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    Casey & Family Psychological Profile #2

    Discuss the family dynamics and psychological profiles of Casey and family in a constructive way, please do so here.
    thanks.

    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70260"]Casey & Family Psychological Profile #1[/ame]


    Psychopathy checklist:

    The 30 characteristics of the manipulator (psychopath, in French "perverse narcissist") from the book "Les manipulateurs sont parmi nous" by Isabelle Nazare Aga.

    In order for a person to be a psychopath, at least 14 items from this list must be present as permanent traits. For example item 18: almost everyone has told a lie at some points in their life, but item 18 only applies if a person uses lies as a habitual strategy.

    [] 1 Burdens others with guilt while appealing to family ties, friendship, professional ethics;
    [] 2 evades responsibilities or pushes them onto others;
    [] 3 remains vague in the communication of his/her claims, needs, feelings and opinions;
    [] 4 often gives vague answers;
    [] 5 changes opinion, behaviour and feelings depending on people and situations;
    [] 6 makes use of logical arguments to camouflage claims;
    [] 7 wants to make others believe that they have to be perfect, that they can never change their mind, that they have to know everything and have to respond immediately to claims and questions;
    [] 8 disputes the qualities, the ability and the personality of others;
    criticises without giving that impression, despises and condemns;
    [] 9 lets others convey his/her messages;
    [] 10 creates havoc (fights), creates distrust, divides to be better able to rule;
    [] 11 positions himself/herself as a victim to elicit compassion;
    [] 12 ignores or does not honour requests even if he/she declares that they will be taken care of;
    [] 13 misuses ethical principles of others to serve own interests;
    [] 14 threatens in underhanded ways or commits open chantage (blackmail);
    [] 15 suddenly changes the subject in the course of a conversation;
    [] 16 avoids or flees relationships and togetherness;
    [] 17 targets the ignorance of others and creates an impression of superiority;
    [] 18 lies;
    [] 19 tells lies to find out the truth
    [] 20 is egocentric;
    [] 21 can be jealous;
    [] 22 does not bear criticism and negates evidence;
    [] 23 does not care for the rights, opinions and wishes of others;
    [] 24 often uses the very last moment to give commands to others or to instigate them to act;
    [] 25 his/her words seem to be logical or coherent while the attitude and behaviour give evidence of the opposite;
    [] 26 he/she exerts himself/herself in making compliments in order to gain your sympathy, gives presents, becomes suddenly very caring for you;
    [] 27 gives you an uneasy, unfree feeling;
    [] 28 extremely expert in accomplishing own goals, but at the expense of others;
    [] 29 pressures us to do things that we would not do of our own accord;
    [] 30 is the subject of conversations all the time, even if he/she is not present.
    Last edited by BondJamesBond; 01-06-2011 at 11:33 PM. Reason: adjust title

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    Casey's psychological profile #2

    Please continue posting here.

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    <Wikipedia as an authoritative source? Surely, you jest?>

    Interesting that you say that after you provided no links in either post...just a theory that you present as facts and the "truth" regarding any differences between sociopaths and psychopaths. However, are you disputing that the quote is indeed the official stance of the APA? If you are, I suggest you pick up a copy of the DSM and review. If not, what is your point?

    As I indicated in another post, what you put out there as "fact" is only one of many theories involving the definitions and distinctions of psychopathy and sociopathy vs. antisocial personality disorder. Again, I ask, please provide a link and explain that you are sharing what you believe to be an accurate description of such differences, and not the only or the accepted definitions of such "syndromes". I am not disputing the information you are sharing as I know there are many who have this view. Instead I have issue with how you present it...as fact. How many different distinctions and definitions of sociopath and psychopath would say are out there? There are significant differences among any diagnositic category within the DSM...not all people diagnosed with Bipolar exhibit the same symptoms or intensity of symptoms, not all those with OCD, PTSD, etc., etc. It isn't a matter of overlooking differences, within people or within a diagnosis. It is a matter of stating 'this is one way to look at it" rather than "this is how it is."


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    Quote Originally Posted by softsoul View Post
    <Wikipedia as an authoritative source? Surely, you jest?>

    Interesting that you say that after you provided no links in either post...just a theory that you present as facts and the "truth" regarding any differences between sociopaths and psychopaths. However, are you disputing that the quote is indeed the official stance of the APA? If you are, I suggest you pick up a copy of the DSM and review. If not, what is your point?

    As I indicated in another post, what you put out there as "fact" is only one of many theories involving the definitions and distinctions of psychopathy and sociopathy vs. antisocial personality disorder. Again, I ask, please provide a link and explain that you are sharing what you believe to be an accurate description of such differences, and not the only or the accepted definitions of such "syndromes". I am not disputing the information you are sharing as I know there are many who have this view. Instead I have issue with how you present it...as fact. How many different distinctions and definitions of sociopath and psychopath would say are out there? There are significant differences among any diagnositic category within the DSM...not all people diagnosed with Bipolar exhibit the same symptoms or intensity of symptoms, not all those with OCD, PTSD, etc., etc. It isn't a matter of overlooking differences, within people or within a diagnosis. It is a matter of stating 'this is one way to look at it" rather than "this is how it is."

    "Sociopathy" and "psychopathy" are alternate names for "antisocial personality disorder." DSM changes the names, from time to time. They all refer to the same constellation of symptoms. They are not different syndromes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brini View Post
    "Sociopathy" and "psychopathy" are alternate names for "antisocial personality disorder." DSM changes the names, from time to time. They all refer to the same constellation of symptoms. They are not different syndromes.
    I'm more inclined to consider some type of psychosis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elfie View Post
    I'm more inclined to consider some type of psychosis.
    KC is not psychotic. If she was, she might be able to live productively on the correct medication. Psychosis is hard to miss, and would have been noticed early on. Thought disorders, including frank delusions and/or hallucinations, inattention to personal appearance, deficiencies in self-care....
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    Quote Originally Posted by elfie View Post
    I'm more inclined to consider some type of psychosis.
    Psychosis is complete disassociation from reality. People with psychoses often cannot speak, walk, or create logical scentences. Also, people with psychoses 9 times out of 10 are aquited based on insanity, because of the severity.

    I think she has a neuroses at best, but I am skeptical of that as well.

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    As has been stated by others, NO MATTER WHAT KC's official diagnosis might be (cause I think we can argue about this until the cows come home and not resolve it)-----------HOW DID SHE GET THAT WAY? WHAT CAUSED IT? I believe that is the answer.........not the disorder itself. MOO

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    Quote Originally Posted by IWannaKnow View Post
    As has been stated by others, NO MATTER WHAT KC's official diagnosis might be (cause I think we can argue about this until the cows come home and not resolve it)-----------HOW DID SHE GET THAT WAY? WHAT CAUSED IT? I believe that is the answer.........not the disorder itself. MOO
    Some think it's genetic, some think bad background. Most therapists seem to think it's both.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brini View Post
    "Sociopathy" and "psychopathy" are alternate names for "antisocial personality disorder." DSM changes the names, from time to time. They all refer to the same constellation of symptoms. They are not different syndromes.
    I agree that these terms are often used interchangeably to describe individuals with ASPD. However, psychopathy and ASPD are not synonymous and interchangeable terms. While only ASPD is currently available as a DSM diagnosis, psychopathy is a very real syndrome/classification -- psychopathy is one of the most extensively researched and intensely debated topics in psychology. Psychopathic inventories and classification systems are often applied to forensic populations to assess future dangerousness and propensity to recidivate, among other things. Almost all psychopaths can be diagnosed with ASPD. Many individuals with ASPD cannot be classified as psychopaths.
    IMO ASPD is a rather flat category based upon conduct and behavior, whereas psychopathy contemplates behavioral, motivational and emotional traits. When I say psychopath, I don't mean ASPD. I mean ASPD-plus.
    Diane Downs was diagnosed as having HPD, NPD and ASPD. She was also classified as a psychopath.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nancy botwin View Post
    I agree that these terms are often used interchangeably to describe individuals with ASPD. However, psychopathy and ASPD are not synonymous and interchangeable terms. While only ASPD is currently available as a DSM diagnosis, psychopathy is a very real syndrome/classification -- psychopathy is one of the most extensively researched and intensely debated topics in psychology. Psychopathic inventories and classification systems are often applied to forensic populations to assess future dangerousness and propensity to recidivate, among other things. Almost all psychopaths can be diagnosed with ASPD. Many individuals with ASPD cannot be classified as psychopaths.
    IMO ASPD is a rather flat category based upon conduct and behavior, whereas psychopathy contemplates behavioral, motivational and emotional traits. When I say psychopath, I don't mean ASPD. I mean ASPD-plus.
    Diane Downs was diagnosed as having HPD, NPD and ASPD. She was also classified as a psychopath.
    Downs had a dead-on shrink! :-)
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    In my college courses we are not allowed to use Wikipedia as a source....

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    People with personality issues aren't like people who join a country club. Simply having "membership" in one disorder or another doesn't mean that the individual won't have his/her own unique slants. Arguing the differences is really an academic exercise that makes it difficult for even most professionals to agree. I believe the only issue at hand should be whether Casey can ever make the claim for temporary insanity. Insanity, we all must remember, is a legal term and not one used in psychology or psychiatry.

    You'll all recall she was administered a psych eval which was then sealed by the court. Until that comes out, we can only speculate. That isn't a bad thing, but getting mired in the details seems futile. We ultimately don't get to make that determination anyway. All we can do is observe and state what is observed while attempting to explain it. Observation and explanation are of course based on one's experiences in life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by debs View Post
    People with personality issues aren't like people who join a country club. Simply having "membership" in one disorder or another doesn't mean that the individual won't have his/her own unique slants. Arguing the differences is really an academic exercise that makes it difficult for even most professionals to agree. I believe the only issue at hand should be whether Casey can ever make the claim for temporary insanity. Insanity, we all must remember, is a legal term and not one used in psychology or psychiatry.

    You'll all recall she was administered a psych eval which was then sealed by the court. Until that comes out, we can only speculate. That isn't a bad thing, but getting mired in the details seems futile. We ultimately don't get to make that determination anyway. All we can do is observe and state what is observed while attempting to explain it. Observation and explanation are of course based on one's experiences in life.
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    Quote Originally Posted by debs View Post
    People with personality issues aren't like people who join a country club. Simply having "membership" in one disorder or another doesn't mean that the individual won't have his/her own unique slants. Arguing the differences is really an academic exercise that makes it difficult for even most professionals to agree. I believe the only issue at hand should be whether Casey can ever make the claim for temporary insanity. Insanity, we all must remember, is a legal term and not one used in psychology or psychiatry.

    You'll all recall she was administered a psych eval which was then sealed by the court. Until that comes out, we can only speculate. That isn't a bad thing, but getting mired in the details seems futile. We ultimately don't get to make that determination anyway. All we can do is observe and state what is observed while attempting to explain it. Observation and explanation are of course based on one's experiences in life.
    I agree with your post, well most of it anyway. For example, John Doe and Jane Doe "fit" the criteria for sociopath. Are there significant differences between John and Jane? John Doe will also have significant similarities with Jake Doe who was determined to be a psychopath by someone's definition. Throw into the mix the fact that there are thousands of studies which use hundreds of definitions of such constructs. There are also different ways of measuring each characteristic. You then have very different theoretical views which affect how one defines symptoms and causes.

    Diagnosis of mental health problems is not an exact science. You commonly see a person given completely different diagnoses from two or more equally qualified clinicians. You now see the difficulty the APA has when they are faced with the tasks of developing diagnostic categories. Their goal is to be accurate/specific without attempting to fit people into even smaller "boxes".

    The part of your post I don't agree with is that our interest here should be confined to the insanity issue. I think that would be a short conversation. I'm all for sharing opinions as long as we clearly state they are opinions. I guess the only "opinion" that matters regarding the legal aspect with be the diagnosis Casey receives in any psych eval presented to the court. That diagnosis will come from the DSM-IV-TR.


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    Quote Originally Posted by softsoul View Post
    The part of your post I don't agree with is that our interest here should be confined to the insanity issue. I think that would be a short conversation. I'm all for sharing opinions as long as we clearly state they are opinions. I guess the only "opinion" that matters regarding the legal aspect with be the diagnosis Casey receives in any psych eval presented to the court. That diagnosis will come from the DSM-IV-TR.
    Then you misunderstand: There's a vast discussion to be had about whether she can claim insanity as a defense. I never implied that was all we could discuss, however. It seemed as though discussion was getting mired in whether she was socio or psycho....and since even the experts have difficulty with the distinction, it made more sense to allow that she could have gone "shopping" in the pathological personality disorders department and has aspects of a lot of things. To be "right" as an amateur with nothing but sideliine seats about something that experts have already evaluated her for seems a pissing contest that is more divisive than helpful. That is all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by debs View Post
    Then you misunderstand: There's a vast discussion to be had about whether she can claim insanity as a defense. I never implied that was all we could discuss, however. It seemed as though discussion was getting mired in whether she was socio or psycho....and since even the experts have difficulty with the distinction, it made more sense to allow that she could have gone "shopping" in the pathological personality disorders department and has aspects of a lot of things. To be "right" as an amateur with nothing but sideliine seats about something that experts have already evaluated her for seems a pissing contest that is more divisive than helpful. That is all.
    I guess I haven't seen much discussion about the insanity issue. I'd actually be interested in someone making a case for such a defense. It would be interesting to see what criteria they would focus on and how they could support their findings.

    I agree that most of the recent discussion is actually useless in helping us to better understand what makes Casey run. I didn't mean it to turn into a pissing contest and apologize for any part I had in that. I simply wanted to clarify that sociopath and psychopath are not recognized diagnoses.


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    Quote Originally Posted by debs View Post
    Then you misunderstand: There's a vast discussion to be had about whether she can claim insanity as a defense. I never implied that was all we could discuss, however. It seemed as though discussion was getting mired in whether she was socio or psycho....and since even the experts have difficulty with the distinction, it made more sense to allow that she could have gone "shopping" in the pathological personality disorders department and has aspects of a lot of things. To be "right" as an amateur with nothing but sideliine seats about something that experts have already evaluated her for seems a pissing contest that is more divisive than helpful. That is all.
    Sociopath and psychopath are different names for the same personality disorder. Psychotic is a whole different thing.

    KC does not fit the criteria for legal insanity, because she knew she did wrong and tried to escape the consequences.

    Axis II disordered people are not psychotic, though they can become psychotic. KC is not psychotic. She is sociopathic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by debs View Post
    You'll all recall she was administered a psych eval which was then sealed by the court. Until that comes out, we can only speculate. That isn't a bad thing, but getting mired in the details seems futile. We ultimately don't get to make that determination anyway. All we can do is observe and state what is observed while attempting to explain it. Observation and explanation are of course based on one's experiences in life.
    If you look at the motions and court file you can see that two different doctors evaluated Casey (back when there were undisclosed holds on her for bail). At that time I took note of the doctors names and looked them up in Florida to see if either had any particular specializations. Both looked to me like they were used by the Court from time to time and nothing jumped out at me as either of them laying heavily in any particular specialization. I can look again if anyone is interested (I won't name names but you can look them up if you want to see for yourselves).
    T

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theonly1 View Post
    If you look at the motions and court file you can see that two different doctors evaluated Casey (back when there were undisclosed holds on her for bail). At that time I took note of the doctors names and looked them up in Florida to see if either had any particular specializations. Both looked to me like they were used by the Court from time to time and nothing jumped out at me as either of them laying heavily in any particular specialization. I can look again if anyone is interested (I won't name names but you can look them up if you want to see for yourselves).
    T
    Could you pm the names? I want to check something out. TIA

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    Quote Originally Posted by winteryns View Post
    Could you pm the names? I want to check something out. TIA
    Sure. And if you want to be Nosey Nancy then put "My Orange Clerk" in a google search engine or click on the My Orange Clerk site for Orlando, Orange County, Florida.

    Once there put in the case number in the search for case numbers:

    2008-CF-0010925 [These are NUMBERS]-O [This is the letter "O"]

    You will see the case file which is public record. Under the section that has the motions you will see the following:

    7/22/08 Court orders psychological evaluation by Dr. XXXXXXXX and Dr. XXXXX. [I deleted the names.]

    7/31/08 Mental evaluations filed.


    There are all kinds of goodies to see, if you're interested. Like how she filed as indigent, how she had a public defender, etc.
    T

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    Quote Originally Posted by debs View Post
    People with personality issues aren't like people who join a country club. Simply having "membership" in one disorder or another doesn't mean that the individual won't have his/her own unique slants. Arguing the differences is really an academic exercise that makes it difficult for even most professionals to agree. I believe the only issue at hand should be whether Casey can ever make the claim for temporary insanity. Insanity, we all must remember, is a legal term and not one used in psychology or psychiatry.

    You'll all recall she was administered a psych eval which was then sealed by the court. Until that comes out, we can only speculate. That isn't a bad thing, but getting mired in the details seems futile. We ultimately don't get to make that determination anyway. All we can do is observe and state what is observed while attempting to explain it. Observation and explanation are of course based on one's experiences in life.
    And that is your opinion. I happen to think there is much more at issue here than whether or not Casey can use the insanity defense.
    Of course, you do not have to take part in the discussion that takes place on this thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OneLostGrl View Post
    And that is your opinion. I happen to think there is much more at issue here than whether or not Casey can use the insanity defense.
    Of course, you do not have to take part in the discussion that takes place on this thread.
    And YOU misunderstand: Again, I did not suggest that people should not discuss the matter. I merely am suggesting again that the differences between the two are so blurred as to be nearly impossible for the professionals to determine, and certainly Casey has been to the Personality Disorder Buffet more than once. I am saying it seems ridiculous for it to devolve into a "who is right/who is swrong" discussion.

    Sociopath or psychopath, as my dear grandmother used to say, "the chil' ain' right."

    But thank you for your kind dis-invitation.

  24. #24

    Thumbs up Her tears & what they may mean...

    Casey shed a few tears yesterday........she continued to wipe them ....to wipe them away or was she wiping them and observing them at the same time? You decide.

    I believe Casey was actually in "aw" at the fact that she was able to shed those few tears yesterday while standing next t Baez at the presser. She looked helpless and also looked to her hero of a lawyer in admiration.

    I saw the repeat of the clip many times and if you watch her carefully she is actually checking to see herself if they are actually tears. She kept them in check all of this time. She wasnt forcing those tears, they came and went as certain things were said. IMO, I dont think she is much of a cryer to start with. I think it even amazes her that they were in there.

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    Bringing this over from one of the other threads, as it really hit home with me, esp. the highlighted part.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brini View Post
    David, good on you for being a compassionate person.

    That being said, the answer is no.

    KC apparently stole from everyone around her, even her aged and disabled grandfather, because she did not want to work for a living.

    It appears that she coldly murdered a helpless baby who stood between her and her men and her parties. This, when she KNEW her own mother and at least one friend would have been happy to adopt Caylee. Then, she drove around for a week with the poor baby's body in the trunk of her car. It doesn't get much worse than that.

    Please don't be fooled by that dewey little face, David. There is no one home where KCs soul should be.

    Sociopaths are skilled chameleons. If you knew KC, and she sensed your compassion, she'd exploit that compassion.

    What if she was still free, and got pregnant, again? What if she married a man with a large death benefit on his life insurance policy?

    KC is not a victim. KC is a very dangerous preditor.

    MOO

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