time.

    Tarbox had connections with Vallejo and San Francisco

    Tarbox said Z was a Merchant Marine. A Merchant Marine could have taken a cipher training course and the Army cipher folks said they thought the person who wrote the code was probably trained by them. A merchant marine could also have connections with Vallejo and the Presido and all the other military tid bits.

    Tarbox's partners wife did die a few months before he took out his add.

    Now Tarbox didn't say much, but the few things he did say seem credible to me.

    Additionally, when this first came to light this was discussed all over the internet with trying to find out whether he even existed and where he currently lived
    Tarbox told people where he lived. He was a real person, not hard to find. From the description of an interview he gave to one person he seemed credible when talked to in the flesh.

    In the end, and to my knowledge, everyone who had looked at the case concluded this was his "15 minutes of fame" and that was all it was.
    While I've read some comments like this I haven't read any credible reasons to conclude that Tarbox is the kind of man who would do this as a "stunt". And if he was he could have milked it for a lot more "minutes of fame" then he got. I think some of these folks should be more worried about their credibility than Tarbox's credibility.

    I can't imagine why he would be concerned about the "Allen family." So far as I know his parents are long deceased and at least some of his family by marriage believed that Allen was up to his eyeballs in some striking unusual activity. You could read the accounts in Graysmith's books which speak to this subject. Who is even alive among the Allen family that cares about Allen's reputation? I'm unaware of them.
    I don't know who's left in Vallejo that Tarbox was trying to reach. I wonder if there was a specific person, or persons. Maybe Tarbox was really talking about himself when he said in his add "I perceived this confession to be of a cathartic nature." Maybe Tarbox just needed to get if off his chest.

    I'm not a lawyer but how does the death of his law partner and wife release him from this allegedly confidential conversation?
    Tarbox explains this about as clearly as it can be explained. "I have been under both legal and personal constraints with regard to this matter. The legal constraints still remain, but the personal constraints were severed by the death of my law partner and recent death of his wife."

    I think Tarbox doesn't think that he violated his legal constraints with the add. It sounds to me like he told his partner and his partners wife about his new client and they agreed not to release this information. I can't imagine how any of them went back to work in the same building. I gather that they didn't for long.

    this other individual, presumably is known by Tarbox he could ascertain if the other person still survives and if deceased that confidentiality should end at that time since there is no way to cause personal harm to this individual. I don't believe a deceased person has the rights and privileges of a living person. The least Tarbox should do is to tell us whether or not this person is still living.
    He could do what you say but he just doesn't seem to think that way. Maybe he still thinks of himself as a defense lawyer, his job being to keep his clients out of jail. Maybe he thinks it's someone elses job to catch Z. Like I said at the beginning of this, I think Tarbox's judgement is really wrong about this but I"m sure there are other who think he was doing what a lawyer is supposed to do.

    If Tarbox's information is correct, then all of the suspects that you read about on the internet are not the Zodiac.

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    If anything.....this is very interesting.....and cannot wait to hear the dna results.
    This bee my opinion

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    Quote Originally Posted by nursebeeme View Post
    If anything.....this is very interesting.....and cannot wait to hear the dna results.
    Hi. DNA results did come in and it could not rule him out. They are doing further tests so see what can come of it.
    Only my opinion, no one else need agree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnjaypl View Post
    I agree. I think he should have turned him in as soon as Zodiac left his office.

    Legal ethics are important, stopping a madman is more important. It's a question of good judgement and Tarbox doesn't have it- as far as I'm concerned.

    However, I suspect a lot of folks would say he did the proper thing. They would say that the legal system would break down if lawyers started turning in their clients. They may be right.

    The only Tarbox credibility we have is:

    Tarbox was a lawyer at the right place and time.

    Tarbox had connections with Vallejo and San Francisco

    Tarbox said Z was a Merchant Marine. A Merchant Marine could have taken a cipher training course and the Army cipher folks said they thought the person who wrote the code was probably trained by them. A merchant marine could also have connections with Vallejo and the Presido and all the other military tid bits.

    Tarbox's partners wife did die a few months before he took out his add.

    Now Tarbox didn't say much, but the few things he did say seem credible to me.

    Tarbox told people where he lived. He was a real person, not hard to find. From the description of an interview he gave to one person he seemed credible when talked to in the flesh.

    While I've read some comments like this I haven't read any credible reasons to conclude that Tarbox is the kind of man who would do this as a "stunt". And if he was he could have milked it for a lot more "minutes of fame" then he got. I think some of these folks should be more worried about their credibility than Tarbox's credibility.

    I don't know who's left in Vallejo that Tarbox was trying to reach. I wonder if there was a specific person, or persons. Maybe Tarbox was really talking about himself when he said in his add "I perceived this confession to be of a cathartic nature." Maybe Tarbox just needed to get if off his chest.

    Tarbox explains this about as clearly as it can be explained. "I have been under both legal and personal constraints with regard to this matter. The legal constraints still remain, but the personal constraints were severed by the death of my law partner and recent death of his wife."

    I think Tarbox doesn't think that he violated his legal constraints with the add. It sounds to me like he told his partner and his partners wife about his new client and they agreed not to release this information. I can't imagine how any of them went back to work in the same building. I gather that they didn't for long.

    He could do what you say but he just doesn't seem to think that way. Maybe he still thinks of himself as a defense lawyer, his job being to keep his clients out of jail. Maybe he thinks it's someone elses job to catch Z. Like I said at the beginning of this, I think Tarbox's judgment is really wrong about this but I"m sure there are other who think he was doing what a lawyer is supposed to do.

    If Tarbox's information is correct, then all of the suspects that you read about on the internet are not the Zodiac.
    I would think that everything would rest on whether or not the individual in Tarbox's office was actually Zodiac. How would Tarbox know that? That Tarbox is a real person is not in question. His location and even he was interviewed shortly after the advertisement was placed. But beyond the fact the he "believes" that this person was in fact Zodiac, I don't know how it has any relevance. One could spend months reading just on the internet about what various individuals believe is true about Zodiac. There is a virtual industry built of cultists who keep this story alive.

    I am 99.99999% certain that Allen was Zodic. There is not merely a mountain of evidence he was Zodiac. There is an entire mountain range of circumstantial evidence that he was Zodiac. To my knowledge, there is not a single investigator who actually worked the case who believes it was anyone else. Certainly there is not even so much as a shred of evidence exonerating him. The DNA, not knowing who and where it came from is of no value whatever unless it could be traced to a known individual. The repetition of those who obviously have some vested interest in promoting the idea it wasn't Allen keep pointing at the DNA and saying it exonerates him. Having worked with DNA and knowing how it is to be handled, any evidence of this nature from any of the crime scenes is completely and absolutely worthless unless it can be connected with a known individual.

    If anyone wants to produce anything that would disprove my contention that it was Allen, they are welcome to do so. To my knowledge, the only known proof of who Zodiac was are to be found only at the Lake murder. The weight, height and description of Zodiac was obtained by two highly reliable witnesses; one who died and one who survives. Zodiac was in excess of 230 pounds and approximately 6 feet tall, wore "wingwalker" boots and had a size 10.5 size. Allen fits that description in all respects. Finally, at no time could Allen be placed outside the areas where any of the known, proven Zodiac murders took place. Therefore, there is no definitive way to eliminate him as a suspect but there is a mountain of circumstantial evidence. To sum up, I believe the case is dead until and unless reliable evidence and witnesses produce a viable suspect. And I don't see that happening. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

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    That Tarbox is a real person is not in question. His location and even he was interviewed shortly after the advertisement was placed.
    I agree. It's just that when people make comments like:

    Additionally, when this first came to light this was discussed all over the internet with trying to find out whether he even existed and where he currently lived.
    you have to pick them apart and show them for what they are worth.

    I would think that everything would rest on whether or not the individual in Tarbox's office was actually Zodiac.
    I agree. I'll get back to this in a bit.

    One could spend months reading just on the internet about what various individuals believe is true about Zodiac. There is a virtual industry built of cultists who keep this story alive.
    Sad but true. The key word here is "industry". There are a lot of people who are trying to, and in some cases sucessfully, making money on the zodiac story. They try to make up for their lack of proof by adding up a lot of small circumstantial evidence which never amounted to enough to make an arrest. While these folks try to make money from this tragedy, recklessly accusing anyone they think they can get away with accusing without getting sued, Tarbox spent his money to tell his story.

    I am 99.99999% certain that Allen was Zodic.
    It seems to me that folks like you are the reason Tarbox came forward.

    If anyone wants to produce anything that would disprove my contention that it was Allen, they are welcome to do so.
    Fortunately, we live in society where that's not the way it works.

    Getting back to:

    I would think that everything would rest on whether or not the individual in Tarbox's office was actually Zodiac. How would Tarbox know that?
    I don't think he could be certain that he was visited by Z, and we have to rely on Tarbox's judgment to decide how credible his story is. We know Tarbox was a criminal attorney, I imagine he had a better sense of this kind of judgment than the average person would. He talked to Z for a couple of hours about details of the crime. It's hard for me to imagine that a run of the mill nut off the street could convince Tarbox that they were guilty. And then there's the whole question of why would they even want to. Of course it's easy to make up reasons. Maybe someone wanted to play a joke on Tarbox. Maybe they wanted to settle a score by having someone scare the s out of him. Or maybe it was Z, trying to turn his life around, as Tarbox seems to believe. Maybe someday Tarbox will release the name of his Z and maybe then we'll find out more- until then we just don't know.

    I would be interested in learning more about Tarbox though. What did he do with his life after practicing law in CA?

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    This post has a lot of merit, IMO

    Quote Originally Posted by SweetDreamOfYou View Post
    ok not a lot i can add here but a reminder how the world has changed. when i was a little girl if we didn't have a stamp laying around to mail a letter we simply taped or paperclipped a coin to the letter and threw it in the nearest mail box. the letters always arrived so one has to assume the mailman licked a stamp and put it on the letter.
    lol ok now i have admitted how old i am i will leave u to ur discussion.
    We know Zodiac was a weird bird, no matter what. Maybe, ordinarily, he had a social phobia.. Was a loner, was a failure, did live in a boarding house or other less than sterling housing conditions despite his intellect.

    It seems very possible to me that the letter could definitely be authentic, yet the DNA not match any suspect, learning of this " leave the money for postage" thing. I am now vaguely remembering similar episodes with our mailman from my childhood.
    If you had 10 cents or whatever for the stamp, the postman would take the money and put the stamp on the letter for you. I believe my mother taped coins on letters at times.. I guess the USPS would put the stamps on in those cases? I was a child, so forgive me for not knowing what they did, exactly. Maybe just put the cancelled stamp on the envelope and sent it on its way to delivery?

    Why has this not been discussed or considered before now? I think it is immensely possible. I think it answers the question of why no DNA match on the stamp better than anything I have read prior. It resonates with me as being authentic. I also think that for the over- 40 crowd, it would make enormous sense as to why ALA's DNA was not even a partial match on the stamp.

    Don't even suggest that they look for the mailmen on the route!! NO WAY!! I know how your collective minds work. This is probaby " not a DNA case", just like experts still say about some more modern cases.

    There are some cases I put in the " probably will never know" file in my mind, while I still concern myself with them. Zodiac is up there, along with Jack the Ripper, and some modern cases still in the public eye.
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    Zodiac Suspect Investigation Heads Out Of State

    The FBI's investigation to unmask the Zodiac Killer has expanded into another state and authorities are now working to determine a connection to a murder victim that was never linked to the infamous Bay Area serial killer.

    http://cbs13.com/local/zodiac.suspec....2.841657.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by chicoliving View Post
    The FBI's investigation to unmask the Zodiac Killer has expanded into another state and authorities are now working to determine a connection to a murder victim that was never linked to the infamous Bay Area serial killer.

    http://cbs13.com/local/zodiac.suspec....2.841657.html
    Chilling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnjaypl View Post
    I agree. It's just that when people make comments like:

    you have to pick them apart and show them for what they are worth.

    I agree. I'll get back to this in a bit.

    Sad but true. The key word here is "industry". There are a lot of people who are trying to, and in some cases sucessfully, making money on the zodiac story. They try to make up for their lack of proof by adding up a lot of small circumstantial evidence which never amounted to enough to make an arrest. While these folks try to make money from this tragedy, recklessly accusing anyone they think they can get away with accusing without getting sued, Tarbox spent his money to tell his story.

    It seems to me that folks like you are the reason Tarbox came forward.

    Fortunately, we live in society where that's not the way it works.

    Getting back to:

    I don't think he could be certain that he was visited by Z, and we have to rely on Tarbox's judgment to decide how credible his story is. We know Tarbox was a criminal attorney, I imagine he had a better sense of this kind of judgment than the average person would. He talked to Z for a couple of hours about details of the crime. It's hard for me to imagine that a run of the mill nut off the street could convince Tarbox that they were guilty. And then there's the whole question of why would they even want to. Of course it's easy to make up reasons. Maybe someone wanted to play a joke on Tarbox. Maybe they wanted to settle a score by having someone scare the s out of him. Or maybe it was Z, trying to turn his life around, as Tarbox seems to believe. Maybe someday Tarbox will release the name of his Z and maybe then we'll find out more- until then we just don't know.

    I would be interested in learning more about Tarbox though. What did he do with his life after practicing law in CA?
    People "like me" are interested in facts. All we know about Tarbox is that he is retired and living in another state, has been found, interviewed, seen to be lucid but there is no evidence that the individual who alleged he was Zodiac was in fact Zodiac. I don't see his "15 minutes" as having any relevant value to the investigation. Zodiac has been dead for 16 years now and he isn't rising from the dead. It's over.

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    How do you know that z is dead. I happen to live in Napa Valley at the time the Z was killing.
    I was on a school bus that the cops follow to school and back bcause of one of his threat.
    I follow anything about the z case. did i miss something????

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    Quote Originally Posted by tfrohning View Post
    How do you know that z is dead. I happen to live in Napa Valley at the time the Z was killing.
    I was on a school bus that the cops follow to school and back bcause of one of his threat.
    I follow anything about the z case. did i miss something????
    I was of course expressing an opinion based on the known facts. It would come down to having a reasonable doubt. I have no reasonable doubt as to his identity.

    The only murder that he ever committed where he left provable evidence was at the Lake murder. That leads to one certain individual. It comes down to circumstantial evidence and elimination of suspects. Only one suspect has EVER been considered as the suspect by the investigators who actually worked the case. He died in 1992.

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    FBI Gathers DNA Evidence From Tarrance's Son

    Charles is turning over items that once belonged to his late father. These objects could provide a DNA link to serial killer. Those objects include inhalers, a toothbrush, and a comb.

    "It has his hair on it," said Charles. "It's an open investigation; all I know is that they want more items…that is what we're doing"

    Dennis Kaufman, Charles' half brother, built a strong enough case against his stepfather to pique the FBI's interest.

    "I'm glad he's helping me," said Dennis. "It's a relief because for years we didn't talk because of this thing."

    http://cbs13.com/local/evidence.DNA.jack.2.865237.html

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    Thank you for the update!

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    Any new info?
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    Quote Originally Posted by badhorsie View Post
    Completely off topic, sorry BUT I am not familiar with this case and will have to read about it but wasn't Jack Torrance the character Jack Nicholson played in "The Shining" ?
    Probably got it wrong knowing me
    i know lol, i kept seeing jack torrance too, and it creeped me out and made me think that this jack would have ran around going 'heeeere's johnny!' if he were the zodiac killer.

    i need to sleep. overactive imagination.
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    Hello ..Im just wondering if theres been any new info . If what this son said he found the mask and a knife i forget all what he found now but i found it to be pretty interesting even if they cant get his dna shouldnt some of the items be able to be matched to the victoms like i thought i read there was dried blood on the knife he found and some pictures i just cant remember what all he said he found .
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    Quote Originally Posted by arielilane View Post
    I cannot stress enough how much I am waiting to hear the results of the testing on the items, specifically the hooded outfit and the knife!!!

    I think Allen was already ruled out due to DNA not a match. I am leaning toward some creditability that the Zodiac killer may have been JT. This case reminds me of BKT, although I think Zodiac is dead.
    Allen was not ruled out due to his DNA not matching. Apparently, Allen never licked his own stamps, claiming it made him sick.
    http://www.zodiackiller.com/AllenFile.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missouri Mule View Post
    DNA was known of as far back as 1953. The Zodiac murders began in the late 1960s. Since DNA is a unique marker it would not have required much imagination to realize the potential of keeping the DNA from the crime scenes.

    Whoever Zodiac was, it is obvious this was no ordinary criminal. He went to great lengths to throw the investigation off on trails leading nowhere. I don't see any point in all the emphasis in the ciphers. It certainly took up a lot of time of various people but it solved nothing to break the code. And the handprinting was smart in that handprinting versus handwriting can be easily misinterpreted as coming from any number of people while handwriting is extremely difficult to disguise. Then of course we know that the primary suspect was ambidextrious and if I recall correctly had an extremely high IQ and was involved in chemical analysis or related field.

    The fingerprints and DNA from the crime scenes, are in my view, totally worthless unless they can be traced to a specific individual. The ONLY clues to the identity are to be found at the lake murder which due to the unfortunate circumstances where Cynthia Shepard essentially bled out but nonetheless allowed the first responding officer to go over carefully with her and subsequently the survivor to arrive at the approximate height and weight of Zodiac. We have the identification of the boot print as being a wingwalker, size 10.5 and with a comparison of the deputy it was determined the weight of Zodiac as being in excess of 230 pounds. All of the other alleged evidence proves nothing at all.

    The circumstantial case is overwhelming in my opinion. I've seen nothing to persuades me that it could be anyone else except the only serious suspect of this case and certainly there is nothing to eliminate him as a suspect.
    Actually, DNA was known of far earlier than that, first isolated in 1869 by a Swiss scientist. In the 50's Watson and Crick developed the first accurate model of the structure of DNA but shortly before that, the fact that DNA plays a part in heredity was established.
    However, it doesn't matter that DNA was known of at the time the Zodiac mailed letters in connection with his crimes: DNA testing of the kind used to identify people was not created/discovered until 1984, long after the Zodiac was active in his criminal activities and letter writing to police and newspapers.
    So, I don't believe the mere knowledge that DNA existed and could be linked to heredity would have caused any criminal in the 1960's or early 70's to try to cover their tracks by having another person lick a stamp or otherwise try to avoid putting their DNA on a stamp. At that time, there was no knowledge that DNA could actually be used to id a person through testing.
    For Travis Alexander, a human being. Justice will prevail.


    *Gitana (means "Gypsy girl"). Pronounced "hee tah nah."

  29. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by gitana1 View Post
    Allen was not ruled out due to his DNA not matching. Apparently, Allen never licked his own stamps, claiming it made him sick.
    http://www.zodiackiller.com/AllenFile.html
    Here are some things that make me scratch my noggin

    January 1969: Allen allegedly confided in Don Cheney that he intended to kill couples at random, threaten school children in taunting letters to the police and call himself "Zodiac."

    Ok, I'd write it off as something to not take too seriously unless I thought the guy was a total wingnut but let's say he didn't take him seriously. Why then when the Zodiac became news didn't he immediately step forward?

    Oct. 10, 1969: Allen supposedly told Ralph Spinelli he would soon be "going to San Francisco to kill a cabbie."


    Why didn't that guy come forward?

    It seems to fit too well and yet doesn't make sense.
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