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  1. #1
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    Which came first, Strangulation or Head Trauma???

    Does anyone have any idea of which of these came first? In The autopsy it says that there is def petechia present which leads me to believe the strangulation, but then that would have been present even if there was head trauma which she did not die from, so Im confused as to what had to happen first? The blood under the fracture (sp?)seemed to indicate that she was alive while bleeding? but then there was not a lot of blood so Im still confused as to what happened first. Please someone help!

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by PolyGraph View Post
    Does anyone have any idea of which of these came first? In The autopsy it says that there is def petechia present which leads me to believe the strangulation, but then that would have been present even if there was head trauma which she did not die from, so Im confused as to what had to happen first? The blood under the fracture (sp?)seemed to indicate that she was alive while bleeding? but then there was not a lot of blood so Im still confused as to what happened first. Please someone help!
    PolyGraph,
    Hello there. Both may have occured at the same time, e.g. manual strangulation followed by release which allows JonBenet to fall and hit some domestic object?

    Alternately the head blow may have occured first followed by a deliberate asphyxiation intending to finish JonBenet off, or its simple staging?

    What the autopsy is saying is that both events head blow and strangulation directly contributed towards JonBenet's death. That is they both reduced the flow of oxygen around the body thereby asphyxiating JonBenet.

    So whichever theory you think applies might help you decide which event came first?


    .

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by PolyGraph View Post
    Does anyone have any idea of which of these came first? In The autopsy it says that there is def petechia present which leads me to believe the strangulation, but then that would have been present even if there was head trauma which she did not die from, so Im confused as to what had to happen first? The blood under the fracture (sp?)seemed to indicate that she was alive while bleeding? but then there was not a lot of blood so Im still confused as to what happened first. Please someone help!
    Some experts feel that the head blow came first, but that she lived (though she was unconscious and possibly comatose) for up to an hour after. She may have appeared dead at that point, with breathing too shallow to notice, pale and cool to the touch, which happens when you go into shock as well. You are correct that petechiae occur only while alive. She was alive when strangled. Yet, there was no purpose to bashing the skull of a dead person, and even though it was a relatively small amount, the bleeding under the scalp and the mild swelling of the brain indicate she was alive when she was bashed on the head as well.
    Some feel that she was garroted first, screamed, and then bashed on the head to shut her up. Either way, the 2 events occurred fairly close together.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    Some experts feel that the head blow came first, but that she lived (though she was unconscious and possibly comatose) for up to an hour after. She may have appeared dead at that point, with breathing too shallow to notice, pale and cool to the touch, which happens when you go into shock as well. You are correct that petechiae occur only while alive. She was alive when strangled. Yet, there was no purpose to bashing the skull of a dead person, and even though it was a relatively small amount, the bleeding under the scalp and the mild swelling of the brain indicate she was alive when she was bashed on the head as well.
    Some feel that she was garroted first, screamed, and then bashed on the head to shut her up. Either way, the 2 events occurred fairly close together.
    DeeDee249,
    Yet, there was no purpose to bashing the skull of a dead person
    Not unless the bashing is intended as a fake cause of death? It appears to me that JonBenet was deliberately killed e.g. no medical assistance, then either whacked on the head or garroted, and with the interval between each injury event being small, the major concern seems to have been in finishing JonBenet off?

    and even though it was a relatively small amount, the bleeding under the scalp and the mild swelling of the brain indicate she was alive when she was bashed on the head as well.
    So does this suggest that the head blow came second, otherwise the internal bleeding and swelling would have been greater?

    If the headblow occurred first either accidently or intentionally but not intended to be mortal, why was JonBenet denied medical assistance, whilst when Burke whacked her with a golf club, she was off to hospital immediately?

    If you look at the following pictures then one thing seems apparent:

    Picture 1.

    Note the bruising beneath the ligature furrow, it appears on either side of her neck, and is not circumferential, there is a gap between the bruising.

    Picture 2.

    This is a sideview of neck and garrote, note how less embedded the furrow actually appears?

    Picture 3.

    Now although it appears obvious there is only one circumferential furrow to be seen on the back of her neck. Should there not be two, the other corresponding with the bruising beneath the ligature furrow at the front of her neck as seen on Picture 1.?

    Does the bruising lying beneath the ligature furrow, as seen on pictures 1 and 2, suggest a manual strangulation, with the garroting intended to mask this event?

    This assumption seems consistent with the forensic evidence and any consequent staging?


    .
    Last edited by UKGuy; 09-02-2008 at 08:59 AM.

  5. #5
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    what do u people on here do .just delete the posts that dont go with your theory i have commented on this 3 times now yet its not here anywhere ,

  6. #6
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    How about this?

    Sex play. Strangulation was not intended to cause death. When her body began to convulse and attempts at resuscitation did not work, a "mercy" killing was conducted by way of head trauma to cause a quick death.

  7. #7
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    She screamed, and was bashed on the head to silence her, IMHO.

    The only method of strangulation in the autopsy report is ligature strangulation; no mention or suggestion of manual strangulation. I don't know what would be gained by deliberately omitting it, and I would hope Meyer could tell if such had occurred and played a part in her death.

    But, 'ya never know.
    THIS time, we get it RIGHT!

    This post is my constitutionally-protected opinion. Please do not copy or take it anywhere else.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    She screamed, and was bashed on the head to silence her, IMHO.

    The only method of strangulation in the autopsy report is ligature strangulation; no mention or suggestion of manual strangulation. I don't know what would be gained by deliberately omitting it, and I would hope Meyer could tell if such had occurred and played a part in her death.

    But, 'ya never know.
    DeeDee249,

    The only method of strangulation in the autopsy report is ligature strangulation; no mention or suggestion of manual strangulation.
    Sure and that is because he is itemising what he reckons are the contributing factors towards the cause of death.

    e.g.

    CLINICOPATHLOGIC CORRELATION: Cause of death of this six year old
    female is asphyxia by strangulation associated with craniocerebral
    trauma.
    Note the missing word ligature, so patently the prosecution if there were ever a trial, might have a field day quizzing Coroner Meyer precisely what he meant by asphyxia by strangulation?

    She screamed, and was bashed on the head to silence her, IMHO.
    Possibly, why not place a hand over her mouth, why bash her on the head?

    Lets assume you are correct, someone has whacked JonBenet on the head with the ensuing cranial damage iterated in the autopsy report. This must mean that the bruising lying beneath the ligature furrow resulted from an initial attempt to garrote JonBenet. Now since there is no corresponding ligature furrow on the back of her neck, maybe they never tried forcibly enough, so moved the cord up an inch or two and tried again, this time adding the piece of paintbrush handle?

    So we go immediately from a head injury, assumed to be unintended, to a full scale homicide complete with garrote staging etc?

    imo something does not add up here, there is some evidence missing, maybe Coroner Meyer did redact some evidence, his opaque use of terminology e.g. birefringent foreign material lends some weight here, since wood, paint or cellulose splinter would have been just as informative. It may be he was attempting to give the impression that the cause of death was not inconsistent with the staging?



    .

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocket View Post
    Sex play. Strangulation was not intended to cause death. When her body began to convulse and attempts at resuscitation did not work, a "mercy" killing was conducted by way of head trauma to cause a quick death.
    rocket,
    So why not simply smother her, which also keeps her quiet?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocket View Post
    Sex play. Strangulation was not intended to cause death. When her body began to convulse and attempts at resuscitation did not work, a "mercy" killing was conducted by way of head trauma to cause a quick death.
    That's the Wecht theory, rocket.

    The pathologists who worked with the police said that the head blow was fully developed. Werner Spitz, Henry Lee and Ronald Wright all said it could have been anywhere from ten minutes to an hour.
    I'm as mad as HELL and I'm NOT gonna take it anymore!.


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    PolyGraph,
    Hello there. Both may have occured at the same time, e.g. manual strangulation followed by release which allows JonBenet to fall and hit some domestic object?

    Alternately the head blow may have occured first followed by a deliberate asphyxiation intending to finish JonBenet off, or its simple staging?

    What the autopsy is saying is that both events head blow and strangulation directly contributed towards JonBenet's death. That is they both reduced the flow of oxygen around the body thereby asphyxiating JonBenet.

    So whichever theory you think applies might help you decide which event came first?


    .
    haha Im still confused, your right though, both could have occurred at the same time. However it would be difficult to do both at the EXACT same time, so if both did occur at the same time, it would fit the next posters theory of how maybe she was strangled, that didnt work so she was bashed. That leads me to believe in the sex abuse theory (I am an avid RDI theorist)I had. Ive always thought if it was an accident then Patsy did it, If it were on purpose then the father did it to cover something up MOO. I hate saying anything to badly about Patsy though, from others viewpoints that knew her, she seemed like a decent person. MOO

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    Some experts feel that the head blow came first, but that she lived (though she was unconscious and possibly comatose) for up to an hour after. She may have appeared dead at that point, with breathing too shallow to notice, pale and cool to the touch, which happens when you go into shock as well. You are correct that petechiae occur only while alive. She was alive when strangled. Yet, there was no purpose to bashing the skull of a dead person, and even though it was a relatively small amount, the bleeding under the scalp and the mild swelling of the brain indicate she was alive when she was bashed on the head as well.
    Some feel that she was garroted first, screamed, and then bashed on the head to shut her up. Either way, the 2 events occurred fairly close together.
    that would explain the scream the neighbors heard too!

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKGuy View Post
    DeeDee249,

    Not unless the bashing is intended as a fake cause of death? It appears to me that JonBenet was deliberately killed e.g. no medical assistance, then either whacked on the head or garroted, and with the interval between each injury event being small, the major concern seems to have been in finishing JonBenet off?


    So does this suggest that the head blow came second, otherwise the internal bleeding and swelling would have been greater?

    If the headblow occurred first either accidently or intentionally but not intended to be mortal, why was JonBenet denied medical assistance, whilst when Burke whacked her with a golf club, she was off to hospital immediately?

    If you look at the following pictures then one thing seems apparent:

    Picture 1.

    Note the bruising beneath the ligature furrow, it appears on either side of her neck, and is not circumferential, there is a gap between the bruising.

    Picture 2.

    This is a sideview of neck and garrote, note how less embedded the furrow actually appears?

    Picture 3.

    Now although it appears obvious there is only one circumferential furrow to be seen on the back of her neck. Should there not be two, the other corresponding with the bruising beneath the ligature furrow at the front of her neck as seen on Picture 1.?

    Does the bruising lying beneath the ligature furrow, as seen on pictures 1 and 2, suggest a manual strangulation, with the garroting intended to mask this event?

    This assumption seems consistent with the forensic evidence and any consequent staging?


    .
    Geez, I didnt want to see those pics again, but i see what your saying! Poor poor baby, I want to kill whoever did that to her!!! I see what you are refering to about the ligature bruising on one side but not the other, it doesnt seem possible, ive said that from the beginning (why would anyone strangle a child in such a fashion when hands could have easily done the trick? unless it was a weird sex fantasy.) anyway, those marks on the front of her neck, they look like finger nail marks ive always thought that, but are they nail marks or petechia? (sp?).

    Unfortunately I still wish somehow she could be exhumed so we could find out what happened first because if there is a way to tell then it would answer many questions. I dont understand if Ramseys claimed they didnt have anything to do with this, why bury her so quickly? I would want my daughters body studied until they found the son of a beee that did it! MOO

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocket View Post
    Sex play. Strangulation was not intended to cause death. When her body began to convulse and attempts at resuscitation did not work, a "mercy" killing was conducted by way of head trauma to cause a quick death.
    ewww the thought ......

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee249 View Post
    She screamed, and was bashed on the head to silence her, IMHO.

    The only method of strangulation in the autopsy report is ligature strangulation; no mention or suggestion of manual strangulation. I don't know what would be gained by deliberately omitting it, and I would hope Meyer could tell if such had occurred and played a part in her death.

    But, 'ya never know.
    An experienced Coroner should know, i saw something on tv where they said if the person was strangled manually, usually there is this certain bone in their neck that would break from the pressure. I dont recall seeing in the report about this broken bone. Its so confusing.

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