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Thread: Casey & Family Psychological Profile #2

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    Casey & Family Psychological Profile #2

    Discuss the family dynamics and psychological profiles of Casey and family in a constructive way, please do so here.
    thanks.

    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70260"]Casey & Family Psychological Profile #1[/ame]


    Psychopathy checklist:

    The 30 characteristics of the manipulator (psychopath, in French "perverse narcissist") from the book "Les manipulateurs sont parmi nous" by Isabelle Nazare Aga.

    In order for a person to be a psychopath, at least 14 items from this list must be present as permanent traits. For example item 18: almost everyone has told a lie at some points in their life, but item 18 only applies if a person uses lies as a habitual strategy.

    [] 1 Burdens others with guilt while appealing to family ties, friendship, professional ethics;
    [] 2 evades responsibilities or pushes them onto others;
    [] 3 remains vague in the communication of his/her claims, needs, feelings and opinions;
    [] 4 often gives vague answers;
    [] 5 changes opinion, behaviour and feelings depending on people and situations;
    [] 6 makes use of logical arguments to camouflage claims;
    [] 7 wants to make others believe that they have to be perfect, that they can never change their mind, that they have to know everything and have to respond immediately to claims and questions;
    [] 8 disputes the qualities, the ability and the personality of others;
    criticises without giving that impression, despises and condemns;
    [] 9 lets others convey his/her messages;
    [] 10 creates havoc (fights), creates distrust, divides to be better able to rule;
    [] 11 positions himself/herself as a victim to elicit compassion;
    [] 12 ignores or does not honour requests even if he/she declares that they will be taken care of;
    [] 13 misuses ethical principles of others to serve own interests;
    [] 14 threatens in underhanded ways or commits open chantage (blackmail);
    [] 15 suddenly changes the subject in the course of a conversation;
    [] 16 avoids or flees relationships and togetherness;
    [] 17 targets the ignorance of others and creates an impression of superiority;
    [] 18 lies;
    [] 19 tells lies to find out the truth
    [] 20 is egocentric;
    [] 21 can be jealous;
    [] 22 does not bear criticism and negates evidence;
    [] 23 does not care for the rights, opinions and wishes of others;
    [] 24 often uses the very last moment to give commands to others or to instigate them to act;
    [] 25 his/her words seem to be logical or coherent while the attitude and behaviour give evidence of the opposite;
    [] 26 he/she exerts himself/herself in making compliments in order to gain your sympathy, gives presents, becomes suddenly very caring for you;
    [] 27 gives you an uneasy, unfree feeling;
    [] 28 extremely expert in accomplishing own goals, but at the expense of others;
    [] 29 pressures us to do things that we would not do of our own accord;
    [] 30 is the subject of conversations all the time, even if he/she is not present.
    Last edited by BondJamesBond; 01-06-2011 at 11:33 PM. Reason: adjust title

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    Casey's psychological profile #2

    Please continue posting here.

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    <Wikipedia as an authoritative source? Surely, you jest?>

    Interesting that you say that after you provided no links in either post...just a theory that you present as facts and the "truth" regarding any differences between sociopaths and psychopaths. However, are you disputing that the quote is indeed the official stance of the APA? If you are, I suggest you pick up a copy of the DSM and review. If not, what is your point?

    As I indicated in another post, what you put out there as "fact" is only one of many theories involving the definitions and distinctions of psychopathy and sociopathy vs. antisocial personality disorder. Again, I ask, please provide a link and explain that you are sharing what you believe to be an accurate description of such differences, and not the only or the accepted definitions of such "syndromes". I am not disputing the information you are sharing as I know there are many who have this view. Instead I have issue with how you present it...as fact. How many different distinctions and definitions of sociopath and psychopath would say are out there? There are significant differences among any diagnositic category within the DSM...not all people diagnosed with Bipolar exhibit the same symptoms or intensity of symptoms, not all those with OCD, PTSD, etc., etc. It isn't a matter of overlooking differences, within people or within a diagnosis. It is a matter of stating 'this is one way to look at it" rather than "this is how it is."


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    People with personality issues aren't like people who join a country club. Simply having "membership" in one disorder or another doesn't mean that the individual won't have his/her own unique slants. Arguing the differences is really an academic exercise that makes it difficult for even most professionals to agree. I believe the only issue at hand should be whether Casey can ever make the claim for temporary insanity. Insanity, we all must remember, is a legal term and not one used in psychology or psychiatry.

    You'll all recall she was administered a psych eval which was then sealed by the court. Until that comes out, we can only speculate. That isn't a bad thing, but getting mired in the details seems futile. We ultimately don't get to make that determination anyway. All we can do is observe and state what is observed while attempting to explain it. Observation and explanation are of course based on one's experiences in life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by debs View Post
    People with personality issues aren't like people who join a country club. Simply having "membership" in one disorder or another doesn't mean that the individual won't have his/her own unique slants. Arguing the differences is really an academic exercise that makes it difficult for even most professionals to agree. I believe the only issue at hand should be whether Casey can ever make the claim for temporary insanity. Insanity, we all must remember, is a legal term and not one used in psychology or psychiatry.

    You'll all recall she was administered a psych eval which was then sealed by the court. Until that comes out, we can only speculate. That isn't a bad thing, but getting mired in the details seems futile. We ultimately don't get to make that determination anyway. All we can do is observe and state what is observed while attempting to explain it. Observation and explanation are of course based on one's experiences in life.
    Betty Boop

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    Quote Originally Posted by debs View Post
    People with personality issues aren't like people who join a country club. Simply having "membership" in one disorder or another doesn't mean that the individual won't have his/her own unique slants. Arguing the differences is really an academic exercise that makes it difficult for even most professionals to agree. I believe the only issue at hand should be whether Casey can ever make the claim for temporary insanity. Insanity, we all must remember, is a legal term and not one used in psychology or psychiatry.

    You'll all recall she was administered a psych eval which was then sealed by the court. Until that comes out, we can only speculate. That isn't a bad thing, but getting mired in the details seems futile. We ultimately don't get to make that determination anyway. All we can do is observe and state what is observed while attempting to explain it. Observation and explanation are of course based on one's experiences in life.
    I agree with your post, well most of it anyway. For example, John Doe and Jane Doe "fit" the criteria for sociopath. Are there significant differences between John and Jane? John Doe will also have significant similarities with Jake Doe who was determined to be a psychopath by someone's definition. Throw into the mix the fact that there are thousands of studies which use hundreds of definitions of such constructs. There are also different ways of measuring each characteristic. You then have very different theoretical views which affect how one defines symptoms and causes.

    Diagnosis of mental health problems is not an exact science. You commonly see a person given completely different diagnoses from two or more equally qualified clinicians. You now see the difficulty the APA has when they are faced with the tasks of developing diagnostic categories. Their goal is to be accurate/specific without attempting to fit people into even smaller "boxes".

    The part of your post I don't agree with is that our interest here should be confined to the insanity issue. I think that would be a short conversation. I'm all for sharing opinions as long as we clearly state they are opinions. I guess the only "opinion" that matters regarding the legal aspect with be the diagnosis Casey receives in any psych eval presented to the court. That diagnosis will come from the DSM-IV-TR.


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    Quote Originally Posted by debs View Post
    You'll all recall she was administered a psych eval which was then sealed by the court. Until that comes out, we can only speculate. That isn't a bad thing, but getting mired in the details seems futile. We ultimately don't get to make that determination anyway. All we can do is observe and state what is observed while attempting to explain it. Observation and explanation are of course based on one's experiences in life.
    If you look at the motions and court file you can see that two different doctors evaluated Casey (back when there were undisclosed holds on her for bail). At that time I took note of the doctors names and looked them up in Florida to see if either had any particular specializations. Both looked to me like they were used by the Court from time to time and nothing jumped out at me as either of them laying heavily in any particular specialization. I can look again if anyone is interested (I won't name names but you can look them up if you want to see for yourselves).
    T

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theonly1 View Post
    If you look at the motions and court file you can see that two different doctors evaluated Casey (back when there were undisclosed holds on her for bail). At that time I took note of the doctors names and looked them up in Florida to see if either had any particular specializations. Both looked to me like they were used by the Court from time to time and nothing jumped out at me as either of them laying heavily in any particular specialization. I can look again if anyone is interested (I won't name names but you can look them up if you want to see for yourselves).
    T
    Could you pm the names? I want to check something out. TIA

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    Quote Originally Posted by softsoul View Post
    The part of your post I don't agree with is that our interest here should be confined to the insanity issue. I think that would be a short conversation. I'm all for sharing opinions as long as we clearly state they are opinions. I guess the only "opinion" that matters regarding the legal aspect with be the diagnosis Casey receives in any psych eval presented to the court. That diagnosis will come from the DSM-IV-TR.
    Then you misunderstand: There's a vast discussion to be had about whether she can claim insanity as a defense. I never implied that was all we could discuss, however. It seemed as though discussion was getting mired in whether she was socio or psycho....and since even the experts have difficulty with the distinction, it made more sense to allow that she could have gone "shopping" in the pathological personality disorders department and has aspects of a lot of things. To be "right" as an amateur with nothing but sideliine seats about something that experts have already evaluated her for seems a pissing contest that is more divisive than helpful. That is all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by winteryns View Post
    Could you pm the names? I want to check something out. TIA
    Sure. And if you want to be Nosey Nancy then put "My Orange Clerk" in a google search engine or click on the My Orange Clerk site for Orlando, Orange County, Florida.

    Once there put in the case number in the search for case numbers:

    2008-CF-0010925 [These are NUMBERS]-O [This is the letter "O"]

    You will see the case file which is public record. Under the section that has the motions you will see the following:

    7/22/08 Court orders psychological evaluation by Dr. XXXXXXXX and Dr. XXXXX. [I deleted the names.]

    7/31/08 Mental evaluations filed.


    There are all kinds of goodies to see, if you're interested. Like how she filed as indigent, how she had a public defender, etc.
    T

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    Quote Originally Posted by debs View Post
    Then you misunderstand: There's a vast discussion to be had about whether she can claim insanity as a defense. I never implied that was all we could discuss, however. It seemed as though discussion was getting mired in whether she was socio or psycho....and since even the experts have difficulty with the distinction, it made more sense to allow that she could have gone "shopping" in the pathological personality disorders department and has aspects of a lot of things. To be "right" as an amateur with nothing but sideliine seats about something that experts have already evaluated her for seems a pissing contest that is more divisive than helpful. That is all.
    I guess I haven't seen much discussion about the insanity issue. I'd actually be interested in someone making a case for such a defense. It would be interesting to see what criteria they would focus on and how they could support their findings.

    I agree that most of the recent discussion is actually useless in helping us to better understand what makes Casey run. I didn't mean it to turn into a pissing contest and apologize for any part I had in that. I simply wanted to clarify that sociopath and psychopath are not recognized diagnoses.


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    Quote Originally Posted by debs View Post
    People with personality issues aren't like people who join a country club. Simply having "membership" in one disorder or another doesn't mean that the individual won't have his/her own unique slants. Arguing the differences is really an academic exercise that makes it difficult for even most professionals to agree. I believe the only issue at hand should be whether Casey can ever make the claim for temporary insanity. Insanity, we all must remember, is a legal term and not one used in psychology or psychiatry.

    You'll all recall she was administered a psych eval which was then sealed by the court. Until that comes out, we can only speculate. That isn't a bad thing, but getting mired in the details seems futile. We ultimately don't get to make that determination anyway. All we can do is observe and state what is observed while attempting to explain it. Observation and explanation are of course based on one's experiences in life.
    And that is your opinion. I happen to think there is much more at issue here than whether or not Casey can use the insanity defense.
    Of course, you do not have to take part in the discussion that takes place on this thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by softsoul View Post
    I guess I haven't seen much discussion about the insanity issue. I'd actually be interested in someone making a case for such a defense. It would be interesting to see what criteria they would focus on and how they could support their findings.

    I agree that most of the recent discussion is actually useless in helping us to better understand what makes Casey run. I didn't mean it to turn into a pissing contest and apologize for any part I had in that. I simply wanted to clarify that sociopath and psychopath are not recognized diagnoses.
    No biggie.. ya just gotta field certain things, ya know? We all know what the DSM is and what personality disorders are included in it.

    Anyway- I seriously doubt Jose will be stupid enough to try to use an insanity defense, what's your take?

    Hey, did you get my PM about sending me that email again? If you could re-send I'd appreciate it very much Tia!

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    Quote Originally Posted by OneLostGrl View Post
    And that is your opinion. I happen to think there is much more at issue here than whether or not Casey can use the insanity defense.
    Of course, you do not have to take part in the discussion that takes place on this thread.
    And YOU misunderstand: Again, I did not suggest that people should not discuss the matter. I merely am suggesting again that the differences between the two are so blurred as to be nearly impossible for the professionals to determine, and certainly Casey has been to the Personality Disorder Buffet more than once. I am saying it seems ridiculous for it to devolve into a "who is right/who is swrong" discussion.

    Sociopath or psychopath, as my dear grandmother used to say, "the chil' ain' right."

    But thank you for your kind dis-invitation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OneLostGrl View Post
    No biggie.. ya just gotta field certain things, ya know? We all know what the DSM is and what personality disorders are included in it.

    Anyway- I seriously doubt Jose will be stupid enough to try to use an insanity defense, what's your take?

    Hey, did you get my PM about sending me that email again? If you could re-send I'd appreciate it very much Tia!
    I'm not so sure that everyone knows what the DSM is, let alone what PDs are included. How many times have we seen it stated that those with PDs lack empathy?

    I haven't seen any evidence that I believe would lend itself to an insanity plea. That is why I'd love to see how one would go about building such a case. Certainly would be a different way of looking at the details.


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    Casey doesnt fit the criteria for a defense by reason of insanity .

    The defense has very clear parameters and criteria.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sharpar View Post
    Casey doesnt fit the criteria for a defense by reason of insanity .

    The defense has very clear parameters and criteria.
    I didn't think so either sharpar, that's why I assumed it would be a short conversation. However, if someone could present a case to the contrary I'd certainly listen.


  18. #18

    Remember your favorite tree?

    LadyGator, a good friend and long time WS member who hasn't had time to post, proffered an interesting theory. Here's a "what if" scenario to chew on based upon her theory.

    Casey has been lying to, and stealing from, family and friends for years. However, stealing from grandma's bank account was the straw that broke the camel's back. When Cindy found out about it early Sunday morning, she felt a range of emotions that ran the gamut from being furious to being frustrated to feeling completely violated. Children are very intuitive, hence...
    Caylee sensed that something was wrong with grandma. But didn't know what or why. She just knew grandma seemed really mad. And this frightened her bc she had never seen grandma that mad. When they arrived to visit her great grandpa, Caylee ran up to him to give him a hug. Caylee felt safe with great grandpa, and she hugged him closer, looking over her shoulder towards grandma to see if she was still mad. After their visit with great grandpa, grandma & Caylee went to great grandma's for some yummy dinner. But grandma and great grandma got into a fight and there was lots of screaming. Grandma ended up crying. Caylee began crying too.

    On the way home Cindy's thoughts were racing. Maybe it was time to try some 'tough love' on Casey—what her mother and brother had been urging her to do for years. She tossed that idea about but balked at the idea of sending her daughter off with her only grandchild. She hatched a plan. Cindy & Caylee arrived at home. Since Cindy had all day to ruminate on the theft mess, she was predictably tense when Casey walked through the door.

    Casey sensed rather than saw her mother's irritation and shrugged it off. She'd weathered their fights before, she'd do it again. Seeing Caylee standing in the hall, looking somewhat lost as she looked from mom to grandma back to mom, Casey swept her up in her arms, placed an air kiss on her forehead, and headed to her room. Cindy followed Casey down the hall, "We need to talk. Now."

    "Oh mom," Casey rolls her eyes at her mother's dramatics.

    "How could you do it?" Cindy can barely contain herself.

    "Do what?" Casey stops and turns to confront her mother.

    Cindy states more firmly that she feels, "You know what I'm talking about. How could you do that to your own grandma?" Cindy is in near hysterics at this point. "We've put up with your lying and stealing too long, Casey. This is it. You're moving. You're not welcome here."

    Casey, used to her mother's outbursts, shrugs her shoulders, "Fine. I'll pack mine and Caylee's things. We don't need you."

    As Casey moves towards Caylee's room, Cindy stops her, "You misunderstood me. You are not welcome here. Caylee will always be welcome. She is staying with us. If and when you get your life together you can come get her but not until you have proven you can be a real mother. Of all the things you've done, she's the best mistake you've ever made and we're not going to let you ruin her life too."

    Casey turns back toward her mom, her eyes holding a hint of danger, "Sorry, mom. She's my kid, I can take her when and where I want. And guess what? You can't do a thing about it."

    Turning, she walks into her room, slamming the door and locking it. Stopping suddenly, she groans as she remembers she and Amy had plans for the evening. Sending off a quick text message, she tells her she has "cramps" and is going to "crash at the boys" and "will call in the morning."

    Packing their backpacks, Casey heads out to the car with Caylee in tow. "I'll show her," she silently mutters to herself. Casey stops, gazes at Caylee and a diabolical plan is formed.

    Caylee has begun to fuss. It's been a long day and something is wrong with grandma and mommy but she doesn't know what. Caylee doesn't know what's wrong but when she sees the look in her mommy's eyes now she's real scared...

    Casey never really gets why people are mad at her. Or for that matter, why they make such a big deal out of stupid things. Okay, so she took some money from grandma. So what? It wasn't like she needed it. And anyway, grandma seemed as critical of her mother as her mother was of her. Grandma deserved it for making her mother so annoying and miserable to live with. And now, her mother thinks she can just kick her out and keep Caylee? Fat chance. If Caylee is the only good mistake that she has ever made, then it's about time to show her mother how quickly and completely that mistake can be made to go poof.

    That's when the plan was formed. Casey decided then and there to "dispose" of Caylee, knowing that doing so would hurt her mother more than anything she could say or do. To drive the knife deeper, she would bury Caylee in a location that her mother frequented, a constant reminder of what she made Casey do.

    From Casey's pov, this would kill two birds with one stone: Get back at her annoying mom and get rid of the one thing that stood in the way of her good time: Caylee.

    Long and short.

    In this proposed scenario, Caylee's disappearance has everything to do with the fight on June 15th after Cindy and Caylee returned from their visit with Cindy's father. By the time Cindy arrived at the rest home, she had been ruminating about Casey's behavior, her anger increasing by leaps and bounds. Caylee would, of course, sense that, which could explain the visit with great grandpa video.

    Cindy isn't one to let things go, either. That, and her mother has not so kindly reminded her what a lying thief Casey has become. Which, from her mother's point of view, makes Cindy a horrible mother. So, by the time Cindy spent yet another hour ruminating as she drove home, she has worked herself into an emotional frenzy. Which Casey, of course, senses. And hence, the blow-up.

    That said, I think they should ask Cindy for a list of her favorite "haunts" so to speak. Where does she like to hang out? Where does she go to find peace? To get away from the every day hustle and bustle of family life and work? I think LadyGator is right on. This is where Casey would bury Caylee. For maximum effect...maximum damage.

    And what might the "grand finale" be? Casey turning to her mother, looking her directly in the eyes, and smugly saying, "Remember your favorite tree?"

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    It would be the ultimate, spiteful thing to do if she buried Caylee in a place that is special to her Mom.

    I feel that this case is very similar to what we see when a spouse kills a child just so the other one can't get custody. Casey didn't want Caylee but she didn't want her Mom to have her either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ladygator View Post
    It would be the ultimate, spiteful thing to do if she buried Caylee in a place that is special to her Mom.

    I feel that this case is very similar to what we see when a spouse kills a child just so the other one can't get custody. Casey didn't want Caylee but she didn't want her Mom to have her either.
    Medea, anyone? Jason was the recipient of Medea's spite, finding his children killed in a vengeful retributive attack meant to strike deep into the heart of Jason.

    (Mythology, folks. Not real people. Psychologists call this type of act the Medea Complex.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ladygator View Post
    It would be the ultimate, spiteful thing to do if she buried Caylee in a place that is special to her Mom.

    I feel that this case is very similar to what we see when a spouse kills a child just so the other one can't get custody. Casey didn't want Caylee but she didn't want her Mom to have her either.
    I don't think she planned the "getting rid of" the body. IMO She was freaking out (that crazy rush of calls to mom's cell, home, mom's work, dad, home, mom's work, home, Jesse, etc..) and I don't think she had the capacity at that time to think clearly enough to put Caylee's body in a "mom friendly" place.

    ITA with your theory though!

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    An article in which psychiatrist Dr. Lucy Puryear implores Is Casey Anthony Another Susan Smith?

    The final sentence: "Casey Anthony? There was a book written in 1954 called The Bad Seed. A good read."

    I've seen The Bad Seed mentioned throughout the forums-- if anyone is interested, you can watch the film version online here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nancy botwin View Post
    An article in which psychiatrist Dr. Lucy Puryear implores Is Casey Anthony Another Susan Smith?

    The final sentence: "Casey Anthony? There was a book written in 1954 called The Bad Seed. A good read."

    I've seen The Bad Seed mentioned throughout the forums-- if anyone is interested, you can watch the film version online here.
    thanks for the link!
    will watch when I get a chance
    I have heard about this movie several times in this forum

  24. #24

    Thumbs up Her tears & what they may mean...

    Casey shed a few tears yesterday........she continued to wipe them ....to wipe them away or was she wiping them and observing them at the same time? You decide.

    I believe Casey was actually in "aw" at the fact that she was able to shed those few tears yesterday while standing next t Baez at the presser. She looked helpless and also looked to her hero of a lawyer in admiration.

    I saw the repeat of the clip many times and if you watch her carefully she is actually checking to see herself if they are actually tears. She kept them in check all of this time. She wasnt forcing those tears, they came and went as certain things were said. IMO, I dont think she is much of a cryer to start with. I think it even amazes her that they were in there.

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    Bringing this over from one of the other threads, as it really hit home with me, esp. the highlighted part.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brini View Post
    David, good on you for being a compassionate person.

    That being said, the answer is no.

    KC apparently stole from everyone around her, even her aged and disabled grandfather, because she did not want to work for a living.

    It appears that she coldly murdered a helpless baby who stood between her and her men and her parties. This, when she KNEW her own mother and at least one friend would have been happy to adopt Caylee. Then, she drove around for a week with the poor baby's body in the trunk of her car. It doesn't get much worse than that.

    Please don't be fooled by that dewey little face, David. There is no one home where KCs soul should be.

    Sociopaths are skilled chameleons. If you knew KC, and she sensed your compassion, she'd exploit that compassion.

    What if she was still free, and got pregnant, again? What if she married a man with a large death benefit on his life insurance policy?

    KC is not a victim. KC is a very dangerous preditor.

    MOO

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